The future that twentieth-century engineers dreamed of is dying???

[publiusr]

…and TV peaked when you were about 13 and popular music peaked the year you were 16

Which was around the time THRILLER came out in my life so--point proven.

And with the purpling of street lamps and loud bass---those thumps aren't noticable now--thanks hip-hop!

 

[lostcosmonauts]

but much less filled with degeneracy at all levels.

Who, exactly, are you calling degenerates here?

 

[Dilandu]

There's nothing glamorous about flying anymore: it's just having a hard time. On a 180-passenger plane, the space is not equivalent to 180 bags in carry-on baggage compartments, but about 85, forcing companies to label and place the rest in the hold. On the other hand, the seats are getting smaller and the passengers are getting bigger. In the last ten years, the distance between seats has decreased by four centimeters (from 47 to 43 cm). And how do airlines maximize profits? They put up more seats, they don't give food, they have few employees at the airport and few planes on standby. Flying is an essential mode of transport but it has ceased to be fun, comfortable or easily accessible, to become a nightmare.

The problem here is over-optimization. The standard design of air liner essentially reached the point of diminishing return in terms of improvement. But it's so STANDARD, that switching on something more advanced - like flying wing designs, for example! - would require enormous investments. To modernize airfields so they could accomodate and maintain radically new designs of airliners, to retrain pilots and ground crews, to wrestle through all the numerous safety requirements that would be very alert toward anything radically new... Basically it's too much risks for profits not guaranteed.

The other side of the problem is, that aircraft manufacturers and airlines are different entities. As a result, aircraft manufacturers have little motivation to invest in radical new designs - they aren't sure that airlines would be interested. And airlines aren't motivated to pay large sums to manufacturers for developing a new designs - which may not be sucsessfull, after all. So both sides played safe.

It's a bit of blind spot of capitalism, if I may use such term.

 

[Dilandu]

The return to launching capsules on top of V2 style rockets is a sad thing for those of us who assumed we would fly on the Pan Am space clipper to a wheel in space in 2001.

Well, the winged space planes were a technological dead end; space is NOT the atmosphere, the requirements of spaceflight and atmospheric flight are too different, and the idea of "we MUST try to build a space plane because it's obviously the future" led only to technological stagnation, while enormous resources were spend on trying to invent better Shuttle (essential equivalent of trying to invent better square wheel)

 

[timmymagic]

"Walking Freight" I believe is the Airline jargon for those who travel with them.

SLC....Self Loading Cargo is the name...

Was flying ever really glamorous?
Sitting in a draughty, noisy, vibrating Handley Page H.P.42, praying there wasn't fog en route so the pilot wouldn't crash into something, no seatbelt so any pitching could send you flying (and you get lukewarm soup in your lap) doesn't exactly sound like it was fun.

I reckon the 20 years from 707 introduction, through 747 with upper floor bar with spiral staircase.....757, 767, 737 and A300 were the beginning of the end...

In the UK the classic state vs private enterprise battle has become an Orwellian two legs bad four legs good argument.
Sadly the Pandemic and other areas of life have shown that management is poor both in the public and private sectors.

I'd disagree with this. In the UK the Pandemic showed that we could respond rapidly, and effectively. I was involved with some aspects of this, both public and private and once the politicians got out of the way (and some ineffective managers were cleared out) things moved at an incredibly rapid pace. For once there was no toleration of poor performance or people slowing processes down, they were either moved, or sensibly understood the way the wind was blowing and made themselves scarce...regrettably they came back afterwards...

 

[Orionblamblam]

Who, exactly, are you calling degenerates here?

Passengers fighting on the planes, fighting in the terminals, taking dumps in the aisles. More broadly people rioting and looting and shoplifting en masse turning whole cities into empty ghost towns. The politicians who pass rules and laws that don't just permit this nonsense but support it, actively working to tear down functional society. In short those who look at the norms of a healthy society and go "nah."

 

[lostcosmonauts]

More broadly people rioting and looting and shoplifting en masse turning whole cities into empty ghost towns. The politicians who pass rules and laws that don't just permit this nonsense but support it

Should I read that to allude to protests against Police killings and efforts to address endemic racism in the authorities?

 

[Dilandu]

Should I read that to allude to protests against Police killings and efforts to address endemic racism in the authorities?

