Updating Seaslug

FWIW I'm coming to the conclusion that if the Country had the Type 984 3D search radar it would only the replace the Types 965 and 278. The Type 992 target indication radar would still be needed, and such a County would be in the unusual position of having a 3D search radar but a 2D TI radar.
 
uk75 #63: Seaslug: a dead end system
The wonder is...not that Seaslug did not have post-GWS-2 enhancements and/or more hulls, but that it went to sea.
Task identified 1944, County DLG Devonshire commissioned 15/11/62. Incompetent.

RN Future Fleet brain was long devoted from 1944 to anti-kamikaze (SAM) and anti-Gnat (smart) torpedo defence. Brain, 1946-64 centred in RN Scientific Service (RNSS) and in a plethora of its shore Research Establishments.

Hood, here, has recently posted in the sense that (smart) torpedoes are THE Project Management challenge; has noted RN Bath Architects' hostility to attempts by SAMsters to meddle with their designs; and #62: 1960 thoughts on NIGS. Dilandu #14 exquisite artwork, sculpted civil engineering of Seaslug launcher (recognisable to Brunel).

RN/RAF from 1943 operated W.Electric/GE Mk.24 Mine/FIDO passive but smart torpedo, claiming some of
50xU-boats it sank/damaged. P.Hennessy',Silent Deep,Pp.305/6 traces RN Controlled torps: " horror, dismal record";​
Mk.23Grog, ITP '55, Fleet Weapon Acceptance '71: “rotten...useless”.

Project Mngt. incompetence in smart underwater and Air weapons has led to RNSS/Establishments' extinction. UK now does such work in industry - MBDA + BAES. CVF overall Integration was contracted to US Consultancy/ Venture Finance House, KBR. Q: How did the Navy of Nelson so decline?

Candidate As include low RN volume, so rationed funds, spending time as cheaper than money.
I prefer silo-mngt: no sense of "System"; zero co-ordination to match needs of platform with needs of weapon.
 
Seaslug could have been abandoned in 1956, in favour of Green Flax a.k.a Thunderbird MkII.
In fact the magazine system could handle the change, and the main differences would obviously be the guidance radar and a revised launcher.

But Seaslug suffered from timing, technology and politics.
The key decisions for service entry had to be by January 1948 to give enough time and yet in that very year the bulk of the team resigned over the move from Wescott to Farnborough.
Magazine system choices needed to be made by February 1948 yet the basics of the missile's dimensions had not yet been fixed.
Worse was to come as basic guidance choices had not been made and a mkI was driven forward while AW were told to get on with a beam rider MkII while the RAE worked the ideal final MkIII.

Edited in addition.
Remember that service entry was supposed to be 1956 in order to be ready for the Year of Maximum Danger 1957.
Korea had thrown the whole effort put of kilter and most key decisions were 1954.
But the seperate cruiser magazine system actually was prototyped on Girdle Ness along with the original tripple launcher.
....of which the twin is essentially a cheap cut down version of this.
 
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Girdleness had a triple launcher because the Project 502 team's analysis showed that a three round salvo would be required to meet the 85% hit probability required by the specification. In practice the Mk1 missile achieved a 75% hit rate for a single missile; therefore a twin launcher would suffice.

Incidentally, I have done a fair bit of analysis of the Seaslug Mk2 firing reports I have had access to and there is (oddly) no correlation between target range or speed and success rate, but a very definite one between target altitude and success.

SRJ.
 
Incidentally, I have done a fair bit of analysis of the Seaslug Mk2 firing reports I have had access to and there is (oddly) no correlation between target range or speed and success rate, but a very definite one between target altitude and success.
Hm. The higher target, the better sucsess rate? Maybe linked with the beam reflection from surface?
 
uk75 #63: Seaslug: a dead end system
The wonder is...not that Seaslug did not have post-GWS-2 enhancements and/or more hulls, but that it went to sea.
Task identified 1944, County DLG Devonshire commissioned 15/11/62. Incompetent.

IIRC, the missile team tasked with developing what became Seaslug had an enforced post-war move from London far into the countryside. This resulted in a lot of the team resigning, and so the whole group had to be reformed - from people who didn’t mind bracing countryside air.
 
