The future that twentieth-century engineers dreamed of is dying???

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These sorts of discussions/arguments are boring
And yet, here you are. And "boring" is relative. To some it is *.
I think people need to remember that the primary purpose of the forum is to discuss unbuilt projects, military and aerospace technology in various forms.

Indeed yes. And inherent in that discussion is *why* a project went unbuilt. Why, say, did the TA 183 go unbuilt? Because the Germans LOST THE WAR. I.E. 'politics."

Why have so many jetliners gone unbuilt? Why do so many old jetliner designs get recycled?
 
Please stop blaming USSR for every American stupidity.
Not every one. But the KGB were masters at convincing their useful idiots to rally against technological progress in the West. It was a strategy that long outlived them; generations after the KGB and the USSR went belly up, their evil children continue to spawn more evil children. The commies were successful in ways the Nazis could have only *dreamed* of.
 
So basically, all those who disagree with you must be the evil children of communism.
 
…. An unability, or, worse, unwillingness to call out criminality and generally scummy behavior leads to everything getting worse. …..
This reflects on society’s willingness to pay for prisons to “warehouse”’the poorest members of society.
Rumor had it that one of the winos in my home town would slap a policeman every October just so that he could enjoy “three hits and cot” until the weather warmed in the springtime.
Western societies are increasingly reluctant to house petty criminals in prison. The lowest class of society will never evoke productive mebers of society because of physical impairments (fetal alcohol syndrome), pays holly is problems, drug addictions, laziness, etc. They steal because they will never be able to earn enough to support themselves. The poorest will never pay taxes because they will never be able to hold down a job. If the poorest are never going to pay taxes or register to vote, politicians don’t care.

At the other end of the scale, wealthier nations pay $30,000 or $50,000 or more per year to house the worst incorrigible murderers, to protect the general public from their predations. Imprisonment for life is a luxury that only the wealthier nations can afford.
 
This thread is now all over the place.
 
Tennis, anyone?
 
So basically, all those who disagree with you must be the evil children of communism.
No, just those whose beliefs are the products of communism. Since nothing *but* evil comes from communism, that part follows, but not all those who disagree with me are evil or communist. Some are simply wrong.
 
All the genocide and slavery probably helped


apparently you’re a fan
I'm actually a fan of historical ironies: if the former Spanish French and Portuguese colonies in Africa, India and South America had not become independent they would now be part of the European Union, while there are Eastern European countries willing to wage costly wars of independence in order to join the European Union. Who are they running from? At the other extreme is England, which has been forced to leave the European Union to avoid becoming a German colony. The devil is in the details.:D
 
Here's a little optimism, to improve the stale air.
 

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I've been a fan of this one ever since some AI produced it (I'm assuming, anyway) a few weeks back. Some things just look *right.* She needs to work on her trigger discipline, though.
 

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I've been a fan of this one ever since some AI produced it (I'm assuming, anyway) a few weeks back. Some things just look *right.* She needs to work on her trigger discipline, though.
Waiting for hubby to come home from work? Could be a scene from a Tarantino movie...
 
I've been a fan of this one ever since some AI produced it (I'm assuming, anyway) a few weeks back. Some things just look *right.* She needs to work on her trigger discipline, though.
Size is not important if you know how to use the weapon with discipline.
 

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Waiting for hubby to come home from work?
Could be. There are of course at least two ways that could go:
1: Hollywood way - wife waiting for scumbag or beta husband to come home so Strong Female Character can eliminate him
2: Better way - wife waiting for husband to come home so she can show off her new rifle, so they and the kids can go to the range for a fun evening.

But wait! There's more!

3: Even Better Way - same as 2, but the range is three kilometers anti-spinward in their 20-km dia, 90-km long dual-can colony currently orbiting Zeta Reticuli.
 
Could be. There are of course at least two ways that could go:
1: Hollywood way - wife waiting for scumbag or beta husband to come home so Strong Female Character can eliminate him
2: Better way - wife waiting for husband to come home so she can show off her new rifle, so they and the kids can go to the range for a fun evening.

But wait! There's more!

3: Even Better Way - same as 2, but the range is three kilometers anti-spinward in their 20-km dia, 90-km long dual-can colony currently orbiting Zeta Reticuli.
Hi
 

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The world of the Federation of Planets in Star Trek is remarkably UnAmerican. Officials of the Federation supervise all aspects of exploration and colonisation, including supervising and managing agriculture and mining.
The private sector seems limited to small scale trading in sex workers and domestic pets.
Further proof of Roddenberry's Europeenness can be found in the movie "Pretty Maids in a Row" where Rock Hudson (in the closet still) exposes the vacuous ethics of an all American High School. Oh and Scotty and the Squire of Gothos team up with Kojak.
 

Nothing about Tepco’s business model had anything to do with a free market economy (“capitalism”), they did what they did in a truly socialist manner in an non competitive environment. It was founded as a state own company and was “privatized” by the order of the Americans after WW2. Despite calling themselves a private company, they could keep their monopoly and produce electricity for about 1/3 of Japan’s population without any competitors. The lack of safety was a direct result of socialist thinking which values the hierarchy higher than competence and filly any institution with high number of different hierarchy levels full of incompetent people with good political connections.

