Ukranian Naval Drones

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Mark Nankivil

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Good Day All -

Interesting story/image posted that implies the Ukranians are using naval drones:


Any ideas on where the design is from? Reminds me of some of the South American drug runner semisubmersibles that have been caught in the Gulf of Mexico and Carribean.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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Best summary of the known info that I've seen is here:


Short form, it's NOT a MANTAS T-12 (that's a catamaran-style hull). It may well be some sort of adaptation of a sea-going kayak, with the stern cut off to mount a waterjet and a top added to enclose a warhead of some sort. Whether it's a US-supplied thing or a Ukrainian improvisation is anyone's guess (My feeling is that theStarlink antenna suggests Ukrainian improv.)

View: https://twitter.com/UKikaski/status/1572617974586183680
 
I wonder if it is a Ukrainian Naval Forces (aka the Ukrainian Navy) weapon or are the National Guard flirting with coastal/brown water warfare?
 
I wonder if it is a Ukrainian Naval Forces (aka the Ukrainian Navy) weapon or are the National Guard flirting with coastal/brown water warfare?
I mean is it even limited to brown water? If you can use starlink to guide it, it might be worth using for anti access, even if it's not super duper perfect and you lose a few like we see here, you still have a deterrent. Not suitable for hunting warships, but for commercial shipping, and maybe in other variants minelaying and isr?
 
One question that arises then is how well would it perform in open water?
 
View: https://vimeo.com/765242177

View: https://twitter.com/UkraineNewsLive/status/1586352897364987905

 
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All the extra watch-standing and alert-raising will do wonders for the Black Sea Fleet crews' sobriety...
 
All the extra watch-standing and alert-raising will do wonders for the Black Sea Fleet crews' sobriety...
Well it sure seems like *somebody* needs to start standing watch. These unmanned powerboats are cool and all, but they really don't seem like the sorts of things that should be able to get anywhere near a modern naval vessel. They appear to be in radio communications with someone; at the very least they are broadcasting video, and doubtless receiving commands, rather than being fully autonomous. So they should be detectable on radar, sonar, visually, EM. Hell, they breathe so loud you could shoot them in the dark.
 
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Moderator Announcement
This thread has been cleaned up and the members who have been affected by post deletions notified. It seems that people can't post topical Ukraine War material without descending into rumour mill and political squabbles. The last time I checked Shahed-136 flew and didn't float so it's not relevant to this discussion - these posts have been moved to here.

This isn't strictly speaking a naval PROJECT topic as it deals with weaponry that is in service. I let it ride as I thought the discussion would stay technical and unmanned craft are increasingly the future of naval warfare and may offer some interest. So I will keep it open in this forum for now, but if things descend into playground "he said, she said" level of squabbles again I will lock it.
 
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View: https://vimeo.com/769890168

View: https://vimeo.com/769887985

Ukraine is building the world's first fleet of naval drones, one such unmanned "ship" costing $270,000. It is equipped with a warhead of up to 200 kg and can hit targets at a distance of up to 400 km


Ukraine is Assembling the World's First Fleet of Naval Drones. Funds Will Be Raised via UNITED24
11.11.2022

The UNITED24 Fundraising Platform has started fundraising for a Fleet of Naval Drones. The main task of these drones will be to protect the waters of Ukrainian seas, as well as peaceful cities, from russian battleships and cruise missiles. The fleet will also help unlock corridors for civilian vessels to transport grain to the rest of the world.

Since February 24, russian armed forces have launched over 4,500 missiles into Ukraine. Every fifth strike came from the sea. They have struck Kyiv, Vinnytsia, Odesa, Kharkiv, Mykolaiv, and Dnipro. Ukraine has been unable to oppose these aggressions, as the Ukrainian fleet lost 80% of its vessels due to the occupation of Crimea in 2014.

