Thomas-Morse S-series

[Jan den Das]

Hai
The S-series of the Thomas-Morse factory started with the S-4.
Who has information etc. concerning S-1, -2 and -3 projects?
In the line of the S-4 there is missing the S-4D who has any information of this project?
The S-5 was original with an rotary engine was later rebuild with a water cooled engine.
Who can help me with drawings/dimension/colors/etc. of this version?
Thanks
J.

 

[Stargazer]

I don't have any S-1, S-2 or S-3 in my Thomas-Morse list. Here is what I have prior to the S-4 series:

TA
TA TRACTOR
TA HYDRO
HEADLESS BIPLANE
B-3/4
E SPECIAL BIPLANE
MONOPLANE
NACELLE PUSHER
T-2
D-2
D-2 HS SEAPLANE (Navy)
SH-4 (Navy)
BP BATTLEPLANE
D-5
10A (no data)
10AT (no data)
FLYING BOAT (no data)
METAL FLYING BOAT (no data)

 

[Jan den Das]

Thanks, but this are not any answers on my questions.
The aero planes are not from Thomas-Morse, but from the Thomas Bros. period.
J

 

[lark]

Maybe - Aerofiles net - will help you on the way.
Search for Thomas/Thomas-Morse.
Good luck...

 

[Stargazer]

The first Thomas-Morse aircraft I could find was the S-4. If S-1 to S-3 ever existed, they were projects, and given they date back to circa 1917, chances are there's probably nothing left of them...

 

[Jos Heyman]

It is my guess (but that's what it is, just a guess) that Thomas Bros./Thomas Morse used a designation system (if you can call it that) based on military designations (a few, and they are not the guess) and designations based on the designer (that's the guess). Some of these designers could have come from elsewhere and continue their private series. So if you find out who the designer for the S.4 etc is, you can google on that name. But my data base does not mention the designer's name.

Having said that, I found in my database:
Thomas S

Specifications:
span: 44', 13.41 m
length: 28'9", 8.76 m
engines: 2
max. speed: 81 mph, 130 km/h

The model S was a battle aircraft with two guns. Two were ordered by the US Navy with serials A140/141 but these were cancelled. Also known as the Thomas BP.

 

[Apophenia]

Jos: the designer was Benjamin Douglas Thomas (unrelated). Does anyone know when he joined Thomas Bros. (or Thomas-Morse)? I saw one reference saying that, as well as the S-4 series, he'd designed the 1915 T-2.

 

[Jos Heyman]

OK, I said it was a guess only - was wrong
Dana Bell's Directory of Airplanes makes no mention of an S-1, S-2 or S-3. Just for information.

 

[Jan den Das]

Hai Interresting
But dont trust aerofiles to much.
I asked about the S-5 but I mnetioned the S-4E.
Concerning the S- there was a whole line with designs.
Thomas was already with Thomas Bros.
He came from England and worked for Vickers/sopwith.
J

 

[Stargazer]

But dont trust aerofiles to much.

You are right, I spotted quite a few mistakes on that site. I generally use it as a basis for research and always verify the information if I can. The problem is, there was a time when you could send an e-mail and add or correct information... but since the site's creator passed away, his heirs stubbornly refuse that the site be changed or even updated in any way...

 

[Jan den Das]

Hi
S what is mentioned concerning the BP was in Jane's so????????
I have to look for more info of the BP and other projects Thomas Bros.
What about the S-4E with watercooled engine?
Drawings/dimensions?
J

 

[Clioman]

There's a good article on the S-4 by Peter Bowers in the Aug/Sep '63 issue of Air Progress. My scanner is on the fritz, but summarized it says that Thomas Bros. Aeroplane Co. merged w/the Morse Chain Co. to form Thomas-Morse on Jan 31, 1917. The first S-4 was built soon thereafter. The chief designer was B. Douglas Thomas, an Englishman not related to the founding brothers. Glenn Curtiss had hired Thomas away from Sopwith in 1914, and Thomas apparently laid down the basic design for what became the Curtiss Model J before he left England for Hammondsport, NY. Thereafter Thomas left Curtiss to join what became Thomas-Morse.

Bowers' article says that the prototype S-4 was "doubtless influenced" by the Sopwith Tabloid, and that it was conceived as an unarmed advanced trainer. Thomas-Morse got a production order for 100 S-4B pursuit trainers from the US Army, and the US Navy bought five S-4Bs with the wheels replaced by "sea sled" pontoons. The Navy acft were called S-5s. The Army ordered 1,050 S-4Cs, of which 497 had been delivered before the contract was cancelled at war's end. The Armistice also killed any chances for the S-4E (an S-4C w/redesigned wings) and the S-6, a slightly enlarged, two-seat version of the S-4C. The S-9 of 1919 was essentially an S-4C with a corrugated metal fuselage. The Army refused the S-9, but Thomas continued to tinker with variants of it until the result became the O-19 of 1928-31. Thomas-Morse' aviation division was bought by Consolidated in 1929. Thomas went to work for Consolidated and retired from Convair in the very early 1960s.

