Sukhoi FSW Fighters from S-22 / S-32 to S-37 / Su-47 Berkut

[Matej]

Eh, my formulation was not exact. I wanted to say that it was first public photo of soviet/russian FSW fighter that time under development, so something from S-32 family, not exactly S-32/Su-27KM.

 

[flateric]

Yes, that's the fact) Two guys were heavily *%^*%& for this leak. But, it's Navy fighter obviously with arresting hook...with absolutely non-Navy colors...

 

[flateric]

More SLM-32(?) free-flight scale model tests pics. Vertical tails are outward canted here...

 

[paralay]

New weapons bay on S-37.
Missiles of such a length (4.6 - 4.7 meters) still do not exist, I assume that it is made for a new long-range missile, Izdeliye (Article) 800

« … In the long-range missile area, Vympel performs modernization of R-37 missile. In the context of the project, on the competitive basis, new Izdeliye 810 is developedon the basis of a Izdeliye 610M. This missile is aimed for internal carriage. Range is increased in factor of 1,5, a projectedd maximum altitude of flight is up 40 km. An operating time of the engine is 360 seconds. IOC is planned for 2013. »

 

[flateric]

Idea of stacking missiles several rows are no-no - just one row there, and intakes do not make such convulsions to make a room for the bay... May be they put something large diameter there ... 800 mockups? It's easier to build such weird bulb to feet larger diameter missiles whose project has appeared much later that S-37 design.

Damn, Paralay, I just now inderstand that there are 3 new pics of the NEW bay at your site http://paralay.com/s37.html ! Wow...don't you think that this weapon bulb ideally feets between some aircraft engine nacelles?

Lower photo (c) Dmitriy Pichugin - Russian AviaPhoto Team
Original photo http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1225052/L/

 

[lantinian]

Wow...don't you think that this weapon bulb ideally feets between some aircraft engine nacelles?

Y.-.3

So, thats a test mock up? If this container also fits PAK-FA, then they might still be using the Su-47 test bed. It can take the damm big container up to full speed and maneuvering performance. Nice.

 

[paralay]

Damn, Paralay, I just now inderstand that there are 3 new pics of the NEW bay at your site...

" It is necessary to meet is more often! "

 

[flateric]

'FSW Mafia' - Pogosyan, Korotkov and Simonov - near S-37 cockpit

 

[hesham]

Hi,

and from Flightglobal S-32 and early design;

http://www.flightglobal.com/PDFArchive/View/1996/1996%20-%203278.html

 

[Merv_P]

...and weren't these guys pleased to see it...?

 

[frank]

Who's to say they weren't planning new Navy colors? The Navy MiGs & Sukhois weren't exactly 'standard' colors either. (Dark blue over dark green, ala Yak-38.)

Yes, that's the fact) Two guys were heavily *%^*%& for this leak. But, it's Navy fighter obviously with arresting hook...with absolutely non-Navy colors...

 

[flateric]

Short but still impressive Su-47 video with some rarely seen views
http://narod.ru/disk/615608000/C.37.avi.html

 

[hesham]

Hi,

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/lesser-known-experimental-aircraft-12754-3.html

 

[fightingirish]

Hi folks, I just found these pictures of a modified FSW Sukhoi modell at militaryphotos.net
I can't tell, if it is a version of the C-32 (Su-27KM) or of the Su-47.
Please notice the different intakes, radom, canopy and some other changes.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=70036&d=1236707939
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=70037&d=1236707939

 

[Matej]

I particularly like this trapezoidal air intakes. And the forward fuselage seems to be too long - its not very usefull design for a carrier based aircraft (if it is CBA of course). Great find fightingirish.

 

[OM]

...The site where the C-32 mesh is available for download has a ton of other meshes, but they're formatted in something called "bCad". Anyone have an idea what "bCad" is, and whether there's a converter that'll at least save it to an OBJ file if not a 3DS or LWO file?

 

[airman]

but which the benefits of inverted wings ?

 

[Triton]

but which the benefits of inverted wings ?

Wikipedia had this to say about the advantages of the swept-forward wing of the Sukhoi Su-47 Berkut:

The swept-forward wing, compared to a swept-back wing of the same area, provides a number of advantages:

• higher lift-to-drag ratio
• higher capacity in dogfight maneuvers
• higher range at subsonic speed
• improved stall resistance and anti-spin characteristics
• improved stability at high angles of attack
• a lower minimum flight speed
• a shorter take-off and landing distance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-47

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I'm not sure Wikipedia is always the best source for factual information ;D

There's a good quote about FSW I can't quite remember to the effect that every few decades the concept is dusted off and tried out to remind everyone why it was such a bad idea.

