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Tempest - UK Future fighter programme

Foo Fighter

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I think you mean all bridges being burned by the eu.......
 

overscan

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Sorry, brexit discussion is far off topic for this forum.
 

Hood

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Sounds a little like journalistic flair.
Just because Leonardo is involved in Team Tempest, that doesn't indicate Italy will automatically join the Tempest club. It's making strides with the F-35 fleet, looks to be settling on that as their main combat aircraft and it has given them a manufacturing boost with the F-35 Final Assembly and Checkout Facility which will keep them in work for a long time.
The Netherlands is an odd choice, but they may be looking a longer-term options.

As for a future single European project, I have to admit scepticism. The Franco-German agreement has handed top shares and leadership to Dassault and Safran for the airframe and engine and time will tell if Thales will take a lead on some of the systems. The French industry has cornered a good slice of the industrial pie for themselves and can assert French requirements and objectives. Are they likely to relinquish a slice of that to BAE Systems, Leonardo or SAAB or Rolls-Royce? Is Airbus going to be keen on losing a slice of its sub-contractor status when Enders stated goal has been to dominate the European military manufacturing segment? I suspect as FCAS/SCAF matures, more emphasis will fall on buying a complete integrated combat system. The UK won't even be part of Galileo, just one basic building block, and the RAF may well rely on US UCAVs for some time. How compatible will they be?
A lot of questions, and none of them have easy answers.
 

TomcatViP

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Hood said:
The UK won't even be part of Galileo, just one basic building block, and the RAF may well rely on US UCAVs for some time. How compatible will they be?
I am sure we will see a competing team on the EU (geo) UCAV market. We have so much dynamism on the peripheral EU nations and so much uncommitted talents among some of of the traditional airframer.

Boeing could have a prime interested to capitalize on the situation with its MQ-25 project and diversify this product into a dual role UCAS. It might even be a low cost move that could open great returns. Especially if they open a cooperation with some systems and airframe manufacturer in EU (geo). By offering an airframe already tuned for stealth this would offer a drastic cost reduction on the finalized products, still use a lot of the Stealth ressources of the partner nations and produces synchronicity for any future adaptation requested by the USN. Think F-18L.

On the geo-strategic terms, this would fix sensitive knowledge and reduces unwanted bridges with peer opponents (IMOHO one the the main reason why the Trump administration wants to see defense spending increases in Europe).
 

harrier

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Remember Team Tempest is not about developing the model shown at Farnborough, but looking at technologies that may apply to Typhoon and F-35 as well as a possible future air combat vehicle/platform/system/capability.....

On that basis Italy and the Netherlands might have an interest in it, although there is nothing except this article that says that. It is an interesting snippet, but not actual news unless confirmed.
 

TomcatViP

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Seems to be hard truth for the Spanish MoD:

Currently there are two projects that aspire to be the eurocaza of the 21st century: the Franco-German program and the British Tempest, to which the Netherlands and Italy have joined. From the Ministry of Defense is convinced that both programs will eventually merge, given the huge investment that requires its development.

Despite this, and with the interest to participate in the project from its initial phase, Spain has decided to join the project of Paris and Berlin.
From KeyPub (original link from user Sintra here: http://www.defensa.gob.es/gabinete/notasPrensa/2018/12/DGC-181203-caza-europeo-ngws.html )
 

LowObservable

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The Spanish decision is pukka gen.

As for the Netherlands: don't forget that most of the Cloggies' industrial participation in F-35 is now British-owned, since GKN bought Fokker Technologies.
 

harrier

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Lucky Fokkers!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/01/gkn-stripped-sold-for-parts-miller-hanson
 

harrier

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Tempest updates:

In IOC of F-35 press release:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/defence-secretary-sets-sights-on-next-century-of-british-air-power

IOC stated as being hoped for in 2035, although related graphic shows it may slide right (see attached, although it also seems to indicate Typhoon in service since 1980s!)

Also, statement on full range of FCAS TI projects (and much else too - only 40 Typhoons with E-Scan, Canada pinching shipyard workers for Type 26 etc.):

http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/defence-committee/work-of-des/written/93913.html

"A nine-year funded programme of record exists for the FCAS TI, of which the Team Tempest project is a subset. This programme consists of three main elements; PYRAMID (an Open Mission Systems Initiative); National Projects; and International Projects. Team Tempest is a part of the National Projects element and is jointly funded by the MOD and industry. All other FCAS TI activities are currently solely funded by the MOD. The MOD is contributing c.£2 billion to the FCAS TI programme."

Note that it is not the case that £2 billion is being paid by MoD for a plane called Tempest.
 