Take a look on the aviation industry which operates competitive in a free marked (so called “Capitalism”) and shows a much higher degree od safety culture. The wee points of the Fukushima reactor (e.g. the lack of hydrogen combinators and problematic positioning of the water level gauges) were well known before and mandated to change by the Westinghouse, but simply ignored. This would have been unbelievable in the aviation sector.

Not to forget the Chernobyl incident, would you blame that too on “Capitalism”??
 
The world of the Federation of Planets in Star Trek is remarkably UnAmerican. Officials of the Federation supervise all aspects of exploration and colonisation, including supervising and managing agriculture and mining.
Uhhh... the US government would be *all* *over* regulating such things. Bureau of Land Management and Department of Agriculture nitpick the hell out of agriculture and mining *now.* If Americans started colonizing efforts - say, colonizing the vast empty stretches of Britain - you can rest assured the US FedGuv would instantly produce a Department of Colonization.

The private sector seems limited to small scale trading in sex workers and domestic pets.
Cyrano Jones was an independent asteroid prospector. Elder Sisko owned a restaurant. Cassidy Yates owned a tramp freighter. Everyone who could, did business with the Ferengi, because the Ferengi, since they were capitalists, got things *done.* And it seems everyone outside of the major urban areas packs heat. Most of the "point of view" seems to come specifically from Picard, and he is in many ways your stereotypical clueless and arrogant limosine liberal... preaching the virtues of not seeking wealth while owning a vast French vineyard complete with a bunch of actual servants. Relying on Picard to explain the reality of life in the UFP is kinda like relying on a Hollywood celebrity to do so. Which makes sense, given who writes him.

The UFP is not, as is often suggested, socialist. It is post scarcity. The state does not own the means of production; society does not collectively own the means of production. Individuals do, in the form of replicators (at least by the time of TNG). Most *stuff* is therefore free; wealth would come in the form of unreplicatable stuff such as "latinum," which is used as currency, and "land." If you have a lot of land, you're rich. Looking at you, Jean Luc.
 
Showing my age I was thinking of the world as it appears in ST original. I never really warmed to the later versions.
 
And yet the most egregious examples of corrupted media are those, like the BBC, that are vassals to State control.

And once again, these systems are often controlled by the State. China and Russia, for example, have heavily State-controlled media *and* state controlled social media.
Not every one. But the KGB were masters at convincing their useful idiots to rally against technological progress in the West. It was a strategy that long outlived them; generations after the KGB and the USSR went belly up, their evil children continue to spawn more evil children. The commies were successful in ways the Nazis could have only *dreamed* of.
The failure of the totalitarian and Communists projects is not in its evils, as such things is determined by the will of the leadership. The failure of those projects is in the inability to process complex information to adapt to fast paced modern economies.

The Soviet Union killed itself with its own contradictions as it just dissolved as no one believed in it anymore. This is the most dramatic failure in the information sphere imaginable.

Russia today is another case study of dysfunction where major advantages in resources does not translate to military capability but incompetence across multiple levels as, again, the population doesn't organically believe in the leadership's goals and fulfill them to their best of their ability, but muddle around with corrupt system kept in check by sheer violence.

Think about north korea. Smuggled south korea media products get smuggled into north korea when the threat of discovery is all the way up to death, while north korea media do not export to south korea. Think about all the state actors, and how much media space and mind space they take up the world.
------------------
The problem with technological process is capitalists do not universally want it. Successful capitalists seek regulatory capture of the state, establishment of monopolies with strategic regulations. The cooperation of monopolists and bureaucracy makes regulation bloat a natural thing.

The natural incompetence of non-competitive corporations and state structures result in a finite lifespan before new challengers overthrow them. This means progress is never as fast as it can be, but it is not halted completely like in dysfunctional totalitarian structures.

Luddites was one of the first response to capitalist-scientific driven social change, and they lost in the long run despite tactical victories. I don't see the regulatory state as a stronger opponent in general. It is more that fleeing such a state is easier than fighting it, since travel is so cheap after all.
 
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Showing my age I was thinking of the world as it appears in ST original. I never really warmed to the later versions.
Well, hell, son, the original series was *spectacularly* American. Kirk was religious to some degree, while Picard claimed that humanity had become universally atheist (a ridiculous assertion, but one that a limo-lib like him can be readily believed to believe); Kirk was a Big Big Fan of Abe Lincoln and had memorized the Declaration of Independence; he lied to carry a sidearm and he didn't mind other people doing likewise (his yeoman even using a phaser to warm up his coffee); he was proudly masculine and loved him some hot babes of every nationality/species; he loved rules *and* he loved breaking them. He was an iconic American for the time, and I'd say for all time.