But, on October 29, 2022, naval drones attacked russian ships in Sevastopol. This was the first naval attack in history that was carried out exclusively by unmanned devices. They hit 3 russian ships, including the flagship of their Black Sea Fleet: "Admiral Makarov.". Russia has lost its once-undeniable advantage on the water.

After these events, the President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, announced the formation of a special fleet:

“We will raise funds for the fleet of naval drones. I think absolutely everyone understands what this is and what it is needed for, and I am sure that millions of people will support this direction in our defense. Everyone has already seen how it works. And this is only for the protection of our marine water area, we claim nothing that does not belong to us.”

"The russian fleet is constantly terrorizing Ukraine and our cities. 100 multipurpose surface devices will cement the success of the Navy, following the sinking of the Moskva cruiser and recapturing of the Snake Island. They will also give us the opportunity to better protect both the sea and our country's entire territory," said Oleksiy Neizhpapa, Vice Admiral, Commander of the Naval Forces of the Ukrainian Navy. "They can participate in long-range maritime reconnaissance and coastal surveillance, escorting and supporting the traditional fleet, convoying merchant ships, zoning in artillery fire, defending our bases and countering amphibious operations. Such naval drones have already proven their effectiveness, and can change the situation in the Black Sea significantly."

Naval drone is a unique, classified Ukrainian development; the cost of one unit is 10,000,000 UAH. The cost includes the naval drone, equipped with an autopilot system, video subsystems (including night vision), special communication module secured from enemy electronic warfare, backup communication modules and combat functionality, as well as a ground-based, autonomous control station, transportation,storage system, and data processing center.

The fundraiser is expected to be global, with the funds for the first 10 drones to be raised in one day.


“Donors from 110 countries help Ukraine via UNITED24,” said Mykhailo Fedorov, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Digital Transformation of Ukraine. "We see how in half a year of the platform's activity, the number of those who support the fundraising towards Defence and Demining is constantly increasing . People from all over the world understand that for the victory of Ukraine, it is necessary to strengthen our army. Naval drones can significantly change the situation in the Black Sea waters. Small and fast, they are capable of successfully attacking russian ships worth hundreds of millions of dollars, fulfilling their key objective - to force these ships to stay at the bay because of the fear of being hit. In this war of technologies, Ukraine once again demonstrates ingenuity."
Naval Drones.jpg
 
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Declared characteristics:
Length- 5.5m
Full weight- 1000kg
Operational radius- 400km
Range- 800km
Autonomy- 60h
Combat load- 200kg
Maximum speed- 80 km/h.
Navigation- automatic GNSS, inertial, visual Transmission of video- three HD video streams Crypto encryption- 256 bits
View: https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1591046414699724801

View: https://twitter.com/loogunda/status/1591072220377657345
 
All the extra watch-standing and alert-raising will do wonders for the Black Sea Fleet crews' sobriety...
Well it sure seems like *somebody* needs to start standing watch. These unmanned powerboats are cool and all, but they really don't seem like the sorts of things that should be able to get anywhere near a modern naval vessel. They appear to be in radio communications with someone; at the very least they are broadcasting video, and doubtless receiving commands, rather than being fully autonomous. So they should be detectable on radar, sonar, visually, EM. Hell, they breathe so loud you could shoot them in the dark.
Satcomm maybe? Something that doesn't use an omnidirectional antenna anyway. Elon to the rescue maybe?
 
It's not even really a fireship. Those were more like the demolition destroyer in Operation Chariot. The Ukrainian robots are just unmanned forms of kamikaze motorboats like the Japanese emergency anti-landing craft boats, which is the proper analogy. For a more modern example, the suicide attacks on USS Cole can be considered, as well as the Italian commandos, who pioneered the concept in combat use.


This is just what happens when you are defeated in the naval realm, and cannot meaningfully contest sea control by the enemy, but still have a coastline under your control. Russia can't control Odessa so the Ukrainians send stuff like this. Honestly, sending MiGs or Su-24s armed with laser guided missiles or EO rockets like Kh-25, which Ukraine has plenty of, would be actually lethal to warships in general, but they don't have enough of an air force to do that either. The comparisons in the aero-naval sphere to Japanese Empire are pretty stark, if only because both nations were under then-impenetrable naval blockade, at least.

