Surface Ships Need More Offensive Punch, Outlook

[marauder2048]

Can you make up the lost capability of the Ticos by just building more Burkes? Say 3 Burkes to 2 Ticos? Can quantity make up for quality?

If you buy that distributed radar gives you an SNR improvement that's quadratic in the number of nodes (ships) it comes down
to 9 * (SNR of one Burke array) vs. 4 * (SNR of one Tico array).

 

[Moose]

Can you make up the lost capability of the Ticos by just building more Burkes? Say 3 Burkes to 2 Ticos? Can quantity make up for quality?

If it were just a matter of VLS cells, sure, and it would help overall numbers. But the fleet would still lose the command facilities and associated spaces the CGs have, the gigantic Ship's Mission Centers on the 3 Zs will be the only decent command facilities not on a carrier or LCC. Whole lotta people, even many who should know better, try to handwave away the problems of cramming Alpha Whiskey, or a SAG command staff, into a Burke's CIC for the long term. I'd also point out that command hulls should have additional survivability, which an overloaded DDG-51 hull would not.

Then there's the generational problem of new, larger, more power-hungry systems coming into the fleet. Even if we're not going to do "cruisers" anymore and don't care about the command issues, we can't stick with a 1980s hull much longer if we hope to carry 2030s and onwards weapons, sensors, ECM, etc.

 

[Desertfox]

So the next question would then be, can we go back to the era of "single-purpose" frigates? Can you build some Burkes as "command" destroyers and some as BMD destroyers and the rest as multi-purpose ships? Don't cram everything into one ship, distribute it among the fleet. The BMD destroyers for example wouldn't need the ASW suite of the other ones.

 

[Foo Fighter]

Sort of related question, how come the Valley Forge was decommisioned and sunkas a target after 18 years of service? Apparently intended for a 30 year service life, what was the thinking behind this? Best I could find was a meaningless suggestion that the missile systems were not up top scratch but, with an intended 30 years service life an update was always on the cards. I do wish the military around the world could find a manual on joined up thinking, and read the muddy thing.......

 

[Moose]

Sort of related question, how come the Valley Forge was decommisioned and sunkas a target after 18 years of service? Apparently intended for a 30 year service life, what was the thinking behind this? Best I could find was a meaningless suggestion that the missile systems were not up top scratch but, with an intended 30 years service life an update was always on the cards. I do wish the military around the world could find a manual on joined up thinking, and read the muddy thing.......

The first 5 Ticonderoga class were built without VLS because Mk41 wasn't ready in 1980 and the Navy didn't want to wait until it was. The plan to re-arm these 5 hulls with VLS during a major refit ran into a lot of cost issues, and keeping them as-was would mean keeping the MK26 supply chain and the production line for Non-VLS Standards going. The Gordon England-Donald Rumsfeld-era Navy decided they'd rather retire the non-VLS combatants way ahead of time to save money than pay for a comprehensive refit plan. To make matters worse, right around 2003 they suddenly fell in love with SINKEXing modern combatants. There's plenty of good reasons to sink a recent ship once in awhile, but it became something of a fetish for the mid-to-late 2000s navy. Valley Forge and twenty five Spruance class were sunk in half a decade.

This has also lead to some theorizing, which may not be far off, that the mass retirements and rapid sinking/scrapping was part of a campaign to pressure Congress to keep money flowing into LCS and the DDG programs.

So the next question would then be, can we go back to the era of "single-purpose" frigates? Can you build some Burkes as "command" destroyers and some as BMD destroyers and the rest as multi-purpose ships? Don't cram everything into one ship, distribute it among the fleet. The BMD destroyers for example wouldn't need the ASW suite of the other ones.

Not all that easily, the Burke class is well designed as a multi-mission combatant but doesn't have the designed-in flexibility or reconfigurable spaces that some more modern concepts have. A "Command" version needs additional command space that doesn't really fit anywhere easily, which is why the Japanese and Korean command destroyers descended from the Burke both are larger (longer, wider, taller) and have additional decks.

 

[sferrin]

Yep. 61 VLS cells, 2 5" guns, 2 Phalanx, Sea Sparrow, Harpoon, two helicopters. Virtually useless.

 

[Desertfox]

Not all that easily, the Burke class is well designed as a multi-mission combatant but doesn't have the designed-in flexibility or reconfigurable spaces that some more modern concepts have. A "Command" version needs additional command space that doesn't really fit anywhere easily, which is why the Japanese and Korean command destroyers descended from the Burke both are larger (longer, wider, taller) and have additional decks.

Is there a reason we can't use the bigger Japanese and Korean designs as the base for the Flight IV Burkes instead of the current hulls? That should go part way into solving the problem.

