The F-35 No Holds Barred topic

It should be highlighted that the initial acquisition cost is only about the 22% of the total operating cost. So whether the fly-away price ends up being $85 million, or $150 million, the long-term impact on the defence budget will be quite small.
 
AdamF said:
It should be highlighted that the initial acquisition cost is only about the 22% of the total operating cost. So whether the fly-away price ends up being $85 million, or $150 million, the long-term impact on the defence budget will be quite small.

One millions here, one million there...pretty soon you're starting to talk about real money.
Ha ha, sucks to be the Canadian taxpayer!
Oh wait, I pay taxes in Italy AND in the United States. I am suddenly not amused :mad:
 
AeroFranz said:
AdamF said:
It should be highlighted that the initial acquisition cost is only about the 22% of the total operating cost. So whether the fly-away price ends up being $85 million, or $150 million, the long-term impact on the defence budget will be quite small.

One millions here, one million there...pretty soon you're starting to talk about real money.
Ha ha, sucks to be the Canadian taxpayer!
Oh wait, I pay taxes in Italy AND in the United States. I am suddenly not amused :mad:

Wait until the tax hike. :mad:
 
"Brian Stewart: Super-costly F-35s, a global wrecking ball"
By Brian Stewart, CBC News
Posted: Dec 13, 2012 4:59 AM ET

Source:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/12/f-vp-stewart-f35-jets.html

There is a stark lesson in the escalating cost nightmare of the F-35 fighter jets that holds more ominous implications for Washington than even for Canada's Harper government.

Quite simply, it is that allied Western nations are finding the once-vaunted high-tech American weaponry no longer politically affordable. Not in large numbers.

Canada's grief over its share of the F-35 price tag — now estimated to be almost $46 billion over 42 years — has been shared by a half-dozen countries, including Britain, Australia, Italy and the Netherlands, which have been forced to either cut back on their orders or contemplate outright cancellation.

This political fallout is upending the whole global arms bazaar. Around the world, America's big-ticket defence items are being increasingly challenged by cheaper products from Europe and now Asia as well.

More developing countries are shunning extravagant U.S. weaponry for the cheaper but quite-good-enough products of Russia, China, India, and South Korea.

India itself recently rejected a large F-35 purchase in favour of buying more Russian and, possibly, French fighters for its fleet.

This trend could have strategic consequences — and not only for U.S. military influence abroad and its important high-tech manufacturing base.

But if America's allies are forced to swallow hard and, in the process, take on fewer of the super-costly F-35 joint strike fighters, they could well end up with smaller air capabilities over the next 20-30 years than they had been planning on.

The whole F-35 experience has produced a classic negative cycle in which unanticipated glitches cause delays that drive up prices, which, in turn, causes still more wavering by potential buyers, leading to more delays, still higher costs, and so on, with no end in sight.
End of the gravy train

For America's military-industrial complex, as it is sometimes called, it now seems that the age of illusion is coming to an end.

"We have been on a gravy train of military capability over the past 60 years. And we are seeing signs of its death," Gen. Steven Kwast, the director of the U.S. Air Force Defence Review warned recently.
U.S. Defence Secretary Leon Panetta is endorsing the Marine version of the F-35. It is the one with the fewer wrinkles.U.S. Defence Secretary Leon Panetta is endorsing the Marine version of the F-35. It is the one with the fewer wrinkles. (Reuters)

"We all grew up in a Cold War paradigm of outspending, out-producing an adversary," Kwast said, adding that, because of all this overspending, "if we aren't careful we can find ourselves where we can't afford the basics."

He is just one of many critical voices in the U.S. currently denouncing a military and political mindset that encouraged near-perfection in high-tech weapons, which consistently lead to ruinous cost overruns.

It is a problem that goes well beyond the F-35s.

American insistence on super-smart combat designs has pushed the price tag of one destroyer to $1.2 billion and a new submarine to twice that. Even Congress has started to gag at such numbers.

Ironically, it was Washington's concern over rising foreign competition that led to the F-35 woes.

The Pentagon recklessly raced the Lockheed Martin F-35 into early production in 2007, even before it was flight tested, in an attempt to corner the market for the company's new stealth technology.

As aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia told the New York Times, "there was this big desire to kill the competition."
'Acquisition malpractice'

Bypassing flight tests before production was extraordinarily risky and some officials inside the Pentagon warned it would end badly. But apparently higher-ups insisted that any kinks would be worked out in computer simulation.

The F-35 was originally to have been a relatively affordable mix of three different plane types. But it turned out to be a far more complex hybrid than imagined.

Start-up costs have already consumed $65 billion, and the whole mess was denounced as "acquisition malpractice" by the Pentagon's new procurement chief, Frank Kendall, earlier this year.

The F-35s are now the most expensive weapons program in history, so over the top, in fact, that the Pentagon's original hope to produce some 2,400 of these fighters, spread across nine nations, is fading fast.

The estimated unit price per plane has doubled from $69 million to $167 million today and some industry experts warn that only half that projected production run may be achievable — which will mean even higher unit prices for foreign buyers like Canada (if we go ahead with the purchase).
Strategic consequences

Cutting back on production is where the self-inflicted pricing woes of U.S. military manufacturers have true strategic consequences.

On paper, the U.S. still racks up the most foreign "purchase agreements" every year, but what really matters are actual "deliveries." And here the U.S. has slid from a near monopoly in the 1990s to just a little over 30 per cent of the total today.

That additional competition may not be a bad thing, you say. But, traditionally, big arms sales served U.S. strategic interest as they helped extend American influence all over the globe through these arms pacts.

Today, such clout may be exerted by the new competitors waving cheaper long-term deals.

America's problems here put Ottawa in a most uncomfortable position as it finds itself wrestling with a fighter option it can't afford with an aerospace giant in decline and likely unable to extend as many economic side benefits as were initially promised.

A further wrinkle is that a number of countries are concluding that the F-35 is not only too expensive, but far more sophisticated than is required in today's global environment.

In Canada's case, cabinet has yet to make a convincing argument that buying 65 hybrid stealth fighter-bombers makes more strategic sense than, say, buying a mixed fleet, or even a smaller fleet with cheaper alternatives.

It now says it will "reset" the whole decision. But given the enormous stakes involved, we can expect immense pressure from the U.S., our closest ally, to not reject this plane before the eyes of the world.

But unless a solution is found to these runaway F-35 costs, this particular dank swamp will only grow more terrifying for ministers to contemplate with each passing month.
 
Triton said:
"Brian Stewart: Super-costly F-35s, a global wrecking ball"
By Brian Stewart, CBC News
Posted: Dec 13, 2012 4:59 AM ET

Source:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/12/f-vp-stewart-f35-jets.html

I don't even have the time to go through all of that line by line, but it is a wonderful bevy of half truths, lack of context and some outright falsehoods. So pretty much par for the course for a Canadian Journalist regarding the F-35. :p I'm glad he didn't mention japan joining in, Singapore investing, and of course the USAF reaffirming their commitment. Got the price wrong too of course
 
A question that they don't seem to be asking in the Canadian press is how a cancellation of the 65 F-35 jets will affect Canada's participation in future NATO-led missions. The articles seem to only consider an aircraft to defend the territorial integrity of Canada.

Will the other fighter alternatives that Canada is considering have a service life of 42 years? I also thought that low observability/fifth generation was a force multiplier over fourth generation or fourth plus generation fighters.
 
TaiidanTomcat said:
I don't even have the time to go through all of that line by line, but it is a wonderful bevy of half truths, lack of context and some outright falsehoods. So pretty much par for the course for a Canadian Journalist regarding the F-35. :p I'm glad he didn't mention japan joining in, Singapore investing, and of course the USAF reaffirming their commitment. Got the price wrong too of course

Based on the articles I have read, it seems like Canadians are talking themselves out of an air force.
 
Triton said:
TaiidanTomcat said:
I don't even have the time to go through all of that line by line, but it is a wonderful bevy of half truths, lack of context and some outright falsehoods. So pretty much par for the course for a Canadian Journalist regarding the F-35. :p I'm glad he didn't mention japan joining in, Singapore investing, and of course the USAF reaffirming their commitment. Got the price wrong too of course

Based on the articles I have read, it seems like Canadians are talking themselves out of an air force.

