All right people - let's fix the ubiquitous world hunger/water crisis, rising fascism, global climate change, sixth mass extinction, and ocean acidification, stat - but if not, let's just continue business as usual.Outstanding thread, great information from all posters.
Regards,
I was referring to Rick Rezabek, LOL.He got older, wiser, and even more devastatingly attractive.
No - Leon is not at all reasonable. Dude is insane.Elon is like a hothouse tomato grown in isolation. He's surrounded by too many influences. He is a reasonable guy but can be drawn off course quickly unless he identifies and sticks with good, calm role models.
While I understand your points, if we're talking about fielding an air force that is comprised of the best stealth aircraft that money can buy, I would think that a duo of The F-22 & YF-23 would have been a far better choice than pairing The Raptor with The F-35.No.
The YF-23 was incapable of doing VSTOL or taking off/landing from/on a carrier, in other words it was entirely incapable of meeting the JSF program specifications, on top of that it was a huge, twin engined, bloody expensive aircraft and one that had lost the ATF competition to LM´s YF-22 at that.
If the JSF program got scraped because the chaps at the Pentagon prefered a land CTOL only, big, twin engined, extremely expensive, strike fighter instead... then the Raptor was already in service with the USAF.
I mean, if you wanted the best Stealth Fighter, Just do F-23. Nuf saidWhile I understand your points, if we're talking about fielding an air force that is comprised of the best stealth aircraft that money can buy, I would think that a duo of The F-22 & YF-23 would have been a far better choice than pairing The Raptor with The F-35.
Lockheed-Martin has the full control over all the software for F-35 (is one of reasons why the jet is that expensive: constant maintenance and upgrades of software, which is so complex that the US government considers it a 'weapons system' on its own). Moreover, the software on export F-35s (except Israel's, of course), is 'dumbed down' - and it’s maintained in centralised fashion.
Lockheed-Martin has so much control over the software, that it can literally turn off single, selected F-35s. Own (those operated by US services) and/or those of export customers.
Sure, export customers have the option to disconnect their F-35s from the centralised software system. However, then the jet is also dumbed down: operational, but with much reduced capabilities.
Bottom line: as long as the USA are still friendly - and other people and nations doing what the USA demand - Lockheed-Martin is continuing to provide software updates for F-35s.
That said, F-16s - and then especially such old examples like delivered to Ukraine - are not that advanced, nor connected to any similar kind of centrally-operated software systems, like F-35s are.
I'm not denying this. I'm just saying that a) a F-16 didn't need that and b) it can be use as a restraint against the customer, perhaps for political reasons.@Archibald How many of the export partners / customers do you think are technically able to provide their own software maintenance capability for an aerospace system of this scale and complexity? Then filter again for how many do you think are willing to pay for this?
It would be tough to do so, considering the Hog is nowhere STOL as the OV-10s that operated from Tarawas.The Marines are the clear losers here, perhaps the USAF could donate all their A-10s that then get navalized? They might be able to operate from an America class?
Can't help but feel that this is another one of the fruits of the GWOT era where everything seems good on paper (Zumwalt guns, LCS) but a poor choice in reality.I don't know if these people ever think of the fact that R&D cost is mostly upfront or near term so like, just stick to the previous plan (ASM, F-22 + F-16F, and a plethora of other stuff that got shelved).
An F-16XL with F119s... and throw the money saved on more F-22s and a FB-23 equivalent.It would be tough to do so, considering the Hog is nowhere STOL as the OV-10s that operated from Tarawas.
I think the real killer is, why, if in an era where every facet of military spending faces massive scrutiny, is the Navy's Army's Air Force still allowed to exist? Or at least, due to the massive redundancy caused thereof, heavily micromanaged to the point they should just get a Harrier III and not new shiny stuff?
What really happened is that all Congress want in their involvement is "here I threw you a bone, just make do with it" and gave the services leeway to cook up some of the most horrific thing ever to compensate. I don't know if these people ever think of the fact that R&D cost is mostly upfront or near term so like, just stick to the previous plan (ASM, F-22 + F-16F, and a plethora of other stuff that got shelved).
This is an example where it is increasingly difficult to understand the capability of different fighters. e.g.Sensors wise, it's not much better or worse than what the J-35 offers to the Chinese.