So far no naval blockade has ever been broken by tiny explosive laden motorboats or kayaks but plenty of naval port strikes and minor annoyances have been done. If Ukraine had a few more batteries or battalions of functional Neptunes it might help, but they don't seem to be able to pull off the Moskva strike again, as perhaps the Krivak Vs have better ECM or better littoral air defense than the 1960s cruiser, or maybe they don't have enough anti-ship missiles, or Russia is keeping its Krivaks further away. It's not really clear what's going on besides Ukraine isn't going to be able to break the blockade any time soon, at least not without invading Crimea, if that.

I'd say this is where a diesel sub is useful but Russia has oodles of them in the Black Sea Fleet so it wouldn't change the calculus much. Ukraine would need a functional air force that's able to take losses, which it doesn't have, and maritime patrol aircraft for anti-ship/anti-submarine strikes, which it also doesn't have.

Thus, the little robot kamikazes are the only materially effective option left, even if it seems to be rather minuscule.

It's hardly a new naval tactic, but it's one done by a naval force that is greatly inferior to its enemy, and can be surprising at times. Perhaps they might pull off one, maybe two, more similar attack before the harbor defenses adapt. I suspect Russia would start flying Helixes or Hormones with surface search radars, not unlike how the USCG flies radar aircraft to detect narcosubs, near the harbor mouth tbh. A lightweight anti-tank missile like an Ataka would be the ideal weapon to use, which Helix and Hormone can carry, and is directed by television or FLIR sight.
 
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Other than link above, That recent attack on frigate and mine-sweeper seem to have sunk 'under the radar' of mainstream news.

Have we confirmation that damage was more than superficial ??

Beyond that they've not been 'sortied' to Rus cries of, "Nyah ! Nyah ! Barely scuffed the paint !!"
 
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As per some twitter sources 2 Ukrainian surface drones managed to escape fire. Here is another video released few hours back, which seems to show the drone strike from the opposite side of the ship. Gash quality video sadly.

Also been wondering it you can put AShMs on naval drones?

 
It's not even really a fireship. Those were more like the demolition destroyer in Operation Chariot. The Ukrainian robots are just unmanned forms of kamikaze motorboats like the Japanese emergency anti-landing craft boats, which is the proper analogy. For a more modern example, the suicide attacks on USS Cole can be considered, as well as the Italian commandos, who pioneered the concept in combat use.


This is just what happens when you are defeated in the naval realm, and cannot meaningfully contest sea control by the enemy, but still have a coastline under your control. Russia can't control Odessa so the Ukrainians send stuff like this. Honestly, sending MiGs or Su-24s armed with laser guided missiles or EO rockets like Kh-25, which Ukraine has plenty of, would be actually lethal to warships in general, but they don't have enough of an air force to do that either. The comparisons in the aero-naval sphere to Japanese Empire are pretty stark, if only because both nations were under then-impenetrable naval blockade, at least.

So far no naval blockade has ever been broken by tiny explosive laden motorboats or kayaks but plenty of naval port strikes and minor annoyances have been done. If Ukraine had a few more batteries or battalions of functional Neptunes it might help, but they don't seem to be able to pull off the Moskva strike again, as perhaps the Krivak Vs have better ECM or better littoral air defense than the 1960s cruiser, or maybe they don't have enough anti-ship missiles, or Russia is keeping its Krivaks further away. It's not really clear what's going on besides Ukraine isn't going to be able to break the blockade any time soon, at least not without invading Crimea, if that.

I'd say this is where a diesel sub is useful but Russia has oodles of them in the Black Sea Fleet so it wouldn't change the calculus much. Ukraine would need a functional air force that's able to take losses, which it doesn't have, and maritime patrol aircraft for anti-ship/anti-submarine strikes, which it also doesn't have.

