US AWACS recapitalization for the 21st century

I was wondering what would happen to the two E-7s that the RAF never bought bring_it_on.
 
I certainly do hope that the RAF buy's more E-7's bring_it_on, let's hope that the USAF purchase will spur on the RAF to buy at least a further seven to take the total up to ten.
 
The US Air Force could buy the first two aircraft to replace the E-3 Sentry airborne warning and control fleet as early as fiscal 2023, the service announced today.

The service is now seeking information from industry about whether companies can deliver “at least two production representative prototype aircraft, including ground support and training systems, within five years starting in FY23,” when a contract is expected to be awarded, an Air Force solicitation states.

Although the request for information doesn’t constitute a promise from the government to start a program of record, the move shows that the Air Force may be inching closer towards replacing the aging AWACS.
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But a big question remains: Will the Air Force choose to sole source Boeing’s E-7 Wedgetail — an aircraft that has garnered support from top service leaders such as Air Combat Command head Gen. Mark Kelly and Air Force Pacific Command head Gen. Kenneth Wilsbach — or does the new solicitation signal a more open competition for the aircraft?

The RFI provides little information about how the Air Force could structure a new program, if it chooses to pursue one.

Instead, the services calls on companies to submit information on proposed E-3 replacement aircraft, including on key systems such as: its advanced air moving target indication radar, battle management command and control (BMC2) system, self-defense capabilities and key communications systems like Link 16 and Mobile User Objective System.

The aircraft should be able to conduct at least six missions simultaneously, such as offensive counter air, defensive counter air, air traffic control, close air support, suppression of enemy air defenses, aerial refueling or combat search and rescue. The solicitation also asks whether the proposed offer is capable of conducting maritime surveillance.
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breakingdefense.com

Air Force officially looking for vendors to potentially replace E-3 AWACs - Breaking Defense

In a new solicitation, the Air Force states it could put a company under contract in fiscal 2023 to make the first two prototype E-3 replacement airplanes.
breakingdefense.com breakingdefense.com
 
Me thinks they should just reduce risk, cost, and time and just get the E-7 that's already in use by Australia and Turkey.
thats what they should have done with the Tanker competition as well, using Japans 767, but nope they went out on a long drawn process and ended up with a similar aircraft in the end based on the same airframe.
 
FighterJock said:
I certainly do hope that the RAF buy's more E-7's bring_it_on, let's hope that the USAF purchase will spur on the RAF to buy at least a further seven to take the total up to ten.
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Have to wonder if the thinking behind the truncated E-7 purchase was the possibility of piggybacking on a larger USAF purchase in the near future.
 
helmutkohl said:
Me thinks they should just reduce risk, cost, and time and just get the E-7 that's already in use
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I think the "looking for vendors" is entirely procedural and shouldn't be read into too seriously. Buying the first two aircraft in FY23 is pretty fast for a bureaucracy and strongly implies an off-the-shelf purchase. The E-7 is the only contender in such a timeframe. They can always Tinker with it later on.
 
There may be a truncated competition, but it would only be for entirely Off-The-Shelf options and SAAB isn't going to beat Boeing.
 
two production representative prototype aircraft, including ground support and training systems, within five years starting in FY23
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Doesn't sound like it necessarily has to be off-the-shelf, technically they have until 2028 to deliver the prototypes, which suggests production wouldn't be until the early 2030s.

The aircraft should be able to conduct at least six missions simultaneously, such as offensive counter air, defensive counter air, air traffic control, close air support, suppression of enemy air defenses, aerial refueling or combat search and rescue. The solicitation also asks whether the proposed offer is capable of conducting maritime surveillance.
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I wonder if they are thinking more about a UAV platform - a bigger MQ-25 anyone?
 
Hood said:
Doesn't sound like it necessarily has to be off-the-shelf, technically they have until 2028 to deliver the prototypes, which suggests production wouldn't be until the early 2030s.
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It's an RFI so by its nature is not very specific. That said the reference to five years is probably to stay within the statutory limitations of the contracting vehicle they will employ which is going to be an Other Transaction authority or rapid prototyping which must, by law, deliver operational prototypes (that's just a term used in the OTA's for the deliverables) inside five years (or else you can't use it for these programs). This is the same vehicle being used on the ARRW, HACM, and almost all of the US Army's modernization programs that are going to deliver initial hardware over the next 24 months.