I know it's been a year since you posted that, so your opinion may have changed. But I find it quite amusing that even with the F-35B the UK can barely operate their carriers. With their Lightnings regularly getting stranded somewhere or breaking down in general.I wonder if he acknowledges that without the F-35B the UK would not have aircraft carriers.
You don't really need to know the relative capability of one plane over the other in any respect. If they are in the same class of technologies (cutting edge AESA arrays), working with more or less the same available space onboard, they essentially become the same class of weaponry and whatever advantages you have are going to be minor and easily mitigated by planning and tactics.All AESA radars obviously aren't equally as capable as each other. But its basically impossible to tell from a picture.
Going to be a huge disagreement from myself and many others intimately familiar with this planeThe JSF program certainly wasn't perfect, but I think the development of the F-35B was overall more positive than the alternative of having no STOVL variant of the plane.
AndUnlike the CV variant, the JSF STOVL variant did not have a spot factor requirement levied upon it. Instead, the ORD specified a spotting requirement in operational terms. The USMC operators required that it be possible to park a total of six STOVL variants aft of the island on an LHA or LHD, such that none fouls the landing area and that any one of them can be moved without first moving any other. This requirement constrains the STOVL variant's wingspan to be no more than 35 ft.
Table 2 shows LHD elevator lengths and widths, with 50 feet being the longest elevator size on a LHD.Additionally, compatibility with deck elevators may constrain an aircraft's length, width, or both.
F-35B 3,000 lb. Overweight; Added Three Years/$6.5B
A significant issue in early development, noted in Figure 2, was the weight of the F-35B variant. Because the F-35B takes off and lands near-vertically, weight is a particularly critical factor, as aircraft performance with low- to no-airspeed depends directly on the ratio of engine thrust to aircraft weight.
What features were cut out just to make the B work?The delay was exacerbated by the consolidation of the former JAST and ASTOVL programs, discussed in footnote 33. Normally, in a development program, the most technically simple variant is developed first, and lessons are applied while working up to more complicated variants. Because the Marine Corps’ Harrier fleet was reaching the end of life before the Air Force and Navy fleets the F-35 was designed to replace, in this case, the most complicated variant—the F-35B—had to be developed first. That meant the technical challenges unique to STOVL aircraft delayed all of the variants.
South Korea canceled their program and Spain said no thanksAs per the current status quo, the F-35B is the only option for providing Japan, South Korea, the UK, and Italy (plus potentially Australia and Spain in the future as they both have light carriers but haven't ordered the F-35B yet) with a naval-based fifth generation fighter.
In the summer of 1993, the Secretary of Defense Bottom-Up Review acknowledged the Services’ need to affordably replace their aging strike assets to maintain the nation’s combat technological edge. In September 1993, during the presentation of the Bottom-Up Review, the Secretary of Defense formally announced his intent to cancel the Navy Advanced Attack Fighter (AF/X) and the Air Force Multi-Role Fighter (MRF) programs and create the Joint Advanced Strik Technology (JAST) Program. Together, the AF/X and MRF programs were unaffordable. In October 1993, the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition and Technology (USD[A&T]) approved the initial joint Service plan for the JAST Program as a comprehensive advanced technology effort to prepare the way for the next generation of strike weapon systems. After announcing his approval of the joint Service plan to the Congressional Defense Committees and requesting their support, the USD(A&T) formally established the JAST (now the Joint Strike Fighter, JSF) Program in January 1994.
Here's a 2003 Congressional Research Service report:FY 1995 Congressional legislation merged the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) Advanced Short Take-Off and Vertical Landing (ASTOVL) Program with the JSF Program.
Basically, the Navy had a long range strike platform in mind (AF/X) and the Air Force had a multi-role fighter program replacement (MRF) in mind. Their cancellation resulted in JAST, a technology sharing program that did not mandate a new platform.The JSF program emerged in late 1995 from the Joint Advanced Strike Technology (JAST) program, which began in late 1993 as a result of the Administration’s Bottom-Up Review (BUR) of U.S. defense policy and programs. Having affirmed plans to abandon development of both the A-12/AFX aircraft that was to replace the Navy’s A-6 attack planes and the multi-role fighter (MRF) that the Air Force had considered to replace its F-16s, the BUR envisaged the JAST program as a replacement for both these programs. In 1994, the JAST program was criticized by some observers for being a technology-development program rather than a focused effort to develop and procure new aircraft. In 1995, in response to congressional direction, a program led by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) to develop an advanced short takeoff and vertical landing (ASTOVL) aircraft was incorporated into the JAST program, which opened the way for Marine Corps and British Navy participation. The name of the program was then changed to JSF to focus on joint development and production of a next-generation fighter/attack plane.