Boy, you said it! :D
 
Triton said:
A question that they don't seem to be asking in the Canadian press is how a cancellation of the 65 F-35 jets will affect Canada's participation in future NATO-led missions. The articles seem to only consider an aircraft to defend the territorial integrity of Canada.

The NATO doesn't have an enemy that requires the F-35 to battle. It's like asking if Germany, France, and Sweden would sit out of future NATO battles because they don't operate F-35s.

Will the other fighter alternatives that Canada is considering have a service life of 42 years?
The Super Hornet.

I also thought that low observability/fifth generation was a force multiplier over fourth generation or fourth plus generation fighters.
You can buy twice to three times as many Super Hornets as you can with the F-35. Now that's the real force multiplier.
 
SlowMan said:
You can buy twice to three times as many Super Hornets as you can with the F-35. Now that's the real force multiplier.
I will be so glad when Canada does do a complete apples-2-apples, cradle-to-grave cost comparison and this argument is finally gets laid to rest.
 
SlowMan said:
You can buy twice to three times as many Super Hornets as you can with the F-35. Now that's the real force multiplier.

the KPMG report puts the F-35 at 88 million. The F-18E/F in 2012 is 66.9 million. :eek:

You also need additional pilots, aerial refuelers, and maintainers etc plus all the other logisitics for 42 years. Now that's the real cost multiplier.
 
Don't forget the cost to train, house, feed, medicate, and retire the guy in the back seat of that F/A-18F, Rafale, or Eurofighter. :)
 
Read the bold sentences. What in the wild blue wonder is the Boeing sales rep talking about?

F-35 competitors dust off sales pitch

5:46 pm, December 13th, 2012 - JESSICA MURPHY | QMI AGENCY

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/politics/archives/2012/12/20121213-174641.html

OTTAWA - With billions of dollars at stake, the race is on in the aerospace industry to convince the feds there's more than one option to replace Canada's aging fleet of CF-18s.

Aerospace giant Boeing said Thursday it welcomed the news Ottawa had hit the reset button on the F-35 fighter jet procurement and would conduct a "full options analysis" into other planes on the market.

"We're certainly looking forward to receiving a request for information," said Mary Ann Brett, spokeswoman for the company's defence, space and security division.

She said the analysis "opens the door" for Boeing to sell the Royal Canadian Air Force and the new independent expert panel on the merits of their F-18s.

"There's a misconception the Super Hornet is not stealthy and that's all it is - a misconception," she said, urging the feds to go full throttle and consider a "transparent competitive process."

"You can only get into that in classified discussions. And until there is a more formal process for this, those discussions cannot take place."


France's Dassault Aviation, which makes the Rafale combat aircraft, called the news "interesting" but like Boeing had yet to receive requests for specs from the government.

Eurofighter's Typhoon and Saab's Gripen E are two other fighter jets considered to be in the running.

Lockheed Martin, meanwhile, is putting a brave face on the news Ottawa is window shopping other jets.

"We feel the F-35 is the best option from our point of view but we fully support where Canada is going now and the decisions they are facing," a spokesman said.

The Conservative government announced the recalibration after Wednesday's KPMG report pegged the lifespan costs of buying, flying and maintaining the F-35s at $46 billion over 42 years.

The report puts the price tag for purchasing the jets at $8.4 billion - in line with the government capped budget of $9 billion.

Opposition parties are calling on the government not just to reset the procurement, but to hit the eject button and open it up to a fully transparent competitive bidding process.

Among the criteria for the replacement aircraft will be cost, surveillance capability, ability to operatic in the North, to avoid ground offences. and communicate with other air and ground forces.

A timeline for the analysis isn't yet clear but is expected to take a few months.
 
The Super Hornet has what's called tactically significant stealth. That is over the frontal arc it reduces radar detection range to about half that of a typical 4th generation fighter. This enables it to get within AMRAAM launch range without counter detection by typical threat aircraft radars.
 
Shrug... I don't believe that anyone can accurately predict the NATO military interventions in the next 42 years, who the enemy will be, or how he will be equipped. We know that China intends to export the J-31, Russia may sell the T-50 to other nations in addition to India, there is the Korean/Indonesian K-FX program, Turkey's TFX, and we can presume that surface-to-air missile systems will improve during the next 42 years.
 
