Unknown german carrier-borne biplane

Wurger

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Scanned from Siegfried Breyer`s"Graf Zeppelin", Encyklopedia Okretow Wojennych, AJ Press nº 42. A 1939 side (partial) drawing of the only german aircraft-carrier, showing some intriguing aircraft profiles. What is this twin seat biplane? I cannot ID it.

I would rule out artists imagination since the same drawing clearly depicts the Ju-87 with rigour.
 

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Wurger

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I thought about the Klemm`s too, but this is different, somewhat earlier and with a trunked rudder. Notice the engine instalation which is pronnouncelly downwards. Could be a BMW VI mounting? I guess we are facing here a trully "unknown" paper plane.
 

lastdingo

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It may have been artistic freedom, meant to only give a sense for the proportions.

I do believe it's the He 60, though.
I recall faintly a wheeled undercarriage version of that aircraft, and it was in service with the coastal aviation in Germany during the late 30's.
 

piko1

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looks more like He49 related cant think of anything else
 

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I agree with lastdingo, looks like the Heinkel He.60!
 

Wurger

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Something like this? It`s the He 45M-04, a standard He 45B sporting an experimental BMW 116 water-cooled 12-cylinder engine.
 

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Jemiba

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My first thought was an Ar 66 or Go 145 modified as carrier based trainer.
A more powerful engine (Jumo 210), that probably would lead to other modifications,
too. The shape of the fin is a little bit strange, but maybe for the Ar 66 an enlarged
fin could have a fillet .
 

Wurger

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The Ar 66 had a straight frontal strut undercarriage, a Argus engine, an advanced seat layout compared to the "mistery" aircraft and the lower wing wasn`t as backwards as the one in the carrier-borne biplane. The Ar 66 had a tipycal Arado fin. The Go 145 doesn`t match either. They also are too nimble.

Digging for more I came up with this: the He 45 was used as a testbed for new engines like the Argus As12, the Daimler-Benz DB600 ( November 1935, V-10 and V-11 prototypes, proposed as the first of the He 45G series), the BMW 115 and 116, as well as the Jumo 211A ( August 1936, V-12 and V-14 experimental aircraft). The DB 600C and Jumo 211A engined aircraft would afterwards be known as the He 245 A and B series, respectivelly. Info taken from Volker Koos.

I now believe the mistery has been solved. It is the He 45 or 245, with a liquid-cooled inverted Vee 12 cylinder engine. But it represents another proposal (unknown) added to the aircraft complement of the "Graf Zeppelin" carrier. This keeps growing.
 

Jemiba

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Well, maybe, maybe not. The fin of the He 45 matches the unknown type better, about the other
points I'm actually not sure. Modified for carrier use and with a more powerful and probably heavier
engine, the landing gear surely wouldn't have escaped fundamental changes. If this type would
have been used along the Ju 87 and taking into account the quite limited aircraft complement of
the "Graf Zeppelin", I still cannot think of it as carrier based recce aircraft, as this role would have
been filled by either the Fi 167 or the Arado 195. Maybe a unsolicited proposal ? But it probably
couldn't be used in the attack/torpedo role. Perhaps a dedicated shipborne trainer ?

(Drawings used from http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/ww2planes/heinkel/36497/view/
and http://www.germanaircraftwwii.com/blog/497592-arado-ar-66/ )
 

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Wurger

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Nice comparison sketches, Jens. About the role I would bet on recce or training.
 

Jemiba

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The same drawings (with the unknown type and the Ju 87) I've found in Ulrich H.-J.Israels
"Einziger deutscher Flugzeugträger Graf Zeppelin". The drawing you posted shows the design
from 1939, the drawing with the Ju 87 that from 1942/43. The biplane layout of the Ar 195
and Fi 167 was regarded as outdated already in 1939, the Luftwaffe He 45 were relegated to
the second line in September 1939, so it's quite unlikely, that it was still regarded as a front-
line aircraft then. To my opinion, the design could have emerged during the same time, the
specification for the torpedo-/recce aircraft was issued. Would be interesting to know, how it
entered the construction plans for the "Graf Zeppelin" !
 

Wurger

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Hi Justo, I guess I`ll stick to the He 45/245. This proven aircraft was somehow considered to embark in the "Graf Zeppelin", as depicted in the 1939 plan. It well may have been used to act as a testbed for other "official" aircraft such as the ones suggested by Jemiba. I appreciate your contributions, making this forum of ours a place where aircraft history is not only debated or shared but even constructed.
 

Wurger

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This Gotha project should be in line with the same specification as those Klemm E 63 and 64. I believe we are facing an otherwise unknown competition for a carrier borne reconnaissance aircraft.
 

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