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TZoli's Warship Designs

Tzoli

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Continuing the British line, an improved London:

A 5 turreted County Class Heavy Cruiser of the London Subclass. I added the 5th turret before the 4th one, removed the aft mast and moved forward the aft superstructure and range finders. I also added 4 extra 102mm AA Guns in two turrets to the aft.
 

Jemiba

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Well, me again, sorry !
AFAIK, the modernisation of the HMS London wasn't judged a success, so I don't think, that
another ship of this kind would have been built. IF more 8 inch had been built, maybe as an
answer to the Mogamis/Tones, to my opinion, they would have been closer to the original layout.
Or, if built later, the fault of the too large and heavy bridge wouldn't have been repeated.
 

Tzoli

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Jemiba said:
Well, me again, sorry !
AFAIK, the modernisation of the HMS London wasn't judged a success, so I don't think, that
another ship of this kind would have been built. IF more 8 inch had been built, maybe as an
answer to the Mogamis/Tones, to my opinion, they would have been closer to the original layout.
Or, if built later, the fault of the too large and heavy bridge wouldn't have been repeated.
I don't know, the countries were designed and used for the Big British Empire so for long voyages.
Also this was too among my earlier drawings
 

Tzoli

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Continue the British line:



An Improved Vanguard with 4x3 15inch mark II guns intended for the KGV and 12x2 5,25inch AA Guns
 

Jemiba

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Plausible, I think, as HMS Vanguard got its main artillery just because it was on stock,
as a leftover of the modification of HMS Glorious and Courageous.
 

Tzoli

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Indeed it is!

My version of the Fujimoto's 1936 Dream Battleship:
 

Jemiba

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Such a design would have lent itself for conversion into a hybrid much more, than IJN Ise or Hyuga
 

Tzoli

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Jemiba said:
Such a design would have lent itself for conversion into a hybrid much more, than IJN Ise or Hyuga
Actually after the Battle of Midway and before the conversion of Ise and Hyuga all Capital ships of the IJN are considered for conversion except the Yamatos!

A quote from a different forum:
As I recall, not much work was done with the others.

Nagato and Mutsu were needed for the battleline.

The Kongos were the escorts for the fast carriers and had the designated expendable role for the Decisive Battle.

Fuso and Yamashiro were considered too slow (odd when you consider the Shadow program was producing 26 or so knot carriers that worked with the larger, faster fleet carriers, but I digress) and were doing valuable training work.

That left Ise and Hyuga, the latter's X-turret explosion practically sealing the deal....
and
Some more data about planned conversions:

Kongo class - 54 aircrafts, 30 knots, flight-deck size: 220m x 34m, 18 months to complete.
Rejected - as "unprofitable"

Fuso class - 54 aircrafts, 25 knots, flight-deck size: 210m x 34m, 18 months to complete.
It was planned to start conversion in June 1943 (in Kure and Yokosuka)
Rejected - because analysis showed that they would be ready at the time when new carriers were expected to enter service.
Second reason to abandon conversion plans was insufficient speed.

Ise class - 54 aircrafts, 25 knots, flight-deck size: 210m x 34m, 18 months to complete.
It was planned to start conversion in May 1943 (in Kure and Sasebo)
Rejected - see Fuso class.
Instead converted into hybrid-ships (less time required to prepare detailed plans)

Nagato class - 54 aircrafts, 25 knots, flight-deck size: 220m x 34m, 18 months to complete
Rejected - because some ships with big guns were still needed.

All above:
superstructure similar to Junyo class.
two-level hangar, two elevators
eight 127mm guns and unspecified number of 25mm

Yamato class - rejected without analysis as "too valuable to convert"
 

Jemiba

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Tzoli said:
Yamato class - rejected without analysis as "too valuable to convert"

Understandable, as in the realised form, it probabl it would have to sacrifice the after turret, but not in your
proposed design. The length of the quarterdeck is more or less unchanged and would have allowed for a
landing deck of about 80 metres length. Not too much, but about the same as was usable on an escort carrier
for landing, I think. So, enough for a kind of self-defence CAP.
 

Tzoli

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Well regarding Fujimoto's Dream Battleship:
Data:
Displacement: 56.000tons
Dimensions: 226,8 x 36,00 x 10,40 meters
Engines: 151.000shp 4 shafts, 52km/h
Armour: 152mm Belt, 76mm Deck
Armaments:
3x4 510mm Cannons
8x2 155mm Guns
9x2 127mm DP-AA Guns
 

Jemiba

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Are you sure about the belt armour ? Would have been on a par with the WW I Invincibles ..
 

Tzoli

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Jemiba said:
Are you sure about the belt armour ? Would have been on a par with the WW I Invincibles ..
Yes I'm sure.
That is the consequence to put that much heavy armament on an 50.000 ton hull!




Though on this site it was stated 406mm Belt and 279mm Deck armour:
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/history/marshall/military/wwii/Japanese.navy/jap_yamoto_bat.txt
it is also incorrectly states 10x 127mm AA guns.
But if you make the calculations with such thick belt and deck armour on such small displacement the main turrets would have paper thin armour to save weight!
 

