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Tempest - UK Future fighter programme

kaiserd

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I am not sure that the US want to share their next USAF platform with any foreign gov. I can only see that being plausible for the USN if for real both projects are split. So, to me there is still room for a joint project with the UK.
Fundamentally the UK are bringing almost nothing to the table that the Japanese actually want or need.
There are major diplomatic, industrial and technical drivers for the US to provide assistance to Japan and for Japan to turn to the US.
Cooperation with the US may or may not amount to something akin to JSF tier 1 partner level or something looser (some kind of technology sharing with a similar or different airframe).
There may also be some similar arrangement with the US available to the UK.

As I stated above Sweden may be a possible partner for the UK if goes is own path on this but hard to see that surviving the various issues that impact all major projects in this field.
Some kind of consolidation with the French/German/Spanish project (at least in terms of technology sharing etc.) would appear to be the only likely alternative to junior partnership with the US.
 
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Foo Fighter

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IMHO, better for the project to constrain the project to partners who can work together. Sweden and Japan have similar requirements which would simplify matters to the point twhere the technical spec can be set in stone more quickly which is a major advantage in any tech development like this. Adding in scheduled upgrades is far better than delaying entry to service due to constantly changing requirements/specs.
 
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kaiserd

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IMHO, better for the project to constrain the project to partners who can work together. Sweden and Japan have similar requirements which would simplify matters to the point twhere the technical spec can be set in stone more quickly which is a major advantage in any tech development like this. Adding in scheduled upgrades is far better than delaying entry to service due to constantly changing requirements/specs.
But Japan almost certainly won’t join, some kind of deal will be done with the US and and any interest they’re showing in Team Tempest is really only part of their negotiations with the US.
I’d suggest other contributors try to stay realistic with their expectations.
Bluntly if Team Tempest needs Japan or a partner of that size then it’s probably doomed to fail apart from as a gambit to try to demonstrate relevance as a potential junior partner to another US or European project.
 

Flyaway

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I am not sure that the US want to share their next USAF platform with any foreign gov. I can only see that being plausible for the USN if for real both projects are split. So, to me there is still room for a joint project with the UK.
Can the US government really afford to keep doing that. Oh well looks like they’ll be plenty of alternatives willing to rake in the foreign sales cash.
 

red admiral

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There's a bit of semantics here

Team Tempest is part of the FCAS TI and is a UK only technology development activity, that is also producing future concepts for the MOD Combat Air Acquisition Programme. The acquisition programme is what will actually produce a future fighter.

Sweden is looking at joining the acquisition programme for a future fighter. The UK has its Outline Business Case for this at the end of next year as the next major decision point (more £bns). This feasibility study with Sweden reports next year and will inform whether they will sign up to the acquisition programme at that point.

Countries don't just decide overnight to commit to tens of £bns cost over a few decades.
 

Deino

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I know most dontlike this - IMO my opinion - but I see the Tempest already now as a dead project. If matters go really worse with Brexit, the British economy IMO will have so severe issues, that finalising this project is plain impossible. But again, it is my own opinion...
 

kaiserd

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I know most dontlike this - IMO my opinion - but I see the Tempest already now as a dead project. If matters go really worse with Brexit, the British economy IMO will have so severe issues, that finalising this project is plain impossible. But again, it is my own opinion...
Before the likely pile on I’d like to both agree and slightly disagree with you :)

As per my comments previous in this thread I would also have real doubts if we will ever see an actual UK-only or even UK lead “Tempest” entering service.
However it might lead to the UK having an equal or junior partnership role in another combat aircraft project down the road in a post-B-word world.
 

dan_inbox

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However it might lead to the UK having an equal or junior partnership role in another combat aircraft project down the road in a post-B-word world.
This sorta assumes that a UK (as in UNITED Kingdom) would continue to exists long enough in a post-B world. Which may not be the most likely scenario.
 

Foo Fighter

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No idea where that comes from, the Scots are not really going to depart, all hot air and noise.
 

DWG

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No idea where that comes from, the Scots are not really going to depart, all hot air and noise.
44.7% were ready for it at the Independence poll. Are you willing to bet Brexit hasn't pissed off 5.3% of Scots who previously thought the UK was the best option, but now see the UK shooting itself in the foot and claiming it's good for them?
 

dan_inbox

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Hmmm. My comment about the UK after Brexit was meant in jest, not to start a discussion on politics.
(which are very important and rather sad, yes, but SPF is not the place for it)
Please, let's not drift into this and let's revert to the Tempest programme.
 

Flyaway

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Here’s a article on the news which reads rather differently to what some have been posting on here:


More:

 
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Jemiba

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Though Brexit, howsoever, without doubt will have consequences for the British aerospace industry,
PLEASE, don't let this thread slip into political debates !
 