Protests against police brutality is one thing - riots, when the police brutality (even perfectly real) is only an excuse to cause chaos and endanger lives and property of completely innocent peoples, are quite other.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Passengers fighting on the planes, fighting in the terminals, taking dumps in the aisles. More broadly people rioting and looting and shoplifting en masse turning whole cities into empty ghost towns. The politicians who pass rules and laws that don't just permit this nonsense but support it, actively working to tear down functional society. In short those who look at the norms of a healthy society and go "nah."

In reality, many of these people are no longer considered indispensable by politicians: they can no longer be used in agriculture, factories, or war... They are still used to vote in increasingly dubious electoral systems, but keeping them fed, clothed, entertained and healthy is already too expensive in exchange for the meager profits they produce, sitting in front of their computers. It's only a matter of time before they're no longer completely necessary, and then... Someone will decide it's time to close this discussion.

 

[lostcosmonauts]

If it weren’t for a riotous and armed response to inequality the US would still be a British crown colony

 

[Justo Miranda]

If it weren’t for a riotous and armed response to inequality the US would still be a British crown colony

The same could be said of Ukraine, Algeria, Vietnam and all the South American countries... But it doesn't seem that freedom from taxation has created much prosperity in them. In my opinion, the difference is that the United States received a large number of emigrants of great professional and intellectual quality who were fleeing the stupid European policies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Sikorsky

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Asimov

 

[lostcosmonauts]

The same could be said of Ukraine, Algeria, Vietnam and all the South American countries... But it doesn't seem that freedom from taxation has created much prosperity in them. In my opinion, the difference is that the United States received a large number of emigrants of great professional and intellectual quality who were fleeing the stupid European policies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Sikorsky

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Asimov

All the genocide and slavery probably helped

In reality, many of these people are no longer considered indispensable by politicians: they can no longer be used in agriculture, factories, or war...

apparently you’re a fan

 

[Orionblamblam]

Should I read that to allude to protests against Police killings and efforts to address endemic racism in the authorities?

If you like. Riots based on lies (remember the "hands up don't shoot" hoax that led to untold carnage?), and mass lootings of uninvolved businesses are not some heroic endeavor. They are the actions of morons and villains, and should be treated as such.

An unability, or, worse, unwillingness to call out criminality and generally scummy behavior leads to everything getting worse. People looting, burning, killing, blocking roads, fighting on airplanes, tolerating mass homelessness and public drug use.... this is all *bad.* If you cannot recognize it *and* call it out, you're in for very rough times.

If you look at the incredible future envisioned in the not too distant past - within living memory - and look at the decrepit reality of the present and wonder why... wonder no further. Acceptance, tolerance, promotion of behavior that damages society will keep you from that shining city on a hill... or that glorious habitat in space, or thriving colony on Mars. A society that revels in WAP and burning down Uncle Hugos is hardly likely to be one that colonizes Alpha Centauri.

 

[lostcosmonauts]

If we can’t maintain a liveable Earth there is no way we’ll manage to create a self-sustaining habitat in orbit or anywhere else

mass homelessness and public drug use.... this is all *bad.*

It is almost like huge inequality, lack of healthcare and dismantling society for the benefit of a few billionaires isn’t working

 

[Orionblamblam]

It is almost like huge inequality, lack of healthcare and dismantling society for the benefit of a few billionaires isn’t working

None of which is relevant to the discussion of societal decay and the failure to achieve. "Huge inequality" is nonsense, healthcare is abundant, and society isn't being dismantled for a few billionaires; it's being dismantled by millions of low IQ scumbags for a free TV.

 

[Dilandu]

If we can’t maintain a liveable Earth there is no way we’ll manage to create a self-sustaining habitat in orbit or anywhere else

...And how exactly this thesis is connected with the rest of this discussion?

 

[lostcosmonauts]

...And how exactly this thesis is connected with the rest of this discussion?

It was in connection to Mr Blam’s concern about the lack of colonies on Mars or Alpha Centauri

 

[Dilandu]

It was in connection to Mr Blam’s concern about the lack of colonies on Mars or Alpha Centauri

Not sure how. Spreading out is the only way to ensure our civilization long-term survival. We knew, that space is dangerous. We know now, that interstellar asteroids exist - giant rocks, that could appear from any direction, without any warning. We know about galactic gamma bursts - void-piercing death rays of unimaginable scale. We know about charged particles with literally enormous energy. Only by establishing humanity as interplanetary, then interstellar civilization, we could ensure that no single disaster would be able to wipe us out.

