UK to change law to stop RAF pilots training Chinese military, says minister

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Flyaway

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I was pretty amazed when I first read this story that this was occurring.

Ministers want to change the law to prevent former RAF pilots from training the Chinese military, amid reports at least 30 British personnel are believed to have taken advantage of “very generous” recruitment packages offered by the superpower.
It emerged overnight that British defence intelligence is to issue a rare “threat alert”, warning that China’s military is trying to recruit serving and former RAF jet pilots to help train its own air force.
Officials expressed “concern and disapproval” of schemes because they posed “a threat to UK and western interests”. Although they are not explicitly banning pilots from providing training, they aim to take steps to “manage the risk”.
In the latest development, the armed forces minister, James Heappey, has said the government wants to change the law to introduce a two-strike rule which would result in British pilots being given one warning before they were prosecuted.
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Tobias Ellwood, Tory MP and former solider, said on Twitter there were “serious questions for the RAF”, adding: “We should not be surprised by China’s audacity in luring UK pilots to learn about our tactics. But we should be surprised there’s nothing akin to the Official Secrets Act preventing this – and the absence of patriotism of those involved.”
In a statement, the MoD said it was attempting to stop the recruitment of former and serving pilots.
A spokesman said: “We are taking decisive steps to stop Chinese recruitment schemes attempting to headhunt serving and former UK armed forces pilots to train People’s Liberation Army personnel in the People’s Republic of China.
“All serving and former personnel are already subject to the Official Secrets Act, and we are reviewing the use of confidentiality contracts and non-disclosure agreements across defence, while the new national security bill will create additional tools to tackle contemporary security challenges – including this one.”
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UK to change law to stop RAF pilots training Chinese military, says minister | Royal Air Force | The Guardian

Chinese recruitment ‘to understand the capabilities of our air force’ of concern, says James Heappey
amp.theguardian.com amp.theguardian.com
 
One can hope that the pilots that actually took up this offer did so with the proper attitude: give the Chinese the standard sub-standard training that will lead them to quickly getting de-rezzed on the game grid.

At the very least,t eh former RAF pilots should have been drunk off their gourds.
 
Orionblamblam said:
One can hope that the pilots that actually took up this offer did so with the proper attitude: give the Chinese the standard sub-standard training that will lead them to quickly getting de-rezzed on the game grid.

At the very least,t eh former RAF pilots should have been drunk off their gourds.
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Unfortunately I don’t think the PRChinese will be that stupid or the pilots that discretionary.
Modern day Sempill Mission.
 
Bruno Anthony said:
Unfortunately I don’t think the PRChinese will be that stupid ...
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Well, they *are* Commies, so smarts will be in somewhat short supply.

But then any Westerner who willingly teaches the ChiComs militarily useful tactics, strategies or technologies ain't that bright either.
 
Orionblamblam said:
Well, they *are* Commies, so smarts will be in somewhat short supply.
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That kind of doctrinalized thinking is what get West in such a mess. Dismissing the mere idea that communists would learn on their mistakes and adapt to new reality - just because USSR refused to do so, you automatically assumed that China would follow Soviet example. Well, they didn't.
 
Having been approached with an offer of work in China a couple of years back myself and politely declined, had I been a decade or so younger and without ties I'd have jumped at the opportunity to sign up for a couple of years (likewise a similar offer to work in India)
I have colleagues who have taken up such offers who have continued in their professions and seem much happier too. I certainly would not denigrate others taking up such opportunities either, in current society, loyalty and ties to ones country are certainly not what they may once had been.
Given the UK.s current status, both politically and economically I can fully understand anyone taking up employment overseas especially if offered a substantial salary package. :)
 
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Yay.

Ex-US military paid by Saudis, other foreigners for shadowy work: report ​


Hundreds of retired US military officials have taken on lucrative work with foreign governments known for human rights abuses and free speech suppression since 2015 — with the blessing of the Pentagon, which has long fought to keep the eyebrow-raising practice under wraps.

Scores of respected generals and admirals — including former national security advisers Marine Gen. James Jones and Army Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn — were among those cashing six and seven-figure checks for the work, according to a bombshell report from the Washington Post, which published the findings Tuesday after suing all branches of the military and the State Department for a trove of personnel documents in a prolonged court fight.
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It's ok. The Gubmint said it's ok.
 
Orionblamblam said:
It's ok. The Gubmint said it's ok.
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I'll do you one better, and this is just a small %.