Broncazonk said:
"There's a misconception the Super Hornet is not stealthy and that's all it is - a misconception," she said, urging the feds to go full throttle and consider a "transparent competitive process."

"You can only get into that in classified discussions. And until there is a more formal process for this, those discussions cannot take place."

Christopher Chadwick told a group of reporters at Boeing's defense headquarters here. "Yes, the F-35 has all-aspect stealth, but that is used in a relatively small part of the combat envelope."

This Boeing guy says you won't need it.

http://defense.aol.com/2012/09/13/boeing-knocks-f-35s-delays-and-delays/

YMMV?


Triton said:
Shrug... I don't believe that anyone can accurately predict the NATO military interventions in the next 42 years, who the enemy will be, or how he will be equipped. We know that China intends to export the J-31, Russia may sell the T-50 to other nations in addition to India, there is the Korean/Indonesian K-FX program, Turkey's TFX, and we can presume that surface-to-air missile systems will improve during the next 42 years.

There is nothing more odd to me than the people who shout that everyone is going broke and can't spend on defense, then in the next breath say "but everything is fine and the world will be the same for 4 decades. " (Bonus points if they mention China beating us senseless, yet insist on no tangible change) No one knows the future, and if they did they shouldn't be here on Secret Projects, they should be trading stocks and making big bets based on their ability to see years ahead.

The NIC report, looking ahead to 2030, foresees the United States and Europe losing their status as the world's economic powers to China and India. It also warned of the impact of aging populations and the growing competition for finite natural resources, such as water and energy. The council's Strategic Foresight Initiative presented an alternative report that had a somewhat more positive view of America's position in the future, while noting most of the same problems cited by the NIC.

http://defense.aol.com/2012/12/10/chuck-hagel-touted-as-next-secdef-argues-for-soft-power-allie/?icid=mostPopular4

Yeah everything's going to be fine, why do we even need a military?
 
KPMG was looking at a 30-year service life. The 42 years is the complete life-cycle of the NGFC program, which started some years ago, until the last retirement.

What appears to have watered people's eyes in Canada is not just the scary-headline total but the question of how the annual rate of spending can be managed within the rest of the defense budget.

Boeing's comments on stealth mean exactly what they say. The company was very clear in the 1990s about how LO was applied to the basic design and has unveiled things that are clearly LO improvements, and, yes, the details are classified - that was in part where the Canucks came unstuck, by declaring outright that the JSF was the only jet that could meet their RCS spec, when they clearly had not asked Boeing (or anyone else for that matter) whether they could meet it too.

The status quo today is mutual lack of knowledge, since the Canadians don't know the RCS of the SH (I am not aware of any Canadian LO expertise to speak of) and Boeing doesn't know what the spec is, but I'm sure that won't stop the usual suspects from declaring victory for the JSF.
 
LowObservable said:
that was in part where the Canucks came unstuck, by declaring outright that the JSF was the only jet that could meet their RCS spec, when they clearly had not asked Boeing (or anyone else for that matter) whether they could meet it too.


The thing is, RCAF requirement was written to mean "as good LO as the F-35". So there was little point in asking Boeing about the Super Hornet.
 
Personally, I think a number of the current F-35 customers don't really need it. If one only needs a fighter for basic air-sovereignty and the odd token deployment, then the Gripen or FA-50 would seem to be fine. Of course, no one likes being told to go play in the kiddie pool, which is one of the reasons why the F-20 never found customers (yes, I'm aware of the other issues).
 
AdamF said:
The thing is, RCAF requirement was written to mean "as good LO as the F-35". So there was little point in asking Boeing about the Super Hornet.
That was before the arrival of the Silent Hornet.

Triton said:
Will Boeing try to sell the F-18 Super Hornet International to Canada?
Likely, because the Silent Hornet's sales to the US Navy depends on it.

http://www.janes.com/events/exhibitions/farnborough-2012/news/july-09/US-Navy-considers-Super-Hornet.aspx

US Navy considers Super Hornet enhancements, but no decision expected soon
By: Gareth Jennings
Published: 09 Jul 2012
The US Navy (USN) is in "co-operative discussions" with Boeing on retrofitting enhancements to its F/A-18E/F Super Hornet combat aircraft, a navy official said at the Farnborough Airshow 2012.