Discussion of the economy of the Federation hardly ever popped up in TOS, but many humans were shown to have private sector jobs, including numerous self employed types; there was some difficulty in a medium of exchange because even in TOS-time before replicators so much "wealth" was readily manufacturable for cheap (Kirk could not be tempted with piles of jewels because they could be stamped out in the engine room en masse). Nevertheless the profit motive was there.

Yes, the Federation was shown to have layers of bureaucracy. And in TOS it was very common to show the higher ups in bureaucracy, especially Admirals in Starfleet, as being exactly what Americans tend to think of a bureaucrats: self important blowhards who stand in the way.

The world of TOS is best explained by the wars referenced from time to time: the Eugenics Wars, Colonel Greens War, World War III. They trashed the planet, but in rebuilding, humanity finally made something good. And it appears that in those wars the United States came out reasonably well, or at least better than the rest of the world, because the Federation and Starfleet are *clearly* built along American lines. Apparently those wars were largely fought in Eurasia and, possibly, South America and Africa, with the US being only tangentially involved. And that's not unlikely: it could well be that the next major IRL war could be something like India and China taking each other out... a war costing billions of lives with the US just sitting back going "leave me the frak out of this." The nuclear winter will finally end global warming but will trash agriculture for a few years; a hundred million middle eastern/African refugees swarm into Europe and trash the place simply under their weight, while the US doesn't get the same problem because the pack ice along the equator stops the boats. When everything settles, the US is triumphant by default. And thus, we get the world of Star Trek: TOS.


Now awaiting the inevitable complaints about that not being on topic. Don't care. Trek is awesome when it doesn't suck.
 
Nothing about Tepco’s business model had anything to do with a free market economy (“capitalism”), they did what they did in a truly socialist manner in an non competitive environment. It was founded as a state own company and was “privatized” by the order of the Americans after WW2. Despite calling themselves a private company, they could keep their monopoly and produce electricity for about 1/3 of Japan’s population without any competitors.
Being a monopolist doesn't rule out being a capitalist.
Antitrust legislation is needed to undo/prevent cartels, monopolies and price-fixing.
Even the USA has antitrust legislation.
 
The title of this thread at least implies, that it has to do with some kind of technology, but most of the posts now deal
with politics. That is an interesting theme, and I know, that nearly everybody of us (me too !) is somehow trying to tell
his opinions and fears about the current situation to others, but please, there certainly are other places, than here ?
So, please back to the engineers dreams, but please within the limits of the forum rules ! Someone here already
warned, that this discussions may be in danger to closed ...
 
Or do you want to continue playing tennis?
Apparently this makes sense to you, but it comes across as gibberish to me.

PS: the US is, sadly, not that capitalist.


For those reading along and grumbling "grrr, arrgh, politics," this is just facts. Engineering is based on facts... if it's *good* engineering. Crap engineering is based on non-facts such as Manager Promises, Marketing Delusions And Outright Lies, Other Ways Of Knowing. That's another reason why the engineering dreams of the past aren't being borne out: too many actual efforts to build stuff were sabotaged by engineering that was undermined by corruption (see: "tofu dreg construction") and just plain dreadful designs (see: Florida international U). When you go from a society that builds and builds and builds constantly better stuff to one that sees stuff falling apart, faith in engineering falters, even if it's not the fault of engineering.
 
There.
Start your own thread, don't hijack this one - again. Not even when tennis comes up.
Who's hijacking it? I am *fantastically* on topic, arguing some engineering dreams and why many haven't come true. You're going on about tennis rather than engaging. I've not seen you come up with theories why dreams have failed, just mostly complaining that people have opinions you don't like.
 
Being a monopolist doesn't rule out being a capitalist.
Antitrust legislation is needed to undo/prevent cartels, monopolies and price-fixing.
Even the USA has antitrust legislation.
Unlike in Marx predictions, Tepco didn’t get the monopoly by growing and outcompeting other companies, it was just given to them. We had similar structures in Germany and the EDF in France (surly better in terms of safety) is another example of socialistic structures in western nations. The main target for those companies was never to be very efficient to be competitive, but to offer as much well payed jobs as possible for ex-politicians and their allied. Another purpose of those energe supply monsters was money transfer and financing, the French government transferred their depts to EDF, so that their budget looked better than it was. The RWE (ab large, traditional very coal orientated electricity supplier in western Germany) sold electricity for high prices to pay of their shareholder, sounds like capitalism, right? Truth is, those shareholders were mainly towns and the country of NRW which were ruled by the socialist…

Anyhow, you still haven’t explained why socialist nuclear power plants have been saver than their capitalist counterpart.

Despite nuclear power, the pollution of air/water/ground was much worse in the socialist states than in the west. I’ve been in the “workers paradise” GDR and there was a constant smell of brown coal and two stroke exhaust fumes in the air. The Elbe River had black water and also smelled terrible. Socialism is the best way to ruin everything, including our planet!
 
Anyhow, you still haven’t explained why socialist nuclear power plants have been saver than their capitalist counterpart.
I can't recall writing that. Ever.
 
You implied it, because you blamed “capitalism” for the Fukushima accident
 
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