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harrier

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Another picture from today.

Emphasises just how low slung the model is.

For weapons loading presumably 'robots' is the answer! :eek:
 

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kaiserd

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Harrier said:
Another picture from today.

Emphasises just how low slung the model is.

For weapons loading presumably 'robots' is the answer! :eek:
Really short robots.... something else for them to inevitably hold against us...
 

TsrJoe

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RAF. Marham, January 2019 ... http://www.joint-forces.com/uk-news/20790-new-facility-opened-at-raf-marham
 

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Trident

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Harrier said:
Tempest updates:

In IOC of F-35 press release:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/defence-secretary-sets-sights-on-next-century-of-british-air-power

IOC stated as being hoped for in 2035, although related graphic shows it may slide right (see attached, although it also seems to indicate Typhoon in service since 1980s!)
Is it just me or is that Tempest silhouette in fact Replica?
 

harrier

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Seems to be. The whole graphic seems like an intern went unsupervised.

Not seen any document it came from, apart from a video on Twitter.
 

kaiserd

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So per that time-line the “Tempest” (or at least what ever aircraft emerges from this investment and development effort) is intend to go into service approx 2040.
While it would be foolish too read to much into a press-release it does put some enthusiasts hopes/ expectations of a much shorter development schedule in context and does show we are in very early lets-see-what-happens stages rather than a hell-for-leather race to develop and fly a particular (UK only) airframe and systems.
 

harrier

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I think the graphic is just badly drawn. I don't think much should be read into it.

A shame as MoD info on this has been pretty sharp so far, although the BAE model has led to some confusion.
 

Jackonicko

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It amazes me that people read so much into the Tempest model.

It was based on that concept (of many competing concepts, several of which are still under active consideration) for the convenience of the model makers, and perhaps because that concept seemed the most promising at the time they had to design the mock up. By the time it was revealed, other concepts may have been judged more promising.

It was sized (including height off the ground) for transport and assembly requirements, and to fit within the constrained dimensions of marquees and exhibition spaces.

The eventual manned platform within FCAS is most unlikely to look anything like the Tempest model. And even if that concept does end up forming the basis of the eventual FCA it will not be exactly that size, or shape.
 

TsrJoe

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http://www.anigrand.com/AA2138_Tempest.htm ... hmm, the parts as shown look to be oddly proportioned, inaccurate and not representative of the mockup aircraft as built, truly a missed opportunity, it seems a bit on the expensive side too :(

I hope to have a more accurate kit avaliable through SpotOn resins very soon based upon the actual aircraft mockups (I am at the stage of cleaning up masters from accurate 3D printed forms)
 

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Deltafan

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https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2019/02/15/taking-sides-italian-defense-industry-rep-attacks-franco-german-fighter-deal/

Italy would do well to sign up with the U.K. to work on the British future fighter known as Tempest
 

FighterJock

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Deltafan said:
https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2019/02/15/taking-sides-italian-defense-industry-rep-attacks-franco-german-fighter-deal/

Italy would do well to sign up with the U.K. to work on the British future fighter known as Tempest
I do hope that Italy stay's with Team Tempest and not getting cold feet and going over to the France German fighter program.
 

Hood

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The answer is of course simple, Spain is guaranteed workshare in SCAF as what was once CASA is now part of Airbus.
Leonardo's Caselle facility and the F-35 facility at Cameri are not part of the Airbus empire so there is no reason for Dassault or Airbus to give up a stakehold unless political reasons to provide a sweetener to get Italian Euros for the programme become pressing.

Let's look at what the F-35 deal included, over 27 directly contracted Italian companies plus over 70 sub-contractors for the airframe and 9 directly contracted Italian companies for the engine side, potentially $14 billion dollars worth of contracts by 2039 with already almost $2 billion awarded.
So its only right that Italy wants a similar large-scale deal if they are to join the Franco-German programme.

As to whether sticking with FCAS/Team Tempest or Franco-German is the best choice who knows. Both have political commitments with cash behind them. The Franco-German fighter is a concept, the Anglo FCAS is still rather more nebulous as to what might actually come out of it. Team Tempest has opted to the start with the systems, Dassabus seems to be going the traditional way and going down the airframe/engines route early on but its very early days in both programmes. If I was to bet on which one is more likely to reach hardware, my money would go on Dassabus (or Airsault). ;)
 

LowObservable

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potentially $14 billion dollars worth of contracts by 2039

This reminds me of an old, rude and non-PC joke about the difference between "potentially" and "actually".
 