Captain (USN) Frank 'Spanky' Morley, Program Manager for the F/A-18E/F and EA-18G (PMA-265), said that the navy was looking at the viability of fitting several key enhancements offered by Boeing to international customers, but that no firm decisions had been made.

"While we are in co-operative discussions, the US Navy is not committed yet," he said, adding that the navy would wait on Boeing's efforts to sign up an international customer for these upgrades before deciding whether to follow suit.
 
AdamF said:
The thing is, RCAF requirement was written to mean "as good LO as the F-35". So there was little point in asking Boeing about the Super Hornet.

That assumes there is a large difference between the signature of the Super Hornet and the F-35. The differences may not be large, or relevant to a given customer.
 
That was before the arrival of the Silent Hornet.

Let me guess all the additions don't add at all to the price of the hornet? ::)

It sure is funny to hear Boeing go on and on about how the F-35 is overkill, and then in the next breath do their best to imitate it. It's almost like their actions don't match up with their words.
 
AeroFranz said:
TaiidanTomcat said:
It's almost like their actions don't match up with their words.


It's called "marketing" (disgusted tone of voice)

I also think its telling that regarding the Silent Hornet the USN says "We would like to wait until you sell it to someone else first... then maybe"

It's just me, others may interpret it a different way-- But I think it was the Navy's way of saying "no thanks" without actually saying it. Like when my parents would promise me something grand with a condition both of us knew I would never meet. "do all of your chores for a year and be nice to your sister, then we will talk about new football boots"
 
TaiidanTomcat said:
AeroFranz said:
TaiidanTomcat said:
It's almost like their actions don't match up with their words.
It's called "marketing" (disgusted tone of voice)
I also think its telling that regarding the Silent Hornet the USN says "We would like to wait until you sell it to someone else first... then maybe"

It's just me, others may interpret it a different way-- But I think it was the Navy's way of saying "no thanks" without actually saying it. Like when my parents would promise me something grand with a condition both of us knew I would never meet. "do all of your chores for a year and be nice to your sister, then we will talk about new football boots"
I highly doubt the USN will spring for the Silent Hornet even if someone else does. Its cost advantage would be marginal at best and it still wouldn't match the F-35C in capability or IOC timeline. The Canadians are another matter though... because a marginal cost advantage (the more dubious figures notwithstanding) is exactly what they need. The F-35 program isn't gonna collapse if Canada buys something else (I still think Gripen would suit them best).
 
Since no discussion is allowed on the other thread, I brought this over here for consideration (please don't be mad at me GTX).
GTX said:
Turkey Quietly Orders Navy F-35 (http://www.menewsline.com/article-1173,27679-Turkey-Quietly-Orders-Navy-F-35.aspx)
That seems unlikely; it's probably the F-35B. There wouldn't be much reason for them to want the F-35C unless they're planning on a CATOBAR ship. Perhaps a journalist got confused.
 
2IDSGT said:
Since no discussion is allowed on the other thread, I brought this over here for consideration (please don't be mad at me GTX).
GTX said:
Turkey Quietly Orders Navy F-35 (http://www.menewsline.com/article-1173,27679-Turkey-Quietly-Orders-Navy-F-35.aspx)
That seems unlikely; it's probably the F-35B. There wouldn't be much reason for them to want the F-35C unless they're planning on a CATOBAR ship. Perhaps a journalist got confused.

The C has the longest range of all variants.
 
I wonder if there'd be an advantage to buying the F-35C, but with the lighter weight landing gear of the F-35A and the tailhook removed?

Another thing to consider: the F-35C is fitted for probe-and-drogue IFR. Turkey does have tankers with both booms and drogue pods, so that's obviously not a factor here, but it could influence somebody's decision down the road if they rely solely on probe-and-drogue IFR.
 
