Flyaway

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It will be interesting to see what results come out of the flight testing of the nose from the Tempest will be when Leonardo flys the 757 test plane, whether or not the front nose section of the Tempest needs a redesign.
Notice the nose is hard to see even in the painting. Not sure how easy it will be to keep the nose away from public eyes on the actual 757.
 

RavenOne

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Flyaway

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LONDON, Sept 29 (Reuters) - BAE Systems (BAES.L) said Tempest, the British-led project to build a new fighter jet, would sign contracts with partners Italy and Sweden by the end of this year and talks were ongoing with Japan about joining the project.

BAE's director of Future Combat Air Systems Michael Christie said he expected contracts with the two partners on the concept and assessment phase to be signed by the end of 2021.

Talks with Japan ranged from the country joining the programme as a partner to collaborating on technology, he said.

"There's a lot of commonality between the UK and Japan in terms of what they're trying to achieve in this sphere ... that's an ongoing area and one that we are actively pursuing," Christie told Reuters in an interview on Wednesday.
"We are challenging ourselves effectively to deliver the Tempest system in half the time we delivered Typhoon," he said.

The aim is for the main development programme to start in 2025, with the jet operational by 2035.


Christie envisages a manned aircraft surrounded by unmanned drones and smart weapons, connected by an information cloud, but says the decisions on how Tempest operates won't be finalised until 2025.

 

FighterJock

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LONDON, Sept 29 (Reuters) - BAE Systems (BAES.L) said Tempest, the British-led project to build a new fighter jet, would sign contracts with partners Italy and Sweden by the end of this year and talks were ongoing with Japan about joining the project.

BAE's director of Future Combat Air Systems Michael Christie said he expected contracts with the two partners on the concept and assessment phase to be signed by the end of 2021.

Talks with Japan ranged from the country joining the programme as a partner to collaborating on technology, he said.

"There's a lot of commonality between the UK and Japan in terms of what they're trying to achieve in this sphere ... that's an ongoing area and one that we are actively pursuing," Christie told Reuters in an interview on Wednesday.
"We are challenging ourselves effectively to deliver the Tempest system in half the time we delivered Typhoon," he said.

The aim is for the main development programme to start in 2025, with the jet operational by 2035.


Christie envisages a manned aircraft surrounded by unmanned drones and smart weapons, connected by an information cloud, but says the decisions on how Tempest operates won't be finalised until 2025.


Good news about Tempest, hopefully the design phase will move forward without any problems and Japan will join soon. I have my fingers crossed that Japan will join, as designing and building a sixth generation fighter will be too expensive to develop on their own.
 

Hood

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Yeah the first photo caption reckons Tempest is an F-15, way to go Lancashire Telegraph.

I can't see Japan joining as a full partner, maybe to share certain key technologies but I doubt they will want the full package.
 

Flyaway

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Yeah the first photo caption reckons Tempest is an F-15, way to go Lancashire Telegraph.

I can't see Japan joining as a full partner, maybe to share certain key technologies but I doubt they will want the full package.
What is your reasoning on that?
 

Hood

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What is your reasoning on that?
First, several announcements by BAE previously have indicated cooperation at the subsystem level and on engines (https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/japan-uk-discuss-partnership-on-fighter-jet-engines).

They have already signed an agreement with Lockheed Martin to assist with the design of the airframe and LO aspects.

Japan will want a sizable domestic industry input in regards to systems and of course airframe construction and assembly.

Two large and two small partners on Tempest might strain the workshare and make it impossible to reach agreement. Building F-35s across the world made some economic sense when talking of production runs of thousands, but 450-500 Tempests

We don't know what the official operational requirements are behind Tempest and F-X, they might not be compatible. On the face of it, both Tempest and F-X are likely to be very similar in design and the wider combat system is likely to be too but there might be important differences in role and how they are designed to meet whatever parameters have been laid down.

There may well be US technology issues that might hamper sharing of information between Japan and the UK and Italy/Sweden too.

We don't know much about the unmanned aspects of either Tempest or F-X, work has only just begun. There might be room for synergy but equally the US might offer the Boeing Loyal Wingman or XQ-58 to both nations or they might go it alone with Mosquito and whatever Japanese system emerges.

I've seen nothing so far that indicates Japan is likely to chuck away its work done so far (ATD-X etc) and jump onto Tempest. That discussions about the option of full partnership have taken place I don't doubt, but I don't see it happening unless US support vanished from F-X.
 

Flyaway

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What is your reasoning on that?
First, several announcements by BAE previously have indicated cooperation at the subsystem level and on engines (https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/japan-uk-discuss-partnership-on-fighter-jet-engines).

They have already signed an agreement with Lockheed Martin to assist with the design of the airframe and LO aspects.

Japan will want a sizable domestic industry input in regards to systems and of course airframe construction and assembly.

Two large and two small partners on Tempest might strain the workshare and make it impossible to reach agreement. Building F-35s across the world made some economic sense when talking of production runs of thousands, but 450-500 Tempests

We don't know what the official operational requirements are behind Tempest and F-X, they might not be compatible. On the face of it, both Tempest and F-X are likely to be very similar in design and the wider combat system is likely to be too but there might be important differences in role and how they are designed to meet whatever parameters have been laid down.

There may well be US technology issues that might hamper sharing of information between Japan and the UK and Italy/Sweden too.

We don't know much about the unmanned aspects of either Tempest or F-X, work has only just begun. There might be room for synergy but equally the US might offer the Boeing Loyal Wingman or XQ-58 to both nations or they might go it alone with Mosquito and whatever Japanese system emerges.