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Tzoli said:
Yes I'm sure.
That is the consequence to put that much heavy armament on an 50.000 ton hull!
At a design speed of just over 30 knots, I suppose one could classify it as a battlecruiser.
 

Jemiba

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Thanks for the clarification, I stumbled across the low displacement, too. As Grey wrote, it would
have been rather a battlecruiser, than a battleship. ... and Fujimoto a worthy descendant of Lord Fisher !
 

Tzoli

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Fujimoto designed many ships for the IJN, and he draw the Fuso Replacement Battleships!
 

Tzoli

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I still got drawings left :)

My version of the proposed later war (1944) cruiser design for the Australian Navy:


It would be similar in appearance to the Crown Colony, Minotaur/Swiftsure or Tiger class light cruisers but instead of 152mm (6") Guns it would have been equipped with 133mm (5.25") ones in 4 triple turrets.
The turrets itself would be either a normal box like one used for the 152mm Guns or as my drawing suggests a triple barrelled variant of the 5.25" Mark I's (These can be seen on the Dido, King George V, Lion and Vanguard class warships)
 

Tzoli

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And now a Modernized Never-Were from my Country:


This is in my opinion how would look like the Austro Hungarian navy'sWW 1 era battlecruiser: "Design I" after modernization in the 1930's. As the A-H navy disbanded after WW1 we don't know how would their ships looked like so I choose Italian design with German AA guns.I call her SMS Count Széchenyi

Armaments:
Original WW1 one:
3x3 35cm K14 Cannons
18x1 15cm K10 Guns

My Extra AA Armament:
6x2 10,5cm SK C/33 DP-AA Guns
 

Jemiba

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Tzoli said:
... so I choose Italian design with German AA guns.
Nice ! The shape of the fuselage very much reminds me on the German battlecruisers
of the Derfflinger class.
 

Tzoli

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Jemiba said:
Tzoli said:
... so I choose Italian design with German AA guns.
Nice ! The shape of the fuselage very much reminds me on the German battlecruisers
of the Derfflinger class.
That is called Superstrucutre :)
And it's the same as the Littorio or the Modernized Andrea Doria and Conte di Vacour :)
 

Arjen

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I think Jens is referring to the hull ('Schiffsrumpf') shape which is similar to Derfflinger's.
 

Tzoli

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Well both are German Heritage
Derfflinger is the Imperial German one while Design I is the Austrian one.

About Derfflinger...
Somebody asked me to draw a modernized one, and such this was born:

The 12 Casemated 15cm guns removed, and replaced with 10 single turrets of the same calibre but modern guns seen on the Deutschland class Big Gun Cruisers, 6 twin 105mm Flak cannons ware added, reworked superstructure engine and funnels.
 

Tzoli

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Well it's your decision.

Now Alternative Tone Cruiser:


Originally the Japanese Tone class heavy cruisers started their life as light cruisers with 4x3 155mm Guns but this changed to 4x2 203mm ones. I made some modifications to them by rearranging the turrets so all of them looks forward, this allowed to move the turrets a few meters aft, and have better protection from the belt armour which was thin near the nose. On the other hand this somewhat limited the turrets capability to fire aft.
 

Tzoli

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A pretty good looking battleship design I've made:
South Dakota Battleship Nelson Variant
 

Tzoli

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I'm slowly starting to run out of drawings to post here, but I still have some few more!

This is my idea of a Modernized Design VI Battlecruiser of the Austro-Hungarian Navy:

It's guns are pretty large for its era, 420mm guns in two twin turrets, it also got more space on its deck, I put 10x2 105mm AA guns and more light AA especially on the platform between the funnels.
 

Tzoli

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Next a Spanish variant of the Italain Littorio:


After the Spanish Civil War Franco wished to enlarge the Spanish Armada and for such new cruiser designs emerged, both light and heavy ones, these would be built in Span but Franco wanted 4 new Battleships as well. He choose that the Italian Littorio classes would be an excellent addition to the new Spanish Armada. 4 such ships ordered based on the Littorio and to built in Italy, but with small changes like no secondary guns and Spanish type 120mm AA guns in double turrets instead of the Italian 90mm singles. From these I draw this battleship.
 

Jemiba

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Is that a pure what-if, or is there a grainof truth in those plans about Spains naval re-armament ?
Sorry, I'm not familiar with the Spanish naval history.
 

Arjen

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Found one reference in 'Schlachtschiffe und Schlachtkreuzer 1905-1970' by Siegfried Breyer, Manfred Pawlak Verlag Gmbh 1970, p347:
Ein 1940 beschlossenes Bauprogramm sah 4 Schlachtschiffe zu je 35000 ts mit je 8 oder 9--38 cm-SK sowie 14 >Panzerschiffe< zu je 15000 ts vor, dazu 18 Zerstörer und 14 UBoote. Es war von vornherein offenkundig, daß dieses Programm nur unter größten Anstrengungen und nur in einen längeren Zeit hätte verwirklicht werden können. Zunächst erwog man, nur eines von den 4 geplanten Schlachschiffen und 3 der vorgesehenen >Panzerschiffe< zu beginnen; selbst dazu ist es jedoch nicht gekommen, da Spanien durch den langen Bürgerkrieg innerlich ausgeblutet und finanziell ruiniert war.
A building program decreed in 1940 foresaw four battleships, each 35000 tonnes, each with 8 or 9 38cm guns and 14 >ironclads< of 15000 tonnes each, plus 18 destroyers and 14 submarines. It was expected from the outset that this program could only be realized with great effort and after a long time. First, it was planned to start on one of the 4 battleships and 3 of the intended >ironclads<; even that was not to be as Spain was internally bled by the long civil war and financially ruined.
 