 

[sferrin]

Not all that easily, the Burke class is well designed as a multi-mission combatant but doesn't have the designed-in flexibility or reconfigurable spaces that some more modern concepts have. A "Command" version needs additional command space that doesn't really fit anywhere easily, which is why the Japanese and Korean command destroyers descended from the Burke both are larger (longer, wider, taller) and have additional decks.

Is there a reason we can't use the bigger Japanese and Korean designs as the base for the Flight IV Burkes instead of the current hulls? That should go part way into solving the problem.

IIRC they're built to commercial standards, not military.

 

[Moose]

Not all that easily, the Burke class is well designed as a multi-mission combatant but doesn't have the designed-in flexibility or reconfigurable spaces that some more modern concepts have. A "Command" version needs additional command space that doesn't really fit anywhere easily, which is why the Japanese and Korean command destroyers descended from the Burke both are larger (longer, wider, taller) and have additional decks.

Is there a reason we can't use the bigger Japanese and Korean designs as the base for the Flight IV Burkes instead of the current hulls? That should go part way into solving the problem.

It comes up somewhat regularly. The short version is, the cost of American-izing them would essentially run the same as taking a Flight III and inflating it to the same size and would produce largely the same end product. While there's appeal to that idea, the resulting destroyers would be so distinct from the existing Burke variants as to have an impact on the budget and logistics similar to that of having an entirely new class of ship, but without the future-proofing baked into an all-new ship.

 

[Moose]

LCS (finally) has its first deployment with NSM.

 

[Forest Green]

Yep. 61 VLS cells, 2 5" guns, 2 Phalanx, Sea Sparrow, Harpoon, two helicopters. Virtually useless.

View attachment 617924

Hasn't that been decommissioned?

USS Spruance (DD-963) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[sferrin]

Yep. 61 VLS cells, 2 5" guns, 2 Phalanx, Sea Sparrow, Harpoon, two helicopters. Virtually useless.

View attachment 617924

Hasn't that been decommissioned?

USS Spruance (DD-963) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I was being sarcastic. Most of them have been sunk.

 

[Forest Green]

I was being sarcastic. Most of them have been sunk.

I particularly liked the old CGNs.

 

[sferrin]

I was being sarcastic. Most of them have been sunk.

I particularly liked the old CGNs.

Yep. Loved the Leahys and Virginias.

 

[Moose]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1179400298995109889

 

[bobbymike]

Acting US Navy secretary: Deliver me a 355-ship fleet by 2030

The acting Navy secretary has made it clear he's serious about a 355-ship fleet.

www.defensenews.com

 

[jsport]

Navy To Slash 24 Ships in 2021 Plan, Bolster Unmanned Effort

The OMB, clearly taken by surprise by the Navy plan, told the Pentagon to “submit a resource-informed plan to achieve a 355-ship combined fleet, including manned and unmanned ships, by 2030.”

breakingdefense.com

 

[sferrin]

Somebody should tell them that slashing 24 ships is not the way to get to 355. (Unless they plan on counting those unmanned boats as "ships".)

 

[Forest Green]

They'll be including the life rafts next.

 

[Moose]

Somebody should tell them that slashing 24 ships is not the way to get to 355. (Unless they plan on counting those unmanned boats as "ships".)

That is exactly what the White House is telling them to do.

 

[sferrin]

Somebody should tell them that slashing 24 ships is not the way to get to 355. (Unless they plan on counting those unmanned boats as "ships".)

That is exactly what the White House is telling them to do.

 

[bobbymike]

Pentagon proposal cuts an FFG(X) and an attack submarine from the budget

A Pentagon proposal would slow the buying profile for both the new FFG(X) program and the Virginia-class submarine.

www.defensenews.com

 

[bobbymike]

https://csbaonline.org/research/publications/taking-back-the-seas-transforming-the-u.s-surface-fleet-for-decision-centric-warfare?fbclid=IwAR3K2VpDWiL1Y-eapUdx6hnxGIoVjHNPsz5Es-DEUaWO_Be4mGBCiWMgKUk

 

[bobbymike]

VADM Brown: Future Fleet Must Be Bigger, Leverage Unmanned Vessels - USNI News

The Navy needs a bigger fleet – and while ongoing budget talks don’t sound promising for the buildup of manned warships that some had envisioned, the surface force is working hard to quickly bring unmanned vessels into the force to expand its reach and capability. Vice Adm. Richard Brown, the...

news.usni.org

 

[bobbymike]

CNO Gilday Calls for Budget Increase to Reach 355 Ship Fleet; New Battle Force Count Won’t Include Unmanned Ships - USNI News

ARLINGTON, Va. – If the nation wants a 355-ship fleet in the next decade, the Navy will have to see an increase in its shipbuilding budget, the head of the service said on Tuesday. “355 in 10? Sure, if we get the dough,” Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Mike Gilday told the audience at the …

news.usni.org

 