 

[lostcosmonauts]

Not sure how. Spreading out is the only way to ensure our civilization long-term survival. We knew, that space is dangerous. We know now, that interstellar asteroids exist - giant rocks, that could appear from any direction, without any warning. We know about galactic gamma bursts - void-piercing death rays of unimaginable scale. We know about charged particles with literally enormous energy. Only by establishing humanity as interplanetary, then interstellar civilization, we could ensure that no single disaster would be able to wipe us out.

How = if the 10thousand year experiment in domesticating humans fails on a biosphere the size of Earth then it’ll go sour in nothing flat in a permanent space habitat many millions of times smaller

 

[Dilandu]

How = if the 10thousand year experiment in domesticating humans fails on a biosphere the size of Earth then it’ll go sour in nothing flat in a permanent space habitat many millions of times smaller

Redundancy.

 

[Byeman]

https://defencesecurityasia.com/en/osprey-ground-japan-accident/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_4590

https://www.nasa.gov/history/10-years-ago-sts-135-the-space-shuttles-grand-finale/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_17

https://www.deccanherald.com/world/explained-why-did-nasa-cancel-the-moon-rocket-launch-1140643.html

https://en.as.com/latest_news/why-did-nasa-cancel-the-artemis-i-mission-for-the-second-time-n/

Those are all government managed or engineered projects and they were unsustainable. That is the common thread and not engineers' dreams dying.

 

[Byeman]

1. The return to launching capsules on top of V2 style rockets is a sad thing for those of us who assumed we would fly on the Pan Am space clipper to a wheel in space in 2001.
2. Sadly Space has proven to be an even more hostile environment than we thought and its value is mainly in various satellites which have turned Earth orbit into a garbage dump.

1. You assumed. That is the problem.
2. It is far from a garbage dump.

 

[uk 75]

Byeman. Both fair points. Would you care to give some positives that an old b like me missed.

 

[Orionblamblam]

How = if the 10thousand year experiment in domesticating humans fails on a biosphere the size of Earth then it’ll go sour in nothing flat in a permanent space habitat many millions of times smaller

It'll be many billions of times *bigger.* In the long run the loss of a million colonies and a trillion lives would be an insignificant price compared to populating the galaxy.

 

[Arjen]

We have to make it to the long run first. With current technology, we'll be lucky to establish some very vulnerable off-Earth habitats for a few hundred unlucky sods. At astronomical cost. Invest in the planet we have. Please.

 

[GTX]

"Idiocracy" wasn't supposed to be a documentary, but here we are.

Funnilly enough/sadly we agree here...though I suspect the causes we apply are different.

*Rejection* of capitalism is a bigger problem.

The issue is unregulated capitalism that exploits.

Destruction of the family and social norms in favor of stagnation is more a function of... well, *not* capitalism.

 

[Orionblamblam]

. At astronomical cost. Invest in the planet we have. Please.

Space colonization will require numerous technological advances... nuclear power, solar power, recycling, closed loop life support systems, compact and efficient food production, medical treatments and preventative, materials improvements, etc. Which of these *wouldn't * be fabulously useful here on earth?????

 

[GTX]

Seems like a few in this thread have consumed some Member Berries...sigh.

 

[Orionblamblam]

The issue is unregulated capitalism that exploits.

A truly free market? Man, I wish we had one of *those.*

"Unregulated capitalism." Don't threaten me with a good time.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Seems like a few in this thread have consumed some Member Berries

Care to elaborate? I see some people reaching back into the mists for some old school "spend money on earth not in space" nonsense popular with Soviet backed luddites decades ago.

 

[Arjen]

Fukushima rings a bell? Capitalism unchained.

 

[Dilandu]

We have to make it to the long run first. With current technology, we'll be lucky to establish some very vulnerable off-Earth habitats for a few hundred unlucky sods. At astronomical cost. Invest in the planet we have. Please.

We have more than enough resources to do both. Investing into Earth would not save us from just one really unfortunate interstellar rock.