Jemiba

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Many thanks ! The mention of 38 cm guns and the term "Panzerschiff" suggests close collaboration
with Germany, but Italy wold be likely, too, of course.
 

Arjen

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Breyer explicitly mentions 38.1 cm for British and Italian guns, so his mentioning 38 cm guns would indeed point to German guns.
 

Tzoli

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It was stated that Franco wanted Littorios but slightly improved in their AA Armament, probably they know that single 90mm guns for Battleships are inadequate!
As for the cruisers there were plans for regular light cruisers:
the Project 124 from 1936 with 2x3,2x2 152mm guns
or from Anslado with 4x3 152mm Guns from 1940
Heavy cruisers such as:
the Project 131 from 1937 with 3x2 203mm Cannons,
the Project 138 from 1939:
Version A with 4x3 203mm Cannons,
Version B from 1939 with 3x2 280mm Cannons (German [font=arial,helvetica]Scharnhorst's cannons),[/font]
Version C from 1939 with 2x3 305cm Cannons (Ex cannons of the Espanas)
or 2 designs from Anslado with either 4x2 or 3x3 203mm Cannons from 1940



(By the way how can I turn off the built in algrotihms of the message box so if I copy paste from another source I only paste as text and not with it's extra info??? (Style, link, colour etc) )
 

Arjen

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Paste your text into notepad if on windows, text editor if on linux. Then copy text from notepad/text editor, paste into message box. That should remove any text properties you don't want copied.
 

Tzoli

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Another Italian creation of mine:
RM Otranto:

A person asked me if I can draw a modified Andrea Doria Class Battleship to fit in as a Battlecruiser.
What I basically did was remove the aft main twin turret as requested and shortened the entire hull thus born this design.
I think it could go well together with the Historical Project 1933 BC:
 

Tzoli

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My idea for the purposed Super Cruiser by Winston Churchill in 1939-40:




 

Jemiba

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Great work and looking plausible as a ship between HMS Belfast and the KGVs. Could have been worthwhile
as a counter to the "Pocket Battleships". Smaller calibre guns, but double the number and better protection.
And as the Town class was originally envisaged to have four quadruple turrets, it may be plausible here, too.
 

Tzoli

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Jemiba said:
Great work and looking plausible as a ship between HMS Belfast and the KGVs. Could have been worthwhile
as a counter to the "Pocket Battleships". Smaller calibre guns, but double the number and better protection.
And as the Town class was originally envisaged to have four quadruple turrets, it may be plausible here, too.
It was a real design from 1939 when Winston Churchill proposed a Super Cruiser to fight enemy heavy cruisers.
These were to be the stats:

Dimensions: 220m x 25.6m x 7.3m
Displacement: 22,000tons
Engine Power: 154.000shp 4 shafts, 61km/h (33knots)
Range: 18.500km on 30km/h (10.000nm on 16knots)
Armour: 7inch belt, 4inch deck (178/102mm)
Armaments:
12, 9.2inch (234mm) Guns in 3 quad turrets
12, 4.5in (114mm) AA Guns in 6 twin turrets
16, 40mm AA Guns in 4 quad turrets

Further study not continued on the super cruiser type as 4 ships would cost more then 3 Vanguards!
 

Jemiba

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Tzoli said:
It was a real design from 1939 when Winston Churchill proposed a Super Cruiser to fight enemy heavy cruisers.
....
16, 40mm AA Guns in 4 quad turrets
Sorry, what I found just gave the number of guns, but not theri distribution, there's a fictional drawing
with 4 triple turrets, too.
But so, even better !
 

Tzoli

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Jemiba said:
Tzoli said:
It was a real design from 1939 when Winston Churchill proposed a Super Cruiser to fight enemy heavy cruisers.
....
16, 40mm AA Guns in 4 quad turrets
Sorry, what I found just gave the number of guns, but not theri distribution, there's a fictional drawing
with 4 triple turrets, too.
But so, even better !
I've only know 2 versions of the Churchill cruiser, the preferred 3 quadruple one and a bit smaller with 3 triple one. These featuring the 9.2inch guns.

The 8inch heavy cruisers have more variants ranging from 4x2 through 3x3 to 4x3 8inch turrets, but most designs featured the 3x3 variant and studies started in 1939 and ended in 1941/42. For AA Armament the earlier versions had 4inch AA guns while the later had 4.5inch ones. The AA too had different numbers: 4x2,6x2,8x2
 

Tzoli

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And now my version of the proposed 8inch Admiral class heavy cruisers of 1941:




 
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