Going to be a huge disagreement from myself and many others intimately familiar with this planeThe JSF program certainly wasn't perfect, but I think the development of the F-35B was overall more positive than the alternative of having no STOVL variant of the plane.
The tradeoffs for STOVL are massive and pervasive every day and will continue to haunt the program for the rest of its life. Do you even know why the F-35 is proportioned the way it is? Despite being ~30k empty (A, the B and C are even heavier), it is only 51 feet long and 35 feet wide. Similar aircraft in that weight class - the F-15 and F/A-18E/F - are 60 feet long and 44 feet wide.
It's entirely because the Marine Corps had an absolutely ridiculous requirement to fit 6 JSF behind the tower of an LHA/LHD, and also the LHA/LHD elevator!
Here is a 2002 paper written by the Joint Program Office (JPO) titled "The Influence of Ship Configuration on the Design of the Joint Strike Fighter": https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA399988.pdf
Note that this was written in 2002, when they were knee deep in making those early hard design choices that cannot be easily changed later. The report spells it out VERY clearly what constrained the F-35B:
AndUnlike the CV variant, the JSF STOVL variant did not have a spot factor requirement levied upon it. Instead, the ORD specified a spotting requirement in operational terms. The USMC operators required that it be possible to park a total of six STOVL variants aft of the island on an LHA or LHD, such that none fouls the landing area and that any one of them can be moved without first moving any other. This requirement constrains the STOVL variant's wingspan to be no more than 35 ft.
Table 2 shows LHD elevator lengths and widths, with 50 feet being the longest elevator size on a LHD.Additionally, compatibility with deck elevators may constrain an aircraft's length, width, or both.
The woes you've heard about heat and power generation issues and various upgrade issues come in no small part due to the fact that the constrained volume makes it extremely hard to pack more electronics in that space without causing massive heat and cooling issues. Ask anyone who has built a mini gaming PC what a challenge that is.
The B was so overweight and infeasible that they had to remove a ton of features which affected the A and C (in the misguided name of commonality) and delayed the program by years and increased costs:
https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/RL30563
F-35B 3,000 lb. Overweight; Added Three Years/$6.5BA significant issue in early development, noted in Figure 2, was the weight of the F-35B variant. Because the F-35B takes off and lands near-vertically, weight is a particularly critical factor, as aircraft performance with low- to no-airspeed depends directly on the ratio of engine thrust to aircraft weight.What features were cut out just to make the B work?The delay was exacerbated by the consolidation of the former JAST and ASTOVL programs, discussed in footnote 33. Normally, in a development program, the most technically simple variant is developed first, and lessons are applied while working up to more complicated variants. Because the Marine Corps’ Harrier fleet was reaching the end of life before the Air Force and Navy fleets the F-35 was designed to replace, in this case, the most complicated variant—the F-35B—had to be developed first. That meant the technical challenges unique to STOVL aircraft delayed all of the variants.
Moreover, because the B does not share the same weapons bays as the A and C, it created a whole new platform requiring certification and weapons compatibility for, further complicating weapons integration on this jet.
And I mentioned weight - historically speaking, all fighters get heavier with age as we want to slap upgrades on the jet.
The B was so overweight that the B has smaller brakes than the A and the C. That's how far they had to cut just to save weight, to say nothing about accepting lower redundancy by removing some backup systems and accepting more single points of failure.
You think you can just easily slap upgrades on the A and C without blowing past the weight limits on the B? This of course further complicates upgrades for all the variants, as it adds another constraint that would otherwise not necessarily be a big factor.
All in all, it is a very very tough pill to swallow for the Air Force (who is buying 1000 A's) and the Navy (who already didn't want its program merged in with the Harrier-replacement - more on that below)
South Korea canceled their program and Spain said no thanksAs per the current status quo, the F-35B is the only option for providing Japan, South Korea, the UK, and Italy (plus potentially Australia and Spain in the future as they both have light carriers but haven't ordered the F-35B yet) with a naval-based fifth generation fighter.