Thus, the little robot kamikazes are the only materially effective option left, even if it seems to be rather minuscule.

It's hardly a new naval tactic, but it's one done by a naval force that is greatly inferior to its enemy, and can be surprising at times. Perhaps they might pull off one, maybe two, more similar attack before the harbor defenses adapt. I suspect Russia would start flying Helixes or Hormones with surface search radars, not unlike how the USCG flies radar aircraft to detect narcosubs, near the harbor mouth tbh. A lightweight anti-tank missile like an Ataka would be the ideal weapon to use, which Helix and Hormone can carry, and is directed by television or FLIR sight.
The difference being that Japan didn't have a huge land border that wasn't interdicted. And the neighbors on that land border are shoveling as much stuff as they can into Ukrainian hands.
 
Japan had a pretty large land border in its national borders in what is now China, and was conducting successful ground-gaining offensives right up to August 1945, obviously. It had a huge land border that only wasn't being interdicted, but was actively expanding.

Ukraine could easily be choked by sea, has no ability to stop this militarily, and its inability to counter Russian seapower by weapons is self-evident by its need to use tiny robotic fireships instead of major combat units like aviation, submarines, or frigates. Russia isn't imposing a blockade at the moment, but it could, and sustain it indefinitely if it so desired unless some outsider got involved.

It's an axiom of naval warfare. Strong navies have battleships, weak navies have fireships.

Ukraine's use of robotic fireships suggests its naval situation will either remain stagnant or deteriorate with time. Since their most important shipyard was captured by Russia, they probably aren't going to be able to build FACs or anything. Kherson can only build commercial tankers and coaster cargo ships, Okean builds bulkers, and Mykolaiv's last major fleet warship built was sunk by Mykolaiv's anti-ship missile battery.

Mariupol was the only Ukrainian shipyard, besides Sevastopol, that could build major combat units still, and those were limited to FAC, coast guard patrol ships, and large landing craft. Sevastopol is the only Ukrainian shipyard, since Mykolaiv killed its military production abilities in the '90's to build bulkers, able to construct actual warships larger than a few thousand tons.

For now the Ukrainian Navy will be reliant on gifts from their national patrons at best and most likely simply relegated to a tertiary importance. Which is why they're using these silly drones instead of useful things.
 
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Japan had a pretty large land border in its national borders in what is now China, and was conducting successful ground-gaining offensives right up to August 1945, obviously. It had a huge land border that only wasn't being interdicted, but was actively expanding.

Ukraine could easily be choked by sea, has no ability to stop this militarily, and its inability to counter Russian seapower by weapons is self-evident by its need to use tiny robotic fireships instead of major combat units like aviation, submarines, or frigates. Russia isn't imposing a blockade at the moment, but it could, and sustain it indefinitely if it so desired unless some outsider got involved.

It's an axiom of naval warfare. Strong navies have battleships, weak navies have fireships.

Ukraine's use of robotic fireships suggests its naval situation will either remain stagnant or deteriorate with time. Since their most important shipyard was captured by Russia, they probably aren't going to be able to build FACs or anything. Kherson can only build commercial tankers and coaster cargo ships, Okean builds bulkers, and Mykolaiv's last major fleet warship built was sunk by Mykolaiv's anti-ship missile battery.

Mariupol was the only Ukrainian shipyard, besides Sevastopol, that could build major combat units still, and those were limited to FAC, coast guard patrol ships, and large landing craft. Sevastopol is the only Ukrainian shipyard, since Mykolaiv killed its military production abilities in the '90's to build bulkers, able to construct actual warships larger than a few thousand tons.

For now the Ukrainian Navy will be reliant on gifts from their national patrons at best and most likely simply relegated to a tertiary importance. Which is why they're using these silly drones instead of useful things.

And what resources were flowing from the conquered parts of China/Mongolia/Siberia to the factories in Japan, and then on to the front lines in the islands?
 
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