The effect of RAN 1964 Carrier Replacement Plan going Ahead?

[Pirate Pete]

So Sydney gets modernise to melbourne standards? So the RAN wpuld have 2 carriers in service. Why Sydney only operating to 62
I wonder how Vengeance staying as the training ship would affect Brazil, would they just get a different colossus class?
Plus 4th daring, last 2 rivers and all the Qs and tribals modernised?

Bearing in mind the time period here, Brazil MIGHT well have ended up with Leviathan which was incomplete and laid up at this time. Plus she was a Majestic Class so had a greater operating weight capacity than the original Colossus ships….

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

So Sydney gets modernise to Melbourne standards? So the RAN would have 2 carriers in service.

Although that wasn't in what I wrote, that was the plan until the middle 1950s.

Therefore, instead of what I wrote before Sydney sails to the UK in 1955 where her crew transfers to Melbourne and she goes to a RN Dockyard or commercial shipbuilder to be upgraded to the same standard as Melbourne or even Karel Doorman and Minas Gerais. The refit takes 2 or 3 years so she returns to Australia in 1957 or 1958.

In which case Vengeance continues to serve as an operational aircraft carrier until relieved by Sydney in 1957 or 1958. And now I think Hobart's conversion to a training ship would be abandoned regardless and Australia would continue to serve as the training ship until relieved by Vengeance as above.

Why Sydney only operating to 62.

Because that's when Sydney was recommissioned as a fast transport/training ship IOTL and it's also when

I wonder how Vengeance staying as the training ship would affect Brazil, would they just get a different Colossus class?

@Rule of cool's suggestion is the most likely. Also Hercules hadn't been bought by India so it's possible that Australian purchases her to be completed to the same standard as Melbourne and Sydney replaces Vengeance as the training ship when Hercules commissions.

Plus 4th daring, last 2 rivers and all the Qs and Tribals modernised?

No. They only get built/modernised if defence spending isn't cut as much after the Korean War and whether this is an on time and at cost timeline.

Furthermore, if they were built the RAN would not have enough people to man them and Sydney as an operational aircraft carrier and a cruiser or carrier (Australia, Hobart or Vengeance) as the training ship with 14,000 personnel.

 

[Caryina2642]

Although that wasn't in what I wrote, that was the plan until the middle 1950s.

Therefore, instead of what I wrote before Sydney sails to the UK in 1955 where her crew transfers to Melbourne and she goes to a RN Dockyard or commercial shipbuilder to be upgraded to the same standard as Melbourne or even Karel Doorman and Minas Gerais. The refit takes 2 or 3 years so she returns to Australia in 1957 or 1958

Well if Sydney is staying as an operational carrier she would have to get upgraded to Melbourne's standard otherwise there's no point. I dont think she would get rebuilt to a K D standard as by the time she exits the rebuild K D is entering her rebuild.

I think if the personal stay above 14,000 the plan rebuild of Sydney would go ahead.
Though you may see

• Sydney rebuilt to K D standard 1955 to 1958
• Melbourne rebuilt to K D standard 1958 to 1961
• Vengeance training ship 1955 to 1960ish, than training ship and fast troops transport from 1960ish onwards

Thats of course if the budget is there.

Also Hercules hadn't been bought by India so it's possible that Australian purchases her to be completed to the same standard as Melbourne and Sydney replaces Vengeance as the training ship when Hercules commissions.

Thats possibility which would be cheaper rebuilding Syndey or buying and rebuilding Hercules?

No. They only get built/modernised if defence spending isn't cut as much after the Korean War and whether this is an on time and at cost timeline.

Furthermore, if they were built the RAN would not have enough people to man them and Sydney as an operational aircraft carrier and a cruiser or carrier (Australia, Hobart or Vengeance) as the training ship with 14,000 personnel.