Hm. The higher target, the better sucsess rate? Maybe linked with the beam reflection from surface?
The issue of surface reflection was dealt with by deflecting the gathering beam upwards for low altitude targets. The problem was that to engage targets below half a degree elevation required a terminal dive (CASWTD -pronounced ‘custard’).
Targets above 1000ft -65% SSKP.
Below 1000ft -25%.

SRJ.
 
Thank you!

Well, the pictures confirm that the only way to fit Sea Dart on County - is to develope the horizontal storage system, that would fit into former Seaslug magazine (and modify Sea Dart launcher for horizontal reload)
Dilandu
Great read
Tanks you answer my question about rearming the Counties, mention this.
So better tham US SAM is mor easy, use the Sea Dart, adapting the Sea Slug horizontal sytem
1754260509239.png
You need the launcher, can load the missiles in this possition
 
You need the launcher, can load the missiles in this possition
Close to horizontal rail position, I think. Technically it wouldn't be too hard to switch loading position 90 degrees. Still would require some serious launcher rework, probably, since the whole system is analogue-controlled.
 
Close to horizontal rail position, I think. Technically it wouldn't be too hard to switch loading position 90 degrees. Still would require some serious launcher rework, probably, since the whole system is analogue-controlled.
You would I think have to develop a completely new launcher as opposed to modifying the sea dart launcher.
I suspect that it would be easier and probably cheaper to do so.
 
You would I think have to develop a completely new launcher as opposed to modifying the sea dart launcher.
I suspect that it would be easier and probably cheaper to do so.
Not sure; probably modifying the existing launcher would be simpler. It's already could place its rails horizontally, so essentially the challenge is to persuade launcher analogue controls to view loading in this position as "normal".
 
Actually, it seems to be possible. I refreshed my memory about this tread - and the container box launcher for Sea Dart was suggested and even tested. So, it seems that horizontal storage is not impossible:

View attachment 747704

If the Sea Dart could be stored horizontally, then it is likely possible to rebuild the old Seaslug magazines on Counties for new missiles. Since Sea Dart did not require assembly & could be stored complete, we could use all length of magazine system to store ready-to-use missiles. Since Sea Dart is about 1/3 smaller than Seaslug, we could put at least as much missiles onboard the County as on the Type 42 (i.e. 30)

Hovewer, using Sea Dart with horizontal storage would require some launcher redesign. It must be modernized to allow horizontal (or at least angled) loading. I doubt it would require too much efforts, though.
They could even have stored them in the containers and adapted the launcher to use and discard the containers.
 
The Sea Slug missile has a 41cm-16" diameter, that should be plenty of room for a SARH dish. By the 60s it shouldn't be that difficult to arrange an upgrade to the electronics with off-the-shelf components. Similarly by the 60s solid rocket fuels had advanced over what was available in the 40s and 50s, so it shouldn't be that difficult to re-fill the existing rocket casings with the most modern propellants to get better performance. This gets a better missile without the hugely complex, expensive and times consuming ship rebuild for a different missile system.
 
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The Sea Slug missile has a 41cm-16" diameter, that should be plenty of room for a SARH dish. By the 60s it shouldn't be that difficult to arrange an upgrade to the electronics with off-the-shelf components. Similarly by the 60s solid rocket fuels had advanced over what was available in the 40s and 50s, so it shouldn't be that difficult to re-fill the existing rocket casings with the most modern propellants to get better performance. This gets a better missile without the hugely complex, expensive and times consuming ship rebuild for a different missile system.
Very good point!

New rockets and electronics should be a standard development path.
 
the hugely complex, expensive and times consuming ship rebuild for a different missile system.
You are still going to need to install a new missile fire control system, which may involve ripping a lot of stuff out to get to a lot of other stuff that needs to be ripped out, installing a lamp set that can do SARH illumination etc.

Can anyone speak to what happened with the US Terrier ships when they went from BT-3 to HT-3 Terrier?
 
You are still going to need to install a new missile fire control system, which may involve ripping a lot of stuff out to get to a lot of other stuff that needs to be ripped out, installing a lamp set that can do SARH illumination etc.

Can anyone speak to what happened with the US Terrier ships when they went from BT-3 to HT-3 Terrier?
Paging @Tzoli and @Dilandu to the thread!
 
Very good point!

New rockets and electronics should be a standard development path.

I have a vague idea that the radar Red Top and Sea Slug mk3 could use versions of the same CW SARH seeker. Iiuc the British were working on a CW seeker with a 12" receiver dish, it could be scaled up to 16" for the SS3 and down to 9" for the RRT.
 