[bobbymike]

A 400+ ship Navy? Find out how | Surface Navy 2020

A recent CSBA study discussed how the Navy can expand and transform its surface forces for a future fight in the Pacific. Jeff Martin talks with the authors to find out how.

www.defensenews.com

 

[bring_it_on]

CNO Gilday Calls for Budget Increase to Reach 355 Ship Fleet; New Battle Force Count Won’t Include Unmanned Ships - USNI News

ARLINGTON, Va. – If the nation wants a 355-ship fleet in the next decade, the Navy will have to see an increase in its shipbuilding budget, the head of the service said on Tuesday. “355 in 10? Sure, if we get the dough,” Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Mike Gilday told the audience at the …

news.usni.org

Obama had a 308 ship goal which Maybus upped to 355 with the 2016 FSA. The Trump administration started with 350+ and now we have 357. All this appears to be mostly talk. Unless they buy more Destroyers, more Frigates, and more Submarines within annual budgets it is highly unlikely we ever go beyond 315-320 or so as a best case scenario. Without an increase in budgets you have to make cuts either in the type of ships you buy or in readiness. Thankfully, the CNO seems to have drawn the line and is not prepared to gut readiness to buy more ships..though that will be the option that would appeal the most to politicians so it remains to be seen whether this position changes. The other alternative is to buy different classes..Less carriers for more destroyers etc etc etc. Short of a budget increase those are the only options I see..

 

[aonestudio]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1220592132924166146

 

[bobbymike]

Navy Hints at Cuts to Submarine Force-Level Goal

Navy Hints at Cuts to Submarine Force-Level Goal

www.nationaldefensemagazine.org

 

[bobbymike]

Navy Needs 'Distributed' Fleet, Says Acting Secretary—Hints At Fewer Carriers

A question mark hangs over the future role and numbers of U.S. aircraft carriers the Acting Secretary of the ...

m.theepochtimes.com

 

[jsport]

Navy Needs 'Distributed' Fleet, Says Acting Secretary—Hints At Fewer Carriers

A question mark hangs over the future role and numbers of U.S. aircraft carriers the Acting Secretary of the ...

m.theepochtimes.com

If carriers can't carry multipurpose conventional stealth aircraft (specops transport, manned tanker, c2/AWACS, medium bomber versions ) and a stealth tactical bomber like the A-12 w/ large internal bay then many carriers could be replaced w/ a ship like the Mission Essential Unit V/TOL cruiser/carrier.

 

[Moose]

Carriers can carry a more diverse and flexible airwing, but only if the Navy buys the aircraft.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Navy Needs 'Distributed' Fleet, Says Acting Secretary—Hints At Fewer Carriers

A question mark hangs over the future role and numbers of U.S. aircraft carriers the Acting Secretary of the ...

m.theepochtimes.com

...as he said the force will shift to a fleet that relies less on the military muscle of large ships.

Why do I get a bad feeling about this...

 

[bobbymike]

Achieving Mass with Fewer Forces

The missile age may require a different approach to strategic concentration.

www.usni.org

 

[Grey Havoc]

To Deter China, the Naval Services Must Integrate - War on the Rocks

Change on the scale envisioned by the National Defense Strategy isn’t always easy, or pretty. Observers of American strategy often wonder how the United

warontherocks.com

 

[Grey Havoc]

Esper backs a bigger Navy fleet, but moves to cut shipbuilding by 20 percent

The U.S. Navy's fiscal 2021 budget request includes a Columbia-class submarine and a cut to shipbuilding.

www.defensenews.com

Defense Secretary Mark Esper on how the Navy can get to 355 ships

In an exclusive interview with Defense News, Secretary of Defense Mark Esper makes the case of how and why the Navy can hit 355 ships by 2030.

www.defensenews.com

A bigger, but much lighter, naval force he says. Has he learned nothing from the disaster of LCS to name but one. Ye Gods.

 

[Moose]

And backs cutting the shipbuilding topline. Ye gods, have none of them learned anything?

 

[Grey Havoc]

The US Navy wants more ships but can’t afford them, admiral says

The Navy's plan would add just 11 ships to the battle force over the next five years.

www.defensenews.com

 

[fredymac]

I guess an LHA with F-35s fits the definition of this thread. 7th Fleet, Phillipine and East China Seas.

Impressive to see a flight deck packed with aircraft that should have never been built.

 

[bobbymike]

Massive Fleet Changes Loom As Navy Briefs SecDef Esper

“Congress can’t want a bigger and stronger fleet more than the Navy and Marine Corps want a bigger and stronger fleet,” Rep. Mike Gallagher, a member of the House Armed Services Committee, said today. “There’s a lot of confusion about the budget.”

breakingdefense.com