 

[Spring]

Hi folks, I just found these pictures of a modified FSW Sukhoi modell at militaryphotos.net
I can't tell, if it is a version of the C-32 (Su-27KM) or of the Su-47.
Please notice the different intakes, radom, canopy and some other changes.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=70036&d=1236707939
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=70037&d=1236707939

Almost any aircraft can be "tweaked" to meed low RCS requirements (of course, this has to do a lot with the configuration) ,the same was done for the f-22/23, not a surprise to see a "stealthy" berkut, but is always nice to watch the concepts

What i doubt is the use of the rectangular exhausts (on the original drawings), since the russians/soviets don't/didn't have a lot of expertice dealing with such systems, and russians will prefer 2 degrees of freedom exhausts (the wrongly called 3d exhausts), check the model in the photo, seems it has conventional rounded exhausts, i think the one on the picture is more realist than the one on the drawings

 

[Matej]

I just recall the information that I received more than 10 years ago:

In 1982 American spy satellites found in the soviet test navy base Saki (Krym) the new airplane with the forward swept wing, that "had a lot of similarities with the OKB Sukhoi's construction philosophy". It was designated Syb-A according to the nearby town Siberskij. The photographs were never published to the general public.

Now I started to speculate, if it was somehow related to the Su-27KM (mock-up or so), because during that time, they tested there the jump ramp for the new aircraft carriers 1143.5 and 1143.6 (Kuznecov, Leonid Breznev, Tbilisi). So there were also the rumours in that time, that it was the new 5th generation fighter for the proposed carrier 1143.7 (Uljanovsk class). Other speculation says, that it was just some extended experiment with the FSW Su-9.

 

[flateric]

In 1982 American spy satellites found in the soviet test navy base Saki (Krym) the new airplane with the forward swept wing, that "had a lot of similarities with the OKB Sukhoi's construction philosophy". It was designated Syb-A according to the nearby town Siberskij.

Matej, this is usual Cold War era BS, concocted up to unexisting town name (Siberskij - it's just like call town in Florida "Alaskian"), looking as funny as "Marko Alexandrovich Ramius"

 

[hesham]

Hi,

also early imagination from Flightglobal to Sukhoi S-32;
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1997/1997%20-%200957.html

 

[Tuomasn]

I just recall the information that I received more than 10 years ago:

In 1982 American spy satellites found in the soviet test navy base Saki (Krym) the new airplane with the forward swept wing, that "had a lot of similarities with the OKB Sukhoi's construction philosophy". It was designated Syb-A according to the nearby town Siberskij. The photographs were never published to the general public.

Now I started to speculate, if it was somehow related to the Su-27KM (mock-up or so), because during that time, they tested there the jump ramp for the new aircraft carriers 1143.5 and 1143.6 (Kuznecov, Leonid Breznev, Tbilisi). So there were also the rumours in that time, that it was the new 5th generation fighter for the proposed carrier 1143.7 (Uljanovsk class). Other speculation says, that it was just some extended experiment with the FSW Su-9.

Part correct and part wrong. There most probably was a "SYB-A" (or actually "SIB-A") related to Su-27KM and S-32, but it was not "found" at Saki, but at the SibNIA test airfield at Novosibirsk, and it wasn't a modified Su-9 or a mock-up, but the air-dropped scale model SLM-22/32 seen at http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,422.msg2773.html#msg2773.

This looks like a typical secret project/intelligence information mix-up, where partially known facts are mixed with incorrect speculations (another good example would be early stealth design impressions).

An interesting old related discussion from post #11 on at http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=22605.

 

[Matej]

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Matej]

Finally - a big article on Su-27KM that appeared by efforts of my friend Vadim Lukashevich in November issue of PopSci Russian Edition
http://paralay.com/su27km.html

Does this mean that the mysterious FSW single engine fighter is the S-22 and it belongs to the early 80s? Now I am confused a bit.

 

[flateric]

It's a caption from Russian Polular Mechanics edition. Should be taken with a *giant* grain of salt.
"No one ever saw so-called S-22 project with FSW. But TSAGI has wind tunnell model, that _looks surprisingly close_ to it_".
Huh...I never saw something, but you look damn close to it...

 

[Matej]

I spent dozens of minutes by comparing the details and I came to the conclusion, that on the both photographs is the same model, or at least the two models with the identical configuration and painting.

 

[Matej]

Part correct and part wrong. There most probably was a "SYB-A" (or actually "SIB-A") related to Su-27KM and S-32, but it was not "found" at Saki, but at the SibNIA test airfield at Novosibirsk, and it wasn't a modified Su-9 or a mock-up, but the air-dropped scale model SLM-22/32 seen at http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,422.msg2773.html#msg2773.