You are still going to need to install a new missile fire control system, which may involve ripping a lot of stuff out to get to a lot of other stuff that needs to be ripped out, installing a lamp set that can do SARH illumination etc.

True, but at least some of that would be done in the course of standard refits anyway. For example by the mid 60s the Type 965 AKE2 was being built with solid state electronics . I'd also expect the SS3 to utilise as much off-the-shelf components as possible, perhaps such updated ships would have the same radar fit as the Type 82 had, or maybe the SS2 guidance radar could be given an update with solid state electronics.

The most important thing is to give these ships a cost effective capability upgrade rather than create the British version of the space battleship yamamoto.
 
Can anyone speak to what happened with the US Terrier ships when they went from BT-3 to HT-3 Terrier?
IRRC most of Terrier-equipped ships, that operated late-generation Terrier missiles (i.e. were equipped with AN/SPG-55 radars), were designed to accomodate BT-3 and HT-3 from the beginning. A few of earlier ships - like Boston-class and Providence-class cruisers - were unable to use HT-3, since their early AN/SPQ-5 fire control radars lacked the CW illumination function that later AN/SPG-55 radars have (Boston-class IRRC were only able to use BW missiles due to their magazines weren't designed to accomodate slightly larger BT missiles).
 
The Sea Slug missile has a 41cm-16" diameter, that should be plenty of room for a SARH dish.
Not exactly. There is little space in missile nose for any kind of radar:

1755052878282.png

See, the nose cone is small, and completely filled with fuze system. You can't fit the 1960s SARH seeker there; electronics would took too much space, even if you relocate the fuze somewhere (and this would likely require increasing missile length, too). At most something like very small seeker from AIM-9C could fit; but would it be worthy of the efforts?
 
Not exactly. There is little space in missile nose for any kind of radar:

View attachment 781314

See, the nose cone is small, and completely filled with fuze system. You can't fit the 1960s SARH seeker there; electronics would took too much space, even if you relocate the fuze somewhere (and this would likely require increasing missile length, too). At most something like very small seeker from AIM-9C could fit; but would it be worthy of the efforts?
Oh, jeez, talk about an ass-backwards missile arrangement!

Time to rearrange the entire missile: Seeker/Fuze, guidance electronics, warhead, rocket.
 
Oh, jeez, talk about an ass-backwards missile arrangement!
If I recall correctly, the Seaslug was intentionally designed to be as short as possible, so in case of battle damage the crew could manually move & load missiles. So it was deemed practical to trade length for width, but not the opposite.
 
What I've said elsewhere is this.
You can run shielded coaxial cables from recievers around the nose, along the fusilage of the missile to the existing avionics bay at the back.
Essentially the polyrod interferometer guidance system of Sea Dart, or Talos.
Now this does require a new avionics package in that bay. But the then state-of-the-art electronics was reducing in size such that this was increasingly possible in the 60's.

Arguably then one might combine 'Talos style' beam riding and SARH on a Seaslug mkIII, that utilises both existing missiles suitible upgraded with that new avionics and modified improved Type 901 guidance system. Allowing for both beam riding and illumination for SARH.

This should theoretically permit a efficient flight trajectory and illumination out to much greater ranges. Plus increase the pk figure further.
Now we might dubiously define this as mkII* or some other iteration in sime desperatebid to pretend it'snot a mkIII. But we can then imagine a mkIV using Command Guidance doing away with the Type 901 for Type 909.
We can easily conceive of a variant or mode for an anti-radar.

We can even envision a complete revision of the missile to gain much greater performance. As long as it fits the magazine system and launcher.
 
This should theoretically permit a efficient flight trajectory and illumination out to much greater ranges. Plus increase the pk figure further.
This would require separate radar for target tracking; the one Type 901 would not be able to simultaneously track the target & guide missile along the efficient trajectory.
 
This would require separate radar for target tracking; the one Type 901 would not be able to simultaneously track the target & guide missile along the efficient trajectory.
I think this is where the Beacon concept could shine. Since that would provide the 'beam' for the missile to fly until.

Strictly that's a rotating system which provides a 'beam' giving a "go that way" every time it's pointing in the 'right' direction and could with coded signal direct multiple missiles in multiple directions. Until they're close enough to need SARH illumination from the updated Type 901.
 
