US FF(X) Program

Awesome. Let’s hope additional yards can come online fast.

Phelan added that the new class will be acquired using a lead shipyard, with a competitive follow-on strategy for multi-yard construction.

“Shipyards will be measured against one outcome: delivering combat power to the fleet as fast as possible,” Phelan said.
 
They should lengthen the hull, because it is too short compared to European frigates.
 
They should lengthen the hull, because it is too short compared to European frigates.
NSC is almost exactly the same dimensions as the French FDI, so it's not necessarily a size issue. Same waterline length, similar deck heights.

The difference is FDI is a much more modern, stealthy platform designed for the get go for a heavy ASW and AAW payload (sensors + weapons). NSC might be able to get there with a substantial redesign, which is not on the cards.

NSC vs FDI 10px=1m.png
 
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NSC is almost exactly the same dimensions as the French FDI, so it's not necessarily a size issue. Same waterline length, similar deck heights.

The difference is FDI is a much more modern, stealthy platform designed for the get go for a heavy ASW and AAW payload (sensors + weapons). NSC might be able to get there with a substantial redesign, which is not on the cards.

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Its likely there doing an rework on the older FF4923 and PF4921 designs for NSC with the more modern sensors and stuff like that but rn i would simply be happy with them having an VDS and a Helicopter
 
I can't see this even having steel cut before 2027 at the earliest. The SecNav can't just pick a builder. There are procedures and rules for contracts etc plus Congress needs to weigh in on this. But this is typical of this administration...
 
I really have misgivings about this idea. From reading this USNI article it appears that;

"Last week at the U.S. Naval Institute’s Defense Forum Washington, Jason Potter, who is performing the duties of Assistant Secretary of the Navy for research, development and acquisition (RDA), said the service would base the new frigate on an existing design with minimal design changes."

and

"One of the few changes the Navy intends to make to the NSC design is to construct a platform above the open boat deck for containerized mission packages, the officials said. For example, the Army and Lockheed Martin developed the MK-70 Typhon vertical launch system within the dimensions of a 40-foot shipping container. The Navy is developing more containerized packages that can be swapped from ship to ship."

As such, unless I am misunderstanding, the intent is to use the WHSL -/NSC as the basis and not one of the previous design proposals that HII had made for a Frigate-ized variant of the NSC design.

Looking at the inboard profile of the NSC that H-K posted above suggests that the NSC isn't terrible heavily armed and that the machinery is all concentrated amidships in adjacent spaces. And in addition, although the USCG uses "some" of the same standards as the USN, they definitely do not use all the same standards, especially with regards to damage stability and survivability.

As such, to me at least, other than the lower top end speed, its not fully clear that a Frigate based on the "NSC with minimal design changes" would really be better armed than the LCSs, and far less capable than the FFG(X).

While in the past I always kind of feared that the requirements proposed for the FFG(X) would potentially lead to a larger and more costly ship that would not be capable of being procured in large enough numbers, to me it appears that the FF(X), at least as hinted at in the USNI article, may be going too far in the opposite direction, falling too close to an LCS with only a minimal/limited amount of add-on modules.

Ultimately, I kind of was thinking that an American ship similar to the Chinese Type 054A would represent a potential nice middle ground, perhaps outfitted with a 57mm gun, 16-32 VLS cells (for ESSM etc) supported by a single face rotating SPY-6 array, room for some SSMs, a large hangar and maybe the ability to carry a towed sonar, etc.

Regards
Pat
 
If the FREMM & Type 26 are guided missile frigates, the National Security Cutter-derived warship is a plain corvette…I’m talking KV, not KVG. There is no VLS, & I’m skeptical about the compatibility of containerized SM-6s with the SPS-80/TRS-4D.

Does anyone know if the NSC is quietened or if it was built with adding a towed sonar as a viable possibility?

The lack of missiles means that this warship shouldn’t fight inside the second island chain or the Persian Gulf/Red Sea/Baltic without a protector, right. So, to be additive in a war against China, this KV needs to be an ASW convoy escort, east of Guam…

For the Flight II design, can we trade some of the NSC’s tremendous range for quietening, a good VDS, & a few VLS for CMS-integrated ESSMs & VLAs?

From a sea keeping & machinery stand-point, the NSC is a fine ship, but unless they find a way to add ASW & AAW systems, I don’t see how it adds value commensurate with its price tag.

And the US Navy still needs a Cruiser, a Frigate, and eventually something to replace a 40-year old Destroyer design.
 