 

[Arjen]

We're in the middle of a big extinction event, destroying the ecosystems we are a part of. Setting up a viable ecosystem off-Earth? Not much of a record for humanity to be succesfull at that.

 

[riggerrob]

In the UK the classic state vs private enterprise battle has become an Orwellian two legs bad four legs good argument.
Sadly the Pandemic and other areas of life have shown that management is poor both in the public and private sectors.
Noone seems to know how to fix this, least of all the ever growing number of managers.
The BBC is not controled by the State any more than Sky or the Murdoch Press. It does, however, suffer from the British vice of recruiting people who look and think like those already there. In the BBC's case this has come to be a slightly left of centre London mentality.

The BBC is still more professional and closer to neutral than most other media networks …. even closer to neutral than CBC. The CBC sort of reflects the current Liberal gov’t (slightly left of center) with its boring Prime Minister Trudeau Junior. Justin Trudeau must have the world’s most boring speech-writer!
In comparison, up until a couple of months ago, I believed that Al Jazeera was a professional news network based upon the BBC model. Sadly, ASL Jazeera has published too much biased, pro-Palestinian propaganda that I have lost respect for Al Jazeera.

 

[GTX]

These sorts of discussions/arguments are boring and don't serve any purpose other than allowing people to rant and generate ill will.

I think people need to remember that the primary purpose of the forum is to discuss unbuilt projects, military and aerospace technology in various forms. Moreover we should be avoiding posts on social/political commentary.

And yes, I know that I unfortunately contributed to this...which I regret.

 

[Dilandu]

We're in the middle of a big extinction event, destroying the ecosystems we are a part of. Setting up a viable ecosystem off-Earth? Not much of a record for humanity to be succesfull at that.

On the contrary, if we figure out how to create a simplified, artificial ecosystem, it would bring us MUCH closer to understanding how to regulate the complex Earth one.

 

[Dilandu]

nonsense popular with Soviet backed luddites decades ago.

Please stop blaming USSR for every American stupidity. USSR always supported space exploration (of course not without jabbing USA a bit for "warmongering into space militarization")

 

[riggerrob]

Passengers fighting on the planes, fighting in the terminals, taking dumps in the aisles. More broadly people rioting and looting and shoplifting en masse turning whole cities into empty ghost towns. The politicians who pass rules and laws that don't just permit this nonsense but support it, actively working to tear down functional society. In short those who look at the norms of a healthy society and go "nah."

As efficiencies lowered the price of air travel, they attracted a lower class of passengers. These lower class passengers did not fear loss of status, employment, etc. if they acted like drunken idiots onboard airliners. They were just conforming to cultural norms in their home neighborhoods.

This change in attitude reflects my ex-wife who reveled at the lowering prices of airline tickets, but equally loudly bemoaned reduced service. She never saw the link between reduced prices and reduced services.
Now you know why she is my ex-wife.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Fukushima rings a bell? Capitalism unchained.

ERRRRR. That was capitalism *chained.* The reactor was *old* and the operators had wanted to replace it for years, but the regulations were so burdensome that they basically weren't allowed to.

 

[riggerrob]

If you like. Riots based on lies (remember the "hands up don't shoot" hoax that led to untold carnage?), and mass lootings of uninvolved businesses are not some heroic endeavor. ….

This reminds me of the Rodney King inspired riots that decimated parts of Los Angeles during the spring of 1992. I moved to Southern California at the end of 1992 and heard from a few witnesses.
One was a police detective who explained that traditionally, California cops beat petty criminals who run from them. No one in their right one runs during the heat of a SoCal summer. Rodney King should have been familiar with this policy since he had previously been arrested for some petty crimes.
Secondly, the riots were far more racist and criminal than political protest. Black residents of black neighborhoods (e.g. Compton) looted grocery stores owned by Korean immigrants because they were jealous of Koreans’ commercial success. Blacks also accused Koreans of unfairly profiting while running mom-and-pop stores in poor neighborhoods. See the video “Koreans on the rooftops.”
I also used to skydive with a couple of white men who worked at a gun store on the edge of Compton. They related tales of police asking for rifles to repel looters.
Finally, watching videos of other rioters (e.g. antifa) leads me to conclude that politics are “priority-last” on the minds of many looters. Rather, most are just “angry young men”’who enjoy a good riot, romping and stomping and looting and burning ….