I just realized that SYB-A is reffered from 1982 and the SLM-22 model was created in period from 1986 to 1990 and tested in 1991-92. This does not fit.

 

[Tuomasn]

I just realized that SYB-A is reffered from 1982 and the SLM-22 model was created in period from 1986 to 1990 and tested in 1991-92. This does not fit.

Referred where?

 

[Matej]

About SLM-22 here: http://www.khai.edu/niipfm/english/slm22-en.htm
About SYB-A everywhere: http://www.google.sk/#hl=sk&q="SYB-A"+FSW&meta=&aq=f&oq="SYB-A"+FSW&fp=8734b2c95adbb28c

As far as I was able to find, the year 1982 for the SYB-A probably originated in article The strange case of the Royal Eagle by Piotr Butowski. However from my scan of the article it is unclear, where it was published (on pages 18 - 23 if it helps). Now I better understood the people that are very skeptical about the whole existence of the SYB-A.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

"The strange case of the Royal Eagle" was published in World Air Power Journal Fall 1998

 

[Tuomasn]

About SLM-22 here: http://www.khai.edu/niipfm/english/slm22-en.htm
About SYB-A everywhere: http://www.google.sk/#hl=sk&q=%22SYB-A%22+FSW&meta=&aq=f&oq=%22SYB-A%22+FSW&fp=8734b2c95adbb28c

As far as I was able to find, the year 1982 for the SYB-A probably originated in article The strange case of the Royal Eagle by Piotr Butowski. However from my scan of the article it is unclear, where it was published (on pages 18 - 23 if it helps). Now I better understood the people that are very skeptical about the whole existence of the SYB-A.

I was a bit unclear, I was specifically referring to the year 1982 for SYB-A. Unfortunately I don't have that Butowski's article, however I think the web pages are just quoting each other. I simply find it quite unlikely there really was some Sukhoi demonstrator in 1982 and the SLM-22 would provide a more plausible explanation. Still it is of course also possible the SYB-A designation itself never really existed.
However, until someone reveals a hitherto unknown Soviet FSW demonstrator from the early 1980s, or we get to see some declassified intelligence documents about a S[Y/I]B-A, we can only speculate.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Recent information from US sources alleges that as early as 1982, i.e. two years before the maiden flight of the Grumman X-29 (America's well known FSW technology demonstrator), US satellites photographed a similar aircraft at Saki (Syberski) air base in the Crimea (now part of the Ukraine). This mystery machine was reportedly a single engined experimental FSW design, built by Sukhoi. The aircraft, codenamed "Syb-A" (for Syberski), was until recently quite unknown and no photographs of it have been seen in public. Several Russian sources are sceptical that it ever existed. They point to its supposed location at Saki, the Soviet naval aviation test centre. In August 1982 Saki hosted the ski-jump take-off trials of the MiG-27, MiG-29, Su-25 and Su-27. It is very doubtful that any tests of such a radical new aircraft could have been carried out at the same time, given the very early stage of Soviet naval aviation ambitions and experience at that time.

Quote in context of the article.

 

[Matej]

Just for reference: I didn't find any mention of the SYB-A in the Jefim Gordon's book Mikoyan MFI and Sukhoi S-37. But I have only paper copy, so there is still the possibility that I missed it.

I also tried to do some educated guess (the best thing that we can do now) about the connection between the single engined FSW model and the S-22, based on the comparison of the construction details and the design philosophy with the known types. My idea was to compare technical solutions (air intakes, exhaust nozzles, shape of the wing, canards, forward fuselage, wing apex, etc...) with the known types to at least determine, if the FSW model belongs to 80s or 90s. Results are inconclusive. For example the shape and the aerodynamic ideas around the air intakes suggests connection to the Su-27KM (means 80s), while the rear part of the fuselage suggests early 90s. This approach works very good for example with the single engined attack S-37/Su-37 fighter, but not that much with the FSW model. It simply has too many unique solutions. This is why I asked here: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,46.0/highlight,r179-300.html, if somebody knows the exact starting date of the R179-300 development. It can suggests something.

 

[Matej]

Can this be the original Su-47 cockpit? Found here, no source mentioned: http://www.zonamilitar.com.ar/foros/showthread.php?p=507175

 

[flateric]

Matej, no
I have cockpit photos from authentic 1/10 model, it's different AFAIR, and painted in that light-blue VVS color.
Wait till the evening.

 

[Matej]

I know, I have those photos. As you probably remember, we changed our archives several times ) I'm just wondering because the lack of (expected) MFDs and the control stick in the middle puzzled me. So is there any clue which cockpit is in the photo?

 

[Trident]

Not sure, but it looks very McDonnell Douglas-ish.

 

[Evil Flower]

It's the X-31.