The article makes no mention of anything prior to the S-4, nor does it mention the S-4D or the S-7 and S-8.

 

[Stargazer]

Glenn Curtiss had hired Thomas away from Sopwith in 1914, and Thomas apparently laid down the basic design for what became the Curtiss Model J before he left England for Hammondsport, NY. Thereafter Thomas left Curtiss to join what became Thomas-Morse.

All of this is true, but I'd like to add that Curtiss hired Thomas after a visit to England he did in 1913 when he was working on the Model H transatlantic flying-boat project. That was therefore the first project he worked on at Curtiss. But true, the J was his first personal design, not the H.

The article makes no mention of anything prior to the S-4, nor does it mention the S-4D or the S-7 and S-8.

I have nothing on a possible S-4D or an S-8. However, this is what I have about the S-7: it was a 1919 side-by-side cockpit biplane, advertised as "The Sociable Seater" and powered by an 80 hp Le Rhône engine.

 

[lark]

Stargazer..

My reply was not meant for you,no need thus to get excited...

About Thomas Brothers Aircraft and Thomas-Morse Aircraft.
In "General Dynamics and their Predecessors"-Putnam- not a single mention
about the the built or unbuilt S.1-2 and 3 is made.

B.Douglas Thomas started design of what would become the S.4 in 1916. This lead in 1917
to the production of the S.4series and later the S.5-6 and 7.

All these aircraft are illustrated in the a fore mentioned book.
Several other works consulted for more information about produced no results.

 

[nglt]

Hello and greetings from Cornwall,
I came across your site after googling Benjamin Douglas Thomas. He emigrated to the US in 1914 to join Curtiss and in 1916 my great great Aunt joined him and married him in Manhattan. They had two boys but his wife tragically died in 1920.
I am researching his life but I know very little. I know he was recruited by Glen Curtiss and then joined the Thomas brothers. I also know that his eldest son died in California in 2004.
Does anyone have any further information about him or can point to any sources?
With thanks!
Nigel Turner

 

[Arjen]

This is from "The Thomas-Morse Scout" by Frank Strnad, Profile Publications #68, 1966.

By 1913 the Thomas brothers had built a number of succesful types of aircraft from metal-hulled flying boats to passenger carrying biplanes and tractor monoplanes.
The same year B. Douglas Thomas (no relation to the brothers) became their chief engineer and aircraft designer. He had an excellent background, having previously worked for Vickers, Ltd., and later with Sopwith Aviation Co. following his graduation from King's College, London. Glen Curtiss induced him to come to Hammondsport, New York where he assisted in the designing of the Model J tractor, which later became the "Jenny". With Lt. Porte, he also planned the "America", the first multi-engined flying boat built for a proposed trans-Atlantic flight.

 

[nglt]

Thanks Arjen, that's very interesting. You have provided me with some more avenues to pursue. I will add this to the website I am producing with a view to snaring googlers! (Google The Thomas family of Ithaca in a few days time).
Best wishes, Nigel

 

[Stargazer]

Contrary to what I wrote previously from (faulty) memory, B. D. Thomas worked on the Model J first. I had to go through the following article I wrote long ago* to be reminded of the details. Here is the story of how exactly Curtiss and Thomas met and subsequently worked together:

Curtiss, who was trying to gain experience in the field of tractor aircraft, crossed the Atlantic (by boat of course) to visit the Sopwith Aviation Company, the company which was producing the Bat Boat in Kingston-upon-Thames. When the foul English weather caught Curtiss by surprise, he rushed into a London bookstore; another man did the same, and he happened to be B. D. Thomas, a shy Sopwith engineer who hadn't dared speak to Curtiss on his visit at the factory, and was now finding himself in the same shop as him by some lucky twist of fate.

The two men didn't take long to talk, and Curtiss was sufficiently impressed by Thomas's expertise to offer to pay for his trip if he was to follow him to Paris, his next destination. Once in Paris, he urged Thomas to quit Sopwith and follow him to the United States so he could conceive a biplane tractor aircraft for him. Thus began a fruitful collaboration that was to lead to the creation of the types J and N, which in turn spawned the famous JN or "Jenny" line of trainers.

*NOTE: The above is the translation of an article I once submitted to Le Fana and which the editor-in-chief had approved for publication provided I changed a couple of things. As I had a tendancy to undermine myself, I shyed away from the project and never called them again...

 

[nglt]

Thanks for that. My impression of Curtiss is of a sort of Edwardian Richard Branson. It's a wonderful picture of that moment in the bookshop.
With your permission I will reproduce the story on my excuse for a website. Where did you find the story?
With many thanks, Nigel

 

[Arjen]

From "The Curtiss JN-4" by Peter M. Bowers, Profile Publications #37, 1965:

The company was short in tractor design and operating experience, so to save on the necessary development time, Curtiss decided to buy experience rather than develop it. After the decision was made to obtain an experienced designer, Mr. Glenn Curtiss hired B. Douglas Thomas, who had been a designer for Avro in England and was at the time a designer with Sopwith.
Mr. Thomas began the design of the new Curtiss tractor, to be designated the Model "J", while still in England, and completed it at Hammondsport. Powered with the 90-h.p. water-cooled OX engine built by the Curtiss Motor Company, the "J" drew heavily on Thomas' experience with Sopwith tractor designs, even to the shape of the one-piece vertical tail.