I've seen nothing so far that indicates Japan is likely to chuck away its work done so far (ATD-X etc) and jump onto Tempest. That discussions about the option of full partnership have taken place I don't doubt, but I don't see it happening unless US support vanished from F-X.
And yet here is this article I posted only the other day.

 

Ingraman

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Reading the last Key Publishing Special about Tempest... I'm starting to think Jap and UK want some pretty different fighters...
" We are not developing an high-power-to-weight ratio fighter. They are NOT going to engage enemies in a traditional manner. They won't be highly manoeuvrable. Will engage stand-off. We will use higher bypass ratio engine than legacy fighters."
Focus on electric generation and heat management.
 

TomcatViP

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Don't forget that there is no confirmation that the goal outside Bae would be a single airframe for all.

1. Japan will be reluctant to trash all their hard work in airframe design unless Tempest can prove it is better suited (survivability performance)
2. Even if we can forsee similar requirements in term of range b/w Japan and the UK, UK closest partners (geographically speaking), Sweden and Italy would certainly push for a lighter design
3. The US involvement would certainly not accommodate itself with the plethora of partners in team Tempest (that still might grow).

Hence, IMOHO, the emphasis will be on a serie of common systems and mutually shared Sciences and technologies to trim down cost and hasten future sustainment loops (upgrades).
It is however also possible that Tempest will inherit its shapes from the Japanese fighter and that a smaller airframe, optionally manned, would be the basis for the Joint UK/Sweden/Italy design. An optionally manned airframe offering more range in its unmanned version, possibly reaching the requirements for a long range Loyal wingman able to stand aside the long range fighter.
 
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supergaleb

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Can someone explain me how is UK suppose to afford development of new combat aircraft?
 

Hood

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And yet here is this article I posted only the other day.
The article tells us nothing other than "Talks with Japan ranged from the country joining the programme as a partner to collaborating on technology," which covers a lot of ground, doesn't say when these talks took place or which option is favoured. Its logical they would explore a range of options, but that doesn't tell us which option the Japanese feel is the best for them. The statement ignores the previous agreements from July that specifically state "sub-systems" and the engine technology deal with Rolls-Royce, it also ignores LMs involvement on the F-X airframe.
It even goes over the defence media's obsession with Tempest-SCAF one day merging, BAE seems pretty cool towards that idea, doubtless Dassault wouldn't go near the idea with a barge pole now. And an Anglo-Franco-German-Sweedish-Italo-Japanese-American fighter sounds about as realistic as buying J-20s from China.

Can someone explain me how is UK suppose to afford development of new combat aircraft?
Are you kidding, we chucked £66 billion on a covid tracing app that didn't work, we're likely to spend £80+billion on a high-speed rail link nobody wants. £2 billion for Tempest is small fry, the cost of two Type 45 destroyers. Quite frankly there is no excuse not to do this.
 

Flyaway

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And yet here is this article I posted only the other day.
The article tells us nothing other than "Talks with Japan ranged from the country joining the programme as a partner to collaborating on technology," which covers a lot of ground, doesn't say when these talks took place or which option is favoured. Its logical they would explore a range of options, but that doesn't tell us which option the Japanese feel is the best for them. The statement ignores the previous agreements from July that specifically state "sub-systems" and the engine technology deal with Rolls-Royce, it also ignores LMs involvement on the F-X airframe.
It even goes over the defence media's obsession with Tempest-SCAF one day merging, BAE seems pretty cool towards that idea, doubtless Dassault wouldn't go near the idea with a barge pole now. And an Anglo-Franco-German-Sweedish-Italo-Japanese-American fighter sounds about as realistic as buying J-20s from China.

Can someone explain me how is UK suppose to afford development of new combat aircraft?
Are you kidding, we chucked £66 billion on a covid tracing app that didn't work, we're likely to spend £80+billion on a high-speed rail link nobody wants. £2 billion for Tempest is small fry, the cost of two Type 45 destroyers. Quite frankly there is no excuse not to do this.
I read the article as meaning talks were active and ongoing.
 

datafuser

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Can someone explain me how is UK suppose to afford development of new combat aircraft?
By another round of Quantitative Easing perhaps?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_easing#United_Kingdom

Below is from a paper by the RUSI.

" Affordability is therefore a matter of national priority, political will and, inevitably, political debate. Especially in today’s situation, as The Economist put it, ‘Governments can borrow more than was once believed’. Who would have said in 2019 that the UK could ‘afford’ the furlough scheme and ‘Operation Moonshot’ associated with the coronavirus pandemic?

In simple terms, the UK and its government can afford the Combat Air Strategy, if necessary with contributions from outside the core defence budget if it perceives it to be of sufficient importance. "

92. The Economist, ‘Putting on Weight: Governments Can Borrow More Than Was Once Believed’, 12 September 2020, p. 59.

93. Sarah Boseley and Robert Booth, ‘What is No 10’s “Moonshot” Covid Testing Plan and is it Feasible?’, The Guardian, 9 September 2020. The Johnson government apparently feels it worthwhile to sacrifice more than 5% of GDP to escape from the EU. See Ben Chu, ‘Brexit to Cost Britain More Than 5% of GDP by 2030, Say City Economists’, The Independent, 23 January 2017; HM Government, EU Exit: Long-Term Economic Analysis, Cm 9742 (London: The Stationery Office, 2018).

https://rusi.org/sites/default/files/tempest_programme_final_web_version_0.pdf
 

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