The Los Alamos Club: Cowardice Has Consequences
Between 1987 and 2021, at least 162 scientists who had worked at Los Alamos returned to the PRC to support a variety of domestic research and development (R&D) programs. Fifteen of those scientists worked as permanent staff members at Los Alamos. Of those fifteen, thirteen were recruited into PRC government talent programs; some were responsible for sponsoring visiting scholars and postdoctoral researchers from the PRC, and some received U.S. government funding for sensitive research. At least one of these staff members held a U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) “Q Clearance” allowing access to Top Secret Restricted Data and National Security Information.

Of the 162 returnees, at least 59 scientists were selectees of the PRC’s flagship talent recruitment program—the Thousand Talents Program (TTP) and its youth branch, the Youth Thousand Talents Program (YTTP) [emphasis added].
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www.nas.org

The Los Alamos Club: Cowardice Has Consequences by David Acevedo | NAS

www.nas.org www.nas.org
 
In_A_Dream said:
Orionblamblam said:
It's ok. The Gubmint said it's ok.
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I'll do you one better, and this is just a small %.

The Los Alamos Club: Cowardice Has Consequences
Between 1987 and 2021, at least 162 scientists who had worked at Los Alamos returned to the PRC to support a variety of domestic research and development (R&D) programs. Fifteen of those scientists worked as permanent staff members at Los Alamos. Of those fifteen, thirteen were recruited into PRC government talent programs; some were responsible for sponsoring visiting scholars and postdoctoral researchers from the PRC, and some received U.S. government funding for sensitive research. At least one of these staff members held a U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) “Q Clearance” allowing access to Top Secret Restricted Data and National Security Information.

Of the 162 returnees, at least 59 scientists were selectees of the PRC’s flagship talent recruitment program—the Thousand Talents Program (TTP) and its youth branch, the Youth Thousand Talents Program (YTTP) [emphasis added].
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www.nas.org

The Los Alamos Club: Cowardice Has Consequences by David Acevedo | NAS

www.nas.org www.nas.org
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The history and biases of that publication may be of some interest to those looking to evaluate the credibility of its content.
I’d suggest a quick Google.
 
kaiserd said:
The history and biases of that publication may be of some interest to those looking to evaluate the credibility of its content.
I’d suggest a quick Google.
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What history and bias are you referring to?

NAS or Strider? Strider is critical of China's infiltration in the US's defense industry, I don't see why that's a concern considering the extensive nature of China's espionage campaign in the West. For example, the PRC acquired the design for the W-88 in the 1980s due to their contacts at the US National Labs. I'm sure their estimate is on the low end of the spectrum for how many de-facto Chinese tech transfer agents they have working in the West.
 
My apologies and at the risk of raising the ire of the moderators, lets not forget extensive western espionage and consistient reporting bias against PRC. in every Western media/information outlet (as well as any other state we feel like adding to the list of bad guys this week) which means that pretty much everything reported is from skewed viewpoint.
Let's face it we (US./UK./NATO.) are not exactly innocents either but we tend to accept/ignore/pass similar from 'our side'
Are such threads really in the vein of 'Secret Projects' ?
 
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Dilandu said:
That kind of doctrinalized thinking is what get West the world in such a mess.
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Fixed that for you :)

Unfortunately nobody is truly exempt from it - pluralistic societies at least have the advantage that, in theory, this kind of thing should not go unchallenged and uncorrected for long. In fact it all too often does however, because of a tendency to blithely assume that such thinking somehow magically doesn't happen in the West in the first place. That's not how it works though - it's human nature, not peculiar to any particular ideology. The truism that democracy, freedom and civil rights should never be taken for granted and need to be nurtured and defended applies. You have to put in the work of doing your critical thinking and research, you do not have a privilege of being right simply by dint of being born into a free society.

Same with corruption, and that's where we return to the subject at hand. It's human nature, Swiss, Germans and Brits aren't somehow inherently predisposed to be less corrupt than Russians, Brazilians or Nigerians. They just operate (and have been socialized all their life) in an environment deliberately set up to discourage corruption much more effectively than, say, Russian society is. In that regard, we should not be surprised that cases like this happen, but rather be grateful that they get exposed and remedied, which is hopefully what we're witnessing at the moment.
 