Australia also straight up said they are not replacing their F/A-18Fs with F-35s, despite buying them originally as a stop gap for a 4th squadron of F-35s. So zero chance of them buying the inferior B model if they're not even willing to buy more A's to replace the F/A-18Fs.
In fact, Australia follows the same trend as the UK as early adopters waffling and reducing their originally envisioned order of F-35s.
So cool, we got Japan and... Italy, which was already one of partner nations that was always likely getting B's to replace its Harriers anyways.
Absolutely not worth the tradeoff to the 1000s of A's and C's that we're relying on
Also, in case you missed it, the recent Marine Master Aviation Plan is changing its ratio of B's and C's from 5:1 to 2:1.
So after demanding - and getting - all these compromises on the F-35 to fit USMC requirements, they're now slowly backing away from that troublesome child?
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Now, I mentioned the Navy's disappointing in the whole thing. Contrary to what Internet posters will keep saying, ASTOVL was not the one that JSF was merged into - ASTOVL in no way shape or form was botched by JAST/JSF. ASTOVL was the one merged into Joint Advanced Strike Technology (JAST) which then became Joint Strike Fighter
Here's a contemporary (1997) report:
https://secwww.jhuapl.edu/techdigest/content/techdigest/pdf/V18-N01/18-01-Steidle.pdf
In the summer of 1993, the Secretary of Defense Bottom-Up Review acknowledged the Services’ need to affordably replace their aging strike assets to maintain the nation’s combat technological edge. In September 1993, during the presentation of the Bottom-Up Review, the Secretary of Defense formally announced his intent to cancel the Navy Advanced Attack Fighter (AF/X) and the Air Force Multi-Role Fighter (MRF) programs and create the Joint Advanced Strik Technology (JAST) Program. Together, the AF/X and MRF programs were unaffordable. In October 1993, the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition and Technology (USD[A&T]) approved the initial joint Service plan for the JAST Program as a comprehensive advanced technology effort to prepare the way for the next generation of strike weapon systems. After announcing his approval of the joint Service plan to the Congressional Defense Committees and requesting their support, the USD(A&T) formally established the JAST (now the Joint Strike Fighter, JSF) Program in January 1994.Here's a 2003 Congressional Research Service report:FY 1995 Congressional legislation merged the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) Advanced Short Take-Off and Vertical Landing (ASTOVL) Program with the JSF Program.
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA472774.pdf
Basically, the Navy had a long range strike platform in mind (AF/X) and the Air Force had a multi-role fighter program replacement (MRF) in mind. Their cancellation resulted in JAST, a technology sharing program that did not mandate a new platform.The JSF program emerged in late 1995 from the Joint Advanced Strike Technology (JAST) program, which began in late 1993 as a result of the Administration’s Bottom-Up Review (BUR) of U.S. defense policy and programs. Having affirmed plans to abandon development of both the A-12/AFX aircraft that was to replace the Navy’s A-6 attack planes and the multi-role fighter (MRF) that the Air Force had considered to replace its F-16s, the BUR envisaged the JAST program as a replacement for both these programs. In 1994, the JAST program was criticized by some observers for being a technology-development program rather than a focused effort to develop and procure new aircraft. In 1995, in response to congressional direction, a program led by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) to develop an advanced short takeoff and vertical landing (ASTOVL) aircraft was incorporated into the JAST program, which opened the way for Marine Corps and British Navy participation. The name of the program was then changed to JSF to focus on joint development and production of a next-generation fighter/attack plane.
In 1995, however, DARPA's ASTOVL program was merged into JAST, which then mandated a common platform - that program was renamed Joint Strike Fighter. As a result, we had three clashing sets of requirements:
End result is that the A and B clashed the least - mass produced and lightweight and thus cheaper. The Navy's goals were thrown out, resulting in the Navy the least invested/caring of the program, as people will often tell you. So it is entirely correct to say that it was the STOVL/F-35B that affected JAST/JSF the most, because it was the one merged into a program that was never envisioned for it. Really hard to get a F-14/A-6/F-111/F-117/F-15E replacement in a Harrier-replacement form factor
- Air Force wanted a cheap mass produced replacement for the F-16
- Marine Corps and UK wanted a Harrier replacement - thus had to be lightweight for vertical landings but fancy expensive engine
- Navy wanted a high-end strike fighter to replace what the A-12 had once promised
Bottom-Up Review