I would say in the scenario where Sydney gets rebuilt there wouldn't have been a big spending cut after Korea so they would get built/modernised. Plus if Sydney gets modernise than more escorts would be need
Hobart's crew plus trainees for Vengeance
Vengeance crew for Melbourne
Sydney's crew for Sydney
For escorts im not sure, though I would say in this scenario with an increased budget and personal already 14,000 plus ot wouldn't be to hard to increase personal numbers. Can always poach some RN personal

 

[Rule of cool]

FWIW if Sydney gets the major modernisation it will be the KD/MG standard because that was the standard by the mid 50s. Melbourne was the 3rd carrier in the world completed with an angled deck and steam cat, but carriers finished in the late 50s like Hermes and Victorious had a greater angle on the deck and bigger cats (for Vic).

 

[Caryina2642]

FWIW if Sydney gets the major modernisation it will be the KD/MG standard because that was the standard by the mid 50s. Melbourne was the 3rd carrier in the world completed with an angled deck and steam cat, but carriers finished in the late 50s like Hermes and Victorious had a greater angle on the deck and bigger cars (for Vic).

Sorry got my dates wrong for when K D went into refit

 

[Rule of cool]

Looking for something else I found the following 1965 Parliamentary statement by the Minister of the Navy:

"The first variation concerns the aircraft carrier H.M.A.S. “Melbourne” and the Fleet Air Arm. In the review of November 1964 an extensive half-life modernisation was approved for H.M.A.S. “Melbourne”, which was planned to begin in mid-1967 and take 18 months to two years to complete. The estimated cost was £9.6 million. As stated last year, it was always intended that commencement of this work would depend on the international situation existing at the time. The Government has now decided that it would be undesirable, in the present situation, to have “Melbourne” unavailable for operations for up to two years. Instead of laying the ship up for this period, it is intended to put her in for a slightly extended normal refit in 1967, which will be completed within six months. Essential modernisation work, including that necessary to operate the carrier’s replacement aircraft, will be undertaken at that time, at a cost of £2.5 million, and will proceed progressively thereafter during the ship’s normal annual refits."

£9.6m in 1965 is a lot of money, it'd go a long way toward a Karel Doorman style refit if undertaken a touch earlier. As it is the Melbourne had a 14 month refit Dec 67 - Feb 69 for S2s and A4s and an 8 month refit in 1971 to add a catapult bridle arrestor horn, which incorporated the water brake for the catapult shuttle, and this allowed a 9' extension to the catapult from 103' to 112'. FWIW the work on the catapult occurred at night when the stable temperatures allowed a perfect alignment.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

FWIW if Sydney gets the major modernisation it will be the KD/MG standard because that was the standard by the mid 50s. Melbourne was the 3rd carrier in the world completed with an angled deck and steam cat, but carriers finished in the late 50s like Hermes and Victorious had a greater angle on the deck and bigger cats (for Vic).

It should be, except Vikrant (ex-Hercules) was completed in 1961 to the same standard as Melbourne and Bonaventure.

 

[Caryina2642]

It should be, except Vikrant (ex-Hercules) was completed in 1961 to the same standard as Melbourne and Bonaventure.

According to your post in the Alternative RAAF Fleets Bonnie and Vikrant had a 7.5 degree deck compared to Melbourne's 5.5degrees

• Melbourne was completed in 1955 with a 5½ degree AFD.
• Bonaventure was completed in 1957 with a 7½ degree AFD.
• Vikrant was completed in 1961 with a 7½ degree AFD.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...5#:~:text=You're writing about,7½ degree AFDs. Post 188

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

According to your post in the Alternative RAAF Fleets Bonnie and Vikrant had a 7.5 degree deck compared to Melbourne's 5.5degrees

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/alternative-raaf-fleets.45365/page-5#:~:text=You're writing about,7½ degree AFDs. Post 188

And what did I write about the length of the catapults? Karel Doorman and Minas Gerais had 8.5 degree angled flight decks.

 

[Caryina2642]

And what did I write about the length of the catapults? Karel Doorman and Minas Gerais had 8.5 degree angled flight decks.

No you didnt mention the Catapults in the post

 

[Rule of cool]

From the look of photos the Vikrant's cat was 103'.