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red admiral

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Deino

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...
Doesn't seem very dead given the progress being made and money being spent...
Don't get me wrong and I would really be happy to see the Tempest flying and being successful, my point - and I won't go too much into politics - that given so much irrational behaviour (on both sides) the true consequences of Brexit are barely foreseeable (again for both sides), so that in the end I'm highly sceptical especially if the promised "golden times without the EU" by the Brexiteers will indeed come true ... time will tell.
 

Hood

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Its a bullish statement, stating that Europe can afford two programmes and that SCAF does not meet the Combat Air Strategy (I wonder in what way? purely industrially?) so co-operation is unfavorable. But of course the government would say that at this early stage.
There is no doubt that there is a critical mass behind the Future Combat Air System Technology Initiative in terms of work.
My only caveat I would point out, is that grand words were spoken about the Anglo-French FCAS effort back in 2010 and that evaporated with little to show for it.
 

red admiral

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Its a bullish statement, stating that Europe can afford two programmes and that SCAF does not meet the Combat Air Strategy (I wonder in what way? purely industrially?) so co-operation is unfavorable. But of course the government would say that at this early stage.
There is no doubt that there is a critical mass behind the Future Combat Air System Technology Initiative in terms of work.
My only caveat I would point out, is that grand words were spoken about the Anglo-French FCAS effort back in 2010 and that evaporated with little to show for it.
Well Europe afforded three separate programmes last time around. A notional cross-Europe Fr-Ger-Spain-Italy-UK-Sweden programme would be very inefficient with so many partners. 6 different final assembly lines? Unless "partnership" means laying off all your national engineers and handing over loads of cash to Dassault.... and you're having to pay for other countries' requirements e.g. carrier capable, different weapons integration. There's an optimum number of partners for this sort of programme and it isn't 6.

The UK-Fr UCAS was a political project and will be interesting for the historians. We've only had the Dassault side of the story released so far after all.
 

kaiserd

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...
Doesn't seem very dead given the progress being made and money being spent...
Don't get me wrong and I would really be happy to see the Tempest flying and being successful, my point - and I won't go too much into politics - that given so much irrational behaviour (on both sides) the true consequences of Brexit are barely foreseeable (again for both sides), so that in the end I'm highly sceptical especially if the promised "golden times without the EU" by the Brexiteers will indeed come true ... time will tell.
As stated above without getting into the B-word politics of it all we are commenting at a very uncertain time in UK politics (new prime minister and cabinet in today, new defense minister in this evening replacing another that had been involved office a matter of days, uncertain economic position, likely to be an election in the immediate future, etc.)
And again without getting into the deep politics of it all there are certain factions very keen to promote projects that have more jingoistic resonances and which are currently less interested in international cooperative projects with countries that happen to be members of the EU.
Hence re: Project Tempest a lot may be promised right now; we’ll see how much of it actually works out in the end.
 
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Flyaway

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I think it is worth noting this quote from the article.

Officials here at the DSEI defense trade show were still unsure as of Tuesday afternoon in what form the government-to-government agreement would be announced, saying that Italy’s and Britain’s turbulent political situations made for little certainty. It appeared that a written statement by the respective defense ministries would be published by Wednesday morning, to be accompanied by a formal event that day.
 

kaiserd

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The actual wording of the statement (rather than headlines or sone of the analysis) suggests Italy is, rather like Sweden, somewhat involved and signing up for developing technology etc. but as of yet has certainly not definitively signed up for any specific program leading to common airframe etc.
 

archipeppe

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The actual wording of the statement (rather than headlines or sone of the analysis) suggests Italy is, rather like Sweden, somewhat involved and signing up for developing technology etc. but as of yet has certainly not definitively signed up for any specific program leading to common airframe etc.
Italy's is definitely by UK's side in Tempest programme as third partner:


(unfortunately all the news I found out were only in Italian language)
 

kaiserd

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The actual wording of the statement (rather than headlines or sone of the analysis) suggests Italy is, rather like Sweden, somewhat involved and signing up for developing technology etc. but as of yet has certainly not definitively signed up for any specific program leading to common airframe etc.
Italy's is definitely by UK's side in Tempest programme as third partner:


(unfortunately all the news I found out were only in Italian language)
I think that what Italy has actually signed up to goes back to earlier discussions above re: the current nature of the “Team Tempest” project (at least initially appears more focused on related technology development rather than a race to build a new airframe).

 

red admiral

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I think that what Italy has actually signed up to goes back to earlier discussions above re: the current nature of the “Team Tempest” project (at least initially appears more focused on related technology development rather than a race to build a new airframe).
Yes, the UK Combat Air Strategy shows the long term thinking for a new aircraft, but currently this is at the Concept / Demonstration phases up till Outline Business Case next year. You don't jump into a 10s £bns / 40 year programme overnight
 

Foo Fighter

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Accelerated development basically but at this stage it will be drumming up money/business for the project rather than anything meaningful.
 
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