Back to Frank Strnad's "The Thomas-Morse Scouts":

In designing the S-4, B.D. Thomas was apparently influenced by his work at Sopwith. The empennage and the wing arrangements were similar to the Sopwith "Tabloid".

Benjamin Douglas Thomas was not averse to reusing ideas, and considering the success of both Curtiss Jenny and Thomas-Morse S-4 that was a good thing.

Please accept my apologies if this reaches you in bits and pieces, I'm sitting on an archive that's mainly paper. This sometimes gets in the way of immediate retrieval of information.

 

[nglt]

I don't mind bits and pieces! I am very grateful.
It seems to me (as someone whose involvement in aeronautics has been limited to trying to get to the front of the boarding line for an Easyjet flight) that B.D. Thomas played an important part in the early days of aviation.
Thanks very much, Best wishes, Nigel

 

[Stargazer]

My impression of Curtiss is of a sort of Edwardian Richard Branson.

Not really. The equivalent of Branson was probably Rodney Wanamaker, the big boss of a chain of department stores who sponsored Curtiss's Model H "America" flying boat with the hope to be the first to fly across the Atlantic in less than 72 hours. In this context Curtiss would be more like Burt Rutan I guess...

 

[nglt]

I just googled Burt Rutan, and I see what you mean.

 

[Clioman]

Nigel, the San Diego [California] Aerospace Museum has a large cache of Consolidated and Convair material. Since Thomas spent the remainder of his long career working for Consolidated and Convair after Consolidated bought out Thomas-Morse in 1929, it's possible that the Museum may have some biographical material that would be relevant to your research. Perhaps you'd want to google and/or contact the museum...for example, there are two images of Douglas Thomas in the Museum's photo collection that have been posted on line.

 

[nglt]

Hello Clioman,
That is very useful, thank you.
We now have three photos of BDT thanks to you.
I will follow up at San Diego.
Best wishes, Nigel

 

[Stargazer]

There's a good article on the S-4 by Peter Bowers in the Aug/Sep '63 issue of Air Progress. My scanner is on the fritz, but summarized it says that Thomas Bros. Aeroplane Co. merged w/the Morse Chain Co. to form Thomas-Morse on Jan 31, 1917. The first S-4 was built soon thereafter. The chief designer was B. Douglas Thomas, an Englishman not related to the founding brothers. Glenn Curtiss had hired Thomas away from Sopwith in 1914, and Thomas apparently laid down the basic design for what became the Curtiss Model J before he left England for Hammondsport, NY. Thereafter Thomas left Curtiss to join what became Thomas-Morse.

Bowers' article says that the prototype S-4 was "doubtless influenced" by the Sopwith Tabloid, and that it was conceived as an unarmed advanced trainer. Thomas-Morse got a production order for 100 S-4B pursuit trainers from the US Army, and the US Navy bought five S-4Bs with the wheels replaced by "sea sled" pontoons. The Navy acft were called S-5s. The Army ordered 1,050 S-4Cs, of which 497 had been delivered before the contract was cancelled at war's end. The Armistice also killed any chances for the S-4E (an S-4C w/redesigned wings) and the S-6, a slightly enlarged, two-seat version of the S-4C. The S-9 of 1919 was essentially an S-4C with a corrugated metal fuselage. The Army refused the S-9, but Thomas continued to tinker with variants of it until the result became the O-19 of 1928-31. Thomas-Morse' aviation division was bought by Consolidated in 1929. Thomas went to work for Consolidated and retired from Convair in the very early 1960s.

The article makes no mention of anything prior to the S-4, nor does it mention the S-4D or the S-7 and S-8.

I have scanned the said article and here it is (this is a 1963 mag so I suppose the ban on whole articles being scanned doesn't apply here).

 

[nglt]

That is very interesting. Thanks for remembering my interest in B.D. Thomas. I found that he had two sons, both engineers. One died a few years ago but lodged a number of folders in the San Diego Aerospace museum about his father. Incredibly, I think the other is still alive aged 92 in La Jolla near San Diego. I have street viewed his house and it looks as though a 92 year old lives there. I wrote to him a few weeks back, but no reply as yet. As a last resort it may be necessary to go to San Diego to copy the museum archive.

Best wishes! Nigel

 

[hesham]

Hi,

can I ask about early Thomas twin tractor seaplane,a Project as I think and
given the serial A-140/141 for two airplanes,but cancelled ?.

 

[Stargazer]

can I ask about early Thomas twin tractor seaplane,a Project as I think and
given the serial A-140/141 for two airplanes,but cancelled ?.

Answer is in the first page of this topic, here precisely: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,11792.msg113910.html#msg113910

 

[hesham]

Thanks.