That said, the vendors need not take the full five years, nor may that be what the USAF is looking to do. I suspect that Boeing can probably deliver the first two aircraft within 2-3 years from order as their product is in production for the UK and they had originally planned to deliver 5 to the RAF before it got truncated to 3. It all depends on the configuration the USAF adopts and what Boeing and Northrop Grumman has been pitching to the ACC. We know they have been including new mission computers, new radars, and a host of other equipment that is tailored to the USAF's ABMS and DOD's cJADC2 initiatives so it may well be that the configuration they select is going to take 2-3 years to fully flesh out and that this is what the OTA is doing with the first two vehicles.
 
Imagine that Boeing offers a 767 variant. Wouldn't then they be in good shape to win KC-Y (USAF/USAF Vs NAVY (P-8)/USAF) ?
 
The vast majority of KC-46 issues wouldn't translate to such an aircraft, unless some idiot decided to add refueling and airlift requirements to it. But there's no really good reason to do it, low entry cost is going to be critical for the USAF to sell this program to Congress while also buying B-21, NGAD, hypersonic weapons, and ICBMs. Plus, putting a plane in the air on time and on budget is much more important to rebuilding Boeing's rep ahead of KC-Y than what exact model of plane it is.
 
I think the AF will be extremely wary of Boeing trying to pitch them a project to integrate the Wedgetail sensor and mission system suite on a different commercial airliner. Boeing likewise will probably be wary of accepting yet another fixed price contract after the KC-46 debacle. So it will likely be a modified E-7 as is with USAF specific enhancements and brought to the current standards and technology.
 
Then Airbus might have an open road. I haven't read the RFI but if no specific constraints are put in term of deployment, the old dream of Airbus to sell an A330 based AWAC might have a chance (obviously, they might have to prove the reality behind their concept).
 
Arguably they have that planned, having pushed the concept by long now. But as you said, who really knows?
 
The best and safest bet would go on Israeli system. so A-330/EL2090 combo. and maybe add X-band radar in the bottom so it can be a real proper Sea surveillance platform as requested in RFI.
 
It seems pretty clear that USAF wants to just go with the Wedgetail for the sake of saving time and money. They view this as an interim buy until a more survivable solution can be developed. They are going to put minimal effort into it; it’s just a question of integrating the USAF specific systems and coms into the existing aircraft and radar.
 
stealthflanker said:
The best and safest bet would go on Israeli system. so A-330/EL2090 combo. and maybe add X-band radar in the bottom so it can be a real proper Sea surveillance platform as requested in RFI.
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Is a fully integrated system like that flying? I don't think so. So its paper capability that is still leveraging something that is quite old, and at one time required US intervention from being sold to the Chinese (??) if I'm not mistaken. Not to mention the economics will be significantly worst and the fact that they'd have to develop OMS compliant computers, radars and US cyber standards from the start. On the E-7 they have all this already and the USAF has been witnessing public demonstration of capability for a while now. Its a mature product that is already operational with the closest allies, has participated in plenty of bi-lateral and multi-lateral exercises and has even deployed with the coalition in a combat theater. It uses a cost-effective platform that can refuel (a program requirement) and is already fully integrated into NATO standards.

Short of Lockheed/Northrop offering to mount the E-2D sensor on a business jet or a narrowbody, I don't think anything else offers any significant competition and I suspect this OTA will be relatively quick to be awarded to Boeing/NG in FY-23.

news.northropgrumman.com

Northrop Grumman Flight Tests Digital Wideband AESA Sensor

BALTIMORE – June 22, 2021 – Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE: NOC) has successfully flight demonstrated its new Terracotta sensor – a fully-digital open mission systems (OMS)-compliant wideband active electronically scanned array (AESA). The flight...
news.northropgrumman.com news.northropgrumman.com
 
Flyaway said:
TomcatViP said:
NATO, also, is taking the same path:

www.airforcemag.com

Boeing-Led Team to Explore E-3 AWACS Replacement Options for NATO | Air & Space Forces Magazine

Boeing will study how to replace NATO’s E-3 AWACS system as US Air Force leaders state preference for E-7 Wedgetail flown by allies.
www.airforcemag.com www.airforcemag.com
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Logical as Mr Spock would say.
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The only real choice that NATO have in terms of replacing the E-3 Sentry. And it looks like the E-7 Wedgetail is going to be far superior to the Sentry in terms of overall radar performance.
 
The Navy has been funding on a small scale the North Star High-Gain UESA, UHF Electronically Scanned Antenna, radar for a decade or so with its unique dual-band antenna, UHF/S-band with dual polarization, AESA, to give 360 degree coverage for possible next gen E-2D/E-3

The UHF gives ability to monitor stealthy aircraft/missiles against dense background clutter and then cue the S-band dual polarization to provide precise targeting at long range.