And the US Navy still needs a Cruiser, a Frigate, and eventually something to replace a 40-year old Destroyer design.
The replacement for the 40-year old destroyer will also fill the role the Ticonderogas used to occupy. While the ship that's the topic here is intended to eventually grow into a proper Frigate at a later point in it's development after the initial ships are of a more conservative capability.
 
Basically the idea seems to be going through the series of subsequent iterations. The early frigates (Flight 1?) would basically be "Legend"-class cutters with rear boat deck rebuild into missile container deck. The subsequent (Flight 2?) are supposed to get some kind of anti-submarine setup - probably in terms of torpedo tubes and hull sonar, since the rear deck would already be used by missile containers and hardly allow much space to VDS (I might be wrong, though). The Flight 3 might get VLS or something like that.
 
While in the past I always kind of feared that the requirements proposed for the FFG(X) would potentially lead to a larger and more costly ship that would not be capable of being procured in large enough numbers, to me it appears that the FF(X), at least as hinted at in the USNI article, may be going too far in the opposite direction, falling too close to an LCS with only a minimal/limited amount of add-on modules.
There are also industrial problem. The LCS were at least build relatively fast (the last ones took about two years to construct). The NSC/"Legend"-class took at least three years each.
 
Basically the idea seems to be going through the series of subsequent iterations. The early frigates (Flight 1?) would basically be "Legend"-class cutters with rear boat deck rebuild into missile container deck. The subsequent (Flight 2?) are supposed to get some kind of anti-submarine setup - probably in terms of torpedo tubes and hull sonar, since the rear deck would already be used by missile containers and hardly allow much space to VDS (I might be wrong, though). The Flight 3 might get VLS or something like that.
Depending on the interval and cost growth of these steps, I don't think it's a terrible idea tbh. Maybe this will actually work out for once, would be a welcome change for the Navy.
 
Depending on the interval and cost growth of these steps, I don't think it's a terrible idea tbh. Maybe this will actually work out for once, would be a welcome change for the Navy.
Well, at least on theoretical level they seems to learned their lesson - that's why they insist on first FF(X) being as close to cutters as possible, with rear deck basically the only major change in the design.
 
Hi,
Considering that at one time (in the late 1980s I think) the old Hamilton Class High Endurance Cutters once carried Harpoon missiles and a CIWS, it appears that at least the first new FF(X) (if armed with missiles in place of the stern ramp) will likely be little more than the rough equivalent of a more modern grey painted Coast Guard cutter for now.

Also, when talking about the range of a Coast Guard cutter, you have to be careful because the very high ranges often stated are at relatively low speed. Looking at the internet it appears that the NSC/WHSL's stated range of 12,000nm may be at a cruise speed of 14kts, whereas the FFG(X) was to have a range of 4,400nm at 20kts.

Regards

Pat
 
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Hi,
Considering that at one time (in the late 1980s I think) the old Hamilton Class High Endurance Cutters once carried Harpoon missiles and a CIWS, it appears that at least the first new FF(X) (if armed with missiles in place of the stern ramp) will likely be little more than the rough equivalent of a more modern grey painted Coast Guard cutter for now.

Also, when talking about the range of a Coast Guard cutter, you have to be careful because the very high ranges often stated are at relatively low speed. Looking at the internet it appears that the NSC/WHSL's stated range of 12,000nm may be at a cruise speed of 14kts, whereas the FFG(X) was to have a range of 4,400nm at 20kts.

Regards

Pat

Good points. Slow, long range patrol is important to the Coast Guard.
 
Reloading VLS cells will be a rate limiting event in any prolonged peer conflict.

I see the US Navy has identified this critical bottleneck and found a simple solution - ditch the VLS cells…
Aren't American VLS launched munitions hot launched?
If so, what exactly is limiting here? And how would that be different from canted launchers?
 
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The replacement for the 40-year old destroyer will also fill the role the Ticonderogas used to occupy. While the ship that's the topic here is intended to eventually grow into a proper Frigate at a later point in it's development after the initial ships are of a more conservative capability.
You’re right - DDG(X) is supposed to replace both Ticonderogas & Burkes, but recent history tells me that the DDG(X) as a single ‘large surface combatant‘ savior will be Zumwalt-sized & priced, meaning a greater-than-we-hope chance of cost-overrun, truncated production, & program failure. Even if the DDG(X) succeeds, its cost will box-out complementary designs and leave too few hulls in the water, so anything the Navy does going forward must add serious value to the fleet. No more mismanaged vanity projects. And no more warships that can’t fight because they lack the gear, the seakeeping, or the presence (because they don’t exist).