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Airframe dev cycle have been cut short drastically (thanks to CAE and integrated virtual simulation testing). It's a reality that we can see today with the plethora of programs colliding in our old rythmed agenda.
Team tempest took the right path (just like did PCA).
 

kaiserd

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TomcatViP said:
Airframe dev cycle have been cut short drastically (thanks to CAE and integrated virtual simulation testing). It's a reality that we can see today with the plethora of programs colliding in our old rythmed agenda.
Team tempest took the right path (just like did PCA).
Not sure you can make an actual informed distinction between “Team Tempest” and potentially rival projects in terms of what approach(es)/ paths they are or are not actually taking.
And it’s too early to sit on judgement on if “Team Tempest” has taken the right approach/ path.
 

TomcatViP

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My comment is limited to early design work being routed in direction of systems rather than airframe design. Not an overall GodEye assumption of the merits of both ;)
 

hesham

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fightingirish said:
flateric said:
This is a sketch from BAE Warton media day that was much earlier.
Probably these top down views of these studies are based on sketches from that BAE Warton media day.

Source: Air Force Monthly, Issue September 2018, page 96
The last one is beauty.
 

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FighterJock

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hesham said:
fightingirish said:
flateric said:
This is a sketch from BAE Warton media day that was much earlier.
Probably these top down views of these studies are based on sketches from that BAE Warton media day.

Source: Air Force Monthly, Issue September 2018, page 96
The last one is beauty.
Certainly is hesham, I wonder if it will ever be built though. Probably not, which will be a pity.
 

harrier

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The head of Warton's project team used to keep a Star Wars TIE fighter on his desk.

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1991/1991%20-%200426.html

attached is another, from the 'Clone Wars'.

Maybe...?
 

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harrier

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https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/uk-offers-collaboration-in-fighter-tech-carriers/article26424904.ece
 

Flyaway

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UK Tempest Next-Gen Fighter Program Draws Notice Of Potential Partners

As potential foreign partners take a serious interest in British proposals to develop a new-generation combat aircraft, the UK government and industry are quietly working on the technologies that will pave the way for it. Few details of the Tempest’s progress have emerged in the nine months since British Defense Secretary Gavin Williamson unveiled the UK vision for a new combat aircraft to be ready in the late 2030s. To get there, the UK is taking a multipronged approach. While the ...

http://m.aviationweek.com/combat-aircraft/uk-tempest-next-gen-fighter-program-draws-notice-potential-partners
 

FighterJock

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Excellent news about Sweden having talks about potentially joining Tempest. Is this Sweden looking ahead to supplement the Grippen E?
 

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Excellent news about Sweden having talks about potentially joining Tempest. Is this Sweden looking ahead to supplement the Grippen E?
Supplement it on the international market? Probably, and eventually replace it. They're quite pleased with T-X, not only for the US contract but for the big potential market out there. The Franco-German and American frontline fighter programs don't seem interested in that sort arrangement, but the UK may be receptive enough make it happen.
 

Flyaway

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Excellent news about Sweden having talks about potentially joining Tempest. Is this Sweden looking ahead to supplement the Grippen E?
Supplement it on the international market? Probably, and eventually replace it. They're quite pleased with T-X, not only for the US contract but for the big potential market out there. The Franco-German and American frontline fighter programs don't seem interested in that sort arrangement, but the UK may be receptive enough make it happen.
Along with Japan, at least to me, they’ve always seemed the most logical of partners in the project.
 

kaiserd

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Excellent news about Sweden having talks about potentially joining Tempest. Is this Sweden looking ahead to supplement the Grippen E?
Supplement it on the international market? Probably, and eventually replace it. They're quite pleased with T-X, not only for the US contract but for the big potential market out there. The Franco-German and American frontline fighter programs don't seem interested in that sort arrangement, but the UK may be receptive enough make it happen.
Along with Japan, at least to me, they’ve always seemed the most logical of partners in the project.
A partnership with Sweden is possible but may not get you to a critical mass to make the project really realistic and robust.

Sorry but a partnership with Japan is almost certainly a highly unrealistic pipe dream.
At least 90 percent likely they’ll stick with the US for this - for political, economic and technical reasons it’s a real no-brainer for them.
If this or something of that scale is required for the UK program to be viable then it’s not going to be viable.
 

TomcatViP

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I am not sure that the US want to share their next USAF platform with any foreign gov. I can only see that being plausible for the USN if for real both projects are split. So, to me there is still room for a joint project with the UK.
 

Foo Fighter

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A joint project with Sweden AND Japan would be a reasonable prospect, at least there would be no hastle with France demanding to be lead and majority builder while also getting less dosh in to the project and more out.
 
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