TaiidanTomcat said:
2IDSGT said:
Since no discussion is allowed on the other thread, I brought this over here for consideration (please don't be mad at me GTX).
GTX said:
Turkey Quietly Orders Navy F-35 (http://www.menewsline.com/article-1173,27679-Turkey-Quietly-Orders-Navy-F-35.aspx)
That seems unlikely; it's probably the F-35B. There wouldn't be much reason for them to want the F-35C unless they're planning on a CATOBAR ship. Perhaps a journalist got confused.
The C has the longest range of all variants.
10nm extra combat radius (over the A model) isn't really worth the reduced performance and increased costs unless one is making arrested carrier landings. A nice breeze would make a bigger difference than that on a flight plan.

6a0133f3a4072c970b014e88c2ae70970d-550wi
 
TaiidanTomcat said:
I also think its telling that regarding the Silent Hornet the USN says "We would like to wait until you sell it to someone else first... then maybe"

It's just me, others may interpret it a different way-- But I think it was the Navy's way of saying "no thanks" without actually saying it. Like when my parents would promise me something grand with a condition both of us knew I would never meet. "do all of your chores for a year and be nice to your sister, then we will talk about new football boots"

That's not what the article's title says.

One more thing; the USN actually cut its F-35 requirements down to just 260. Whenever its F-35C numbers were cut, the US Navy bought more Super Hornets.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20110314/DEFFEAT04/103140313/U-S-Navy-Details-JSF-Buy

The Tactical Air memorandum of understanding ratifies the Navy Department's plan to buy 680 F-35 Lightning II joint strike fighters (JSF), and details the exact mix of variants and who will fly them. Of the total, 260 will be Navy F-35C carrier-based aircraft, 80 will be Marine F-35Cs, and 340 will be Marine F-35B short-takeoff-and-vertical-landing (STOVL) planes.
 
SlowMan said:
TaiidanTomcat said:
I also think its telling that regarding the Silent Hornet the USN says "We would like to wait until you sell it to someone else first... then maybe"

It's just me, others may interpret it a different way-- But I think it was the Navy's way of saying "no thanks" without actually saying it. Like when my parents would promise me something grand with a condition both of us knew I would never meet. "do all of your chores for a year and be nice to your sister, then we will talk about new football boots"

That's not what the article's title says.

One more thing; the USN actually cut its F-35 requirements down to just 260. Whenever its F-35C numbers were cut, the US Navy bought more Super Hornets.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20110314/DEFFEAT04/103140313/U-S-Navy-Details-JSF-Buy

The Tactical Air memorandum of understanding ratifies the Navy Department's plan to buy 680 F-35 Lightning II joint strike fighters (JSF), and details the exact mix of variants and who will fly them. Of the total, 260 will be Navy F-35C carrier-based aircraft, 80 will be Marine F-35Cs, and 340 will be Marine F-35B short-takeoff-and-vertical-landing (STOVL) planes.
Due to the fact that it will be short a carrier for the next few years, the USN has consolidated into just nine airwings since that article was published; meaning that current TACAIR assets will probably last long enough for the F-35C to arrive without the need for a panic-buy of more Shornets.
 
As colleagues down-under and others like our own Prof Tony Cordesman have been warning for years, American Air Power is now its own Peer Threat.

And now we see the average unit price of the LRIP 5 JSFs is currently more than that for the LRIP 4 aircraft.
::)
 
"The C has the longest range of all variants."

The as specified (JORD) combat radius for th F-35C carrier variant is less than the as demonstrated subsonic combat radius of the F-22A Raptor and far less than the CR of the Su-35S.
 
DD said:
"The C has the longest range of all variants."

The as specified (JORD) combat radius for th F-35C carrier variant is less than the as demonstrated subsonic combat radius of the F-22A Raptor and far less than the CR of the Su-35S.

You would almost think when I said the longest range of all variants, and when 2ID put up that F-35 chart, that we were talking about the F-35 and not the Su-35s or F-22A. the F-22 and Flanker not being F-35 variants.
 
T squared's comprehensive powers seem only surpassed by his good looks.

No doubt he also understands that while the F-22A and the Flankers are all quite comfortable loitering and operating above 55 kft, flying the SH and the F-35A JSF above 42 kft is akin to balancing on the end of a pool cue, performance and handling qualities wise.
:)
 

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