UESA Revival Offers Dual-Band Radar For Future Early Warning Aircraft | Aviation Week Network

New testing shows that a 20-year-old concept can double the radiated power of future airborne early warning radars.
aviationweek.com aviationweek.com
 

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rooster said:
This kind of fits here in that there isn't a thread for the doomsday planes.... Its back to the future with turboprops....

www.thedrive.com

This Is Our First Look At The Navy’s Next 'Doomsday Plane,' The EC-130J TACAMO

The next-generation EC-130J TACAMO will replace the current fleet of E-6B Mercury jets in a throwback to the Cold War era.
www.thedrive.com www.thedrive.com
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I would have preferred the E-7 Mercury to be replaced by either a jet based on the 777 or the more modern 787 instead of going back to a turboprop aircraft in the shape of the EC-130J TACAMO, the 777/787 aircraft would be better suited to the mission than the C-130J.
 
FighterJock said:
rooster said:
This kind of fits here in that there isn't a thread for the doomsday planes.... Its back to the future with turboprops....

www.thedrive.com

This Is Our First Look At The Navy’s Next 'Doomsday Plane,' The EC-130J TACAMO

The next-generation EC-130J TACAMO will replace the current fleet of E-6B Mercury jets in a throwback to the Cold War era.
www.thedrive.com www.thedrive.com
Click to expand...

I would have preferred the E-7 Mercury to be replaced by either a jet based on the 777 or the more modern 787 instead of going back to a turboprop aircraft in the shape of the EC-130J TACAMO, the 777/787 aircraft would be better suited to the mission than the C-130J.
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I don't know. If you're taking the Airborne Command Post role off the plane (which they appear to be doing), I think the C-130 is probably a suitable platform. If you have to fly tight radius circles for hours on end (to get the VLF antenna hanging near vertical), a slower aircraft is probably better.

Judging from the various program shenanigans, here's what I suspect is happening. The E-6Bs will be running out of hours relatively soon (by the end of the decade, maybe?). To extend their lives, the Navy has already bought a dedicated trainer (an ex-RAF Sentry). Pulling the airframe-stressing TACAMO mission off the Mercury as well might further extend their lives. By then the Air Force can hopefully sort out its own E-4B and Looking Glass replacement (SAOC) to take over all the ABNCP tasks and let the Navy focus on just the TACAMO comms relay mission to support the SSBNs.
 
Plus, the C-130 can operate from nearly everywhere when a Jet would be easier to target on the ground (less basing possibilities, more infrastructure needed etc...)
 
Josh_TN said:
rooster said:
This kind of fits here in that there isn't a thread for the doomsday planes.... Its back to the future with turboprops....

www.thedrive.com

This Is Our First Look At The Navy’s Next 'Doomsday Plane,' The EC-130J TACAMO

The next-generation EC-130J TACAMO will replace the current fleet of E-6B Mercury jets in a throwback to the Cold War era.
www.thedrive.com www.thedrive.com
Click to expand...
Interesting...if these are only to serve in the TACOMO mission, what is going to fulfill LOOKING GLASS?
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I suspect the goal is to let the E-6Bs do just Looking Glass for as long as possible while the Air Force replaces the E-4B NEACAP with SAOC and then decides how to handle ABNCP longer term.
 
^finally!

I guess this means the Navy is the only operator left in the US still using the dish!

so will the USAF E-7s be significantly different than the Australian/Turkish/Korean ones?
 
Official announcement from the USAF.

www.af.mil

Air Force identifies Boeing E-7 as solution to replace the E-3 capability

Based on market research, the Department of the Air Force has decided to replace a portion of the E-3 Sentry Airborne Warning and Control System fleet with the E-7 Wedgetail, which is produced by The
www.af.mil

helmutkohl said:
so will the USAF E-7s be significantly different than the Australian/Turkish/Korean ones?
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USAF will have Open Mission Systems on their E-7s, as well as some other capabilities. That may explain the rather substantial time given to "prototyping". It may even be designated as a new variant.
 
Funding for the first prototype is included in the FY-23. The 23 NDAA is likely months away and could go into early 2023. Much like the F-15EX prototypes, I'm sure Boeing and NG could (and possibly would) front the suppliers to begin work on this and deliver months ahead of original delivery dates. They are also going through the UK order so that could explain the AF giving them more time.
 

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