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Trident said:
Fixed that for you :)

Unfortunately nobody is truly exempt from it - pluralistic societies at least have the advantage that, in theory, this kind of thing should not go unchallenged and uncorrected for long. In fact it all too often does however, because of a tendency to blithely assume that such thinking somehow magically doesn't happen in the West in the first place. That's not how it works though - it's human nature, not peculiar to any particular ideology. The truism that democracy, freedom and civil rights should never be taken for granted and need to be nurtured and defended applies. You have to put in the work of doing your critical thinking and research, you do not have a privilege of being right simply by dint of being born into a free society.

Same with corruption, and that's where we return to the subject at hand. It's human nature, Swiss, Germans and Brits aren't somehow inherently predisposed to be less corrupt than Russians, Brazilians or Nigerians. They just operate (and have been socialized all their life) in an environment deliberately set up to discourage corruption much more effectively than, say, Russian society is. In that regard, we should not be surprised that cases like this happen, but rather be grateful that they get exposed and remedied, which is hopefully what we're witnessing at the moment.
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A flaw in the human condition that makes us susceptible, time and time again. No amount of social development has helped correct it.
 
In_A_Dream said:
A flaw in the human condition that makes us susceptible, time and time again. No amount of social development has helped correct it.
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Perhaps not, but there are developments in society that have helped *control* it. Experience has shown that some systems develop corruption as an emergent property: they might not want corruption, they might actively fight against it, but the basic nature of the system fosters it. Government control over basic human desires and needs is a dandy way to develop a black market: prohibit booze or drugs, you'll get organized crime. Lock down price controls and availability of products people want, anything from smokes to potatoes, you'll get a black market. And while the black marketeer might only be interested in, say, providing potatoes to a starving populace, the fact that they are now willing and able to skirt the law and defy the cops means that you have eroded their *respect* for the rule of law. And not just the tater-pushers, but the buyers. And now that they sneer at the cops over taters, they'll sneer at them over cabbages and vodka and AK-47's and tactical nuclear devices. This will creep past the street pushers and buyers, and infiltrate the cops and the politicians. Eventually *everyone* will come to accept corruption as just the natural order. The more powerful the system of control the more powerful the systems of corruption.

Some systems create and sustain corruption at a much higher level than others. You don't see street battles over Coca Cola because there is no value in corruption over it.
 
Bruno Anthony said:
Dilandu said:
Well, as Lenin said "capitalist would gladly sold you a rope so you could hang him", and Lenin was a pretty smart guy... ;)
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Lenin underestimated us. We’ll make sure the rope fits properly around our necks and check for proper length for either tree or gallows.
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Lenin learned to despise us by studying at the British Museum Library.

blogs.bl.uk

I beg to apply for a ticket: Lenin at the British Library

The founder of the world’s first socialist state, Vladimir Il'ich Lenin, visited London six times between 1902 and 1911, and on at least five of these occasions found the time to call into the British Museum whose Library collections were in his view unparalleled. At the time of his 1907...
blogs.bl.uk blogs.bl.uk
 
TsrJoe said:
Having been approached with an offer of work in China a couple of years back myself and politely declined, had I been a decade or so younger and without ties I'd have jumped at the opportunity to sign up for a couple of years (likewise a similar offer to work in India)
I have colleagues who have taken up such offers who have continued in their professions and seem much happier too. I certainly would not denigrate others taking up such opportunities either, in current society, loyalty and ties to ones country are certainly not what they may once had been.
Given the UK.s current status, both politically and economically I can fully understand anyone taking up employment overseas especially if offered a substantial salary package. :)
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What I dont understand: arent you bound by your security clearance? you cant tell them anything about the systems, the tactics... so for what are they using the pilots?
 
And of course the USA (or Britain for that matter) has never employed foreign national military advisers, engineers or scientists nor ever made use or exploited foreign technology for its own benefit nor ever tried to bribe or suborn foreign nationals into defecting or becoming agents or supplying classified information.

The fact the scale of pay in the RAF is relatively low is not a secret and therefore is ripe for this sort of thing. £237k is more than twice the wage of an Air Commodore. No wonder Pilot Officer 'Gobby' Prune might have a punt...
daysackmedia.co.uk

RAF Pay Scales

A complete list of each rank in the Royal Air Force and how much they get paid.
daysackmedia.co.uk daysackmedia.co.uk
 
ok, having worked in England in aerospace, salaries are pretty shite...
 
If true (and im still not convinced re the kneejerk headlines) i'm pretty sure an extensive debriefing would be of more use in this case and might quietly mitigate any possible legal measures :)
 
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