I don’t think it is a realistic proposition to re-arm the Counties with Sea Dart, it’ll cost too much compared with a Type 42 and the only gain would be a (much) bigger magazine. The RN went to ‘all gas turbine’ power for a good reason.

Someone made a comment about only the second batch of counties being updated with the Mk 2 missile; in fact these ships were designed to take the Mk2 missile from the outset.

BSP is the only source I’ve seen of Seaslug Mk3, I’ve found nothing at TNA or in HMS Collingwood’s library. All I know is that the Project 502 team were sticking to beam-riding, all the firing reports I had showed that the missile kept within 35 feet of the datum -the line from the Type901 radar to the target.

SRJ
 
Beggars the question how far can the beam maintain sufficient strength and accuracy?
 
Beggars the question how far can the beam maintain sufficient strength and accuracy
It depend on many parameters (frequency, antenna parameters, ect.), but IRRC the general conclusion was that radar beam-riding became inefficient as solo method of guidance beyond 40-50 km. The spread of the beam overcame the lethal radius of warhead, drastically decreasing the kill probability. Of course, it was only about conventional warheads.
 
I think it all comes down to the volume needed for the electronics and can it be packed into the existing avionics bay on the existing missile.
But the fuze takes up the entire nosecone of the Mk1/Mk2 missiles, there's no space for a SARH seeker there. Polyrod interferometry is critically dependent on the antennas all being exactly the same size, and that would extend to the coax cables carrying the signal back to the electronics being exactly the same length.

You're much better rearranging the internals than trying to get load balancing perfect on the existing missiles.

"Seaslug Mk2M," like the difference between Tu22 and Tu22M.
 
But the fuze takes up the entire nosecone of the Mk1/Mk2 missiles, there's no space for a SARH seeker there. Polyrod interferometry is critically dependent on the antennas all being exactly the same size, and that would extend to the coax cables carrying the signal back to the electronics being exactly the same length.

You're much better rearranging the internals than trying to get load balancing perfect on the existing missiles.

"Seaslug Mk2M," like the difference between Tu22 and Tu22M.
Getting the antenna rods and coaxial the precise lengths is fairly trivial compared with completely redesigning the missile, building it and testing to prove everything.
Essentially mkII missiles can be taken and retrofitted. If the new electronic fit the existing bay.

That bay is designed for early-to-mid 50s era electronics.

Do remember the magazine and launcher was designed to cope with longer missiles. So there's modest scope to balance out weight distribution, even if we're replacing the nose section with a new one.

Perhaps the more intriguing is a curious reference from Friedman. Which is likely NIGS related.
But he states at one point the polyrod interferometer system of 14" spacing was mated with a 7" seeker dish.
It's potentially possible that might be applied to new redesigned missiles. But that's essentially a debatable choice for new missiles.
 
But he states at one point the polyrod interferometer system of 14" spacing was mated with a 7" seeker dish.
Hm. I'm not exactly sure what was planned to be gained from this. Some kind of two-stage homing? Interferometer seeker to search for the general position target & dish seeker to lock on and track it?
 
Hm. I'm not exactly sure what was planned to be gained from this. Some kind of two-stage homing? Interferometer seeker to search for the general position target & dish seeker to lock on and track it?
Could be.
I seem to recall that the limit of polyrod with the 909 was 80nm or so. Possibly something lurking in the details explains that.
But signal strength might be one answer.

However dish seekers cope better with the lower signal strength, so if the weapon was designed to go further......
 
However dish seekers cope better with the lower signal strength, so if the weapon was designed to go further......
In general, the polyrod seekers are better for search (since they could seek target in any direction relative to missile), while dish seekers are better for tracking (since they could precisely hold antenna looking toward target, massively increasing gain and reducing sidelobes interference. So if missile diameter did not left space for a big enough dish antenna - pretty common problem for missiles with axial ramjet! - the polyrod seeker could be used to generally orient missile toward target, so dish seeker could obtain it and lock on it.
 
IIRC 50s electronics dictated the appalling internal layout of the Firestreak AAM, with things like the actuators for the fins not near them and driven by actuation rods and the like. Much of Red Tops improvement was being able to have a logical and vastly more efficient internal layout for the missile, allowing for things ike a bigger warhead and rocket motor while staying within the Firestreak's dimensions more or less.

To what extent was this the case for the Seaslug? If it was the case to what extent was a logical and efficient internal layout rearrangement possible with 60s electronics?
 

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