With funds for surface warships so tight, this FF(X) feels like money thrown into a hull that won’t be able to help the Navy fight China, be it as a direct combatant or one that ‘frees-up Burkes.’ What non-USCG mission does the FF(X) do that ‘frees-up Burkes?’ Doesn’t help the CVSGs or the ARGs in any way (semi-inexpensive unmanned decoy USVs to soak-up Chinese missiles might be $ better-spent) and unless they quiet the design, FF(X) can’t do ASW to escort ESBs or merchant convoys.

Some might say that this ship can be a FAC. Putting NSMs on a ship as its primary purpose for existence is folly (nothing against NSMs at all, perhaps a great weapon of opportunity). Steaming a 25-kt ship out there to take a 100-nm shot at an adversary warship is just going to call the world in on our ASuW shooter, which will be unable to outrun or shoot down the ballistic missiles, AShCMs, aircraft, drones, and even helicopters sent to sink it. Ship-to-ship shooting feels to be a rare event in a hot war after the first couple days (all manned surface ships will be all-ahead-full to get away from other ships and get under aerial protection). Aircraft (w/speed to run away after shooting), missiles/drones (suicide machinery), & submarines (stealth) are better equipped to sink ships. Streetfighter was a fun idea when there were no serious peer competitors…

Even a plan to deploy these ‘FFs’ as far-blockade ‘privateers’ scooping-up Chinese freighters & tankers in the Indian Ocean with prize crews at-the-ready at the beginning of a hot-war has holes. What does this ship do if a PLAAF patrol plane shows up with air-launched AShCMs that out-range your RAM, with no VLS/ESSM to threaten or destroy enemy aircraft? What if the PLAN deploys a submarine to counter our piracy? Even ‘Indian Ocean privateer’ is a multi-mission frigate’s purview (what Constellation was supposed to be).

Multi-mission ships (CG, DDG, FFG that can protect themselves and other ships from both air and submarine threats) are the only manned surface warships we can send inside the second island chain in a hot war. Single-mission ships can fill gaps where mission gear doesn’t fit on multi-mission ships (like MCM gear), or where the hull needs different architecture (like a minesweeper needing less steel, not more), or where the navy needs a lot of ASW sonars in water only contested by Chinese submarines (and the US Navy can’t afford the cost of hunting subs in SLOCs using solely multi-mission warships).

This FF(X) doesn’t fill any gaps adequately until they can sufficiently quieten a flight II, add a tail, and add a credible 25-nm AAW capability. And even with sacrificing it’s tremendous range, I worry that the NSC hull is just too small to fit the needed gear.

Better to overhaul NAVSEA, lay out the missions & the ships needed to fulfill them, clean-sheet design the ships, build a flight zero for each, kick the tires, adjust the design to fix the problems, and then build flight I for 20 years while redesigning flight II for the next 20. With the Zumwalt & LCS sagas, the sourcing & design effort that eventually became FFG-62, and now the FF(X) decision, we’ve frantically gotten nowhere for 20+ years.

The US Navy fought the first 2 years of WW2 with ships designed & built in the 1930s, and fought the latter 2 years of WW2 by adding ships based on designs ready before Pearl Harbor. Today, minus the 40-year-old Burke & it’s redesigns, the US Navy has no record of surface warship design success in over 3 decades, and no (effective) designs ready to lay down if the hot war starts tonight.

The FF(X) appears to illuminate that the US Navy has no discernible, sensible, or achievable surface warship procurement plan. Maybe we should ask, does the USN even have a naval strategy?
 
No VLS on the FF(X) for now. :confused:
Link:
Well at least as I hoped for there is the plan to operate it as a drone mothership with accompanied assets for munition depth. Will be interesting to see how that plays out with the basic design. I suspect a Flt II will be very quick out after the first few Flt I designs with VLS and other add ons.
 
No VLS on the FF(X) for now. :confused:
Link:
*facepalm* It's really starting to look like a US version of the Tarantul, with all its long-term survivability - and I suppose Large Missile Cutter (Bolshoi Raketeny Katter) is an appropriate designation for an NSC derivative.

If they're going to leave it that devoid of self-defence weaponry they could at least have specified a forward RAM on the 'shelf' (which reminds me of the similar area on the LSD-41s, where one is mounted).

The USN will be in for a fun time when the House and Senate defence committees start asking questions about survivability.
 
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With an all ASuW armament, I'm not certain this can add anything to a CVBG. It looks more like the Contingency and Limited Objectives Warfare (CALOW) Frigate discussed here.
Isn't it also supposed to be pulling a VDS and normal towed array? Plus helo and the usual Mk32 LWT launchers?
 

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