Société Provençale de Constructions Aéronautiques

Apophenia

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Société Provençale de Constructions Aéronautiques Designations - 1925-1934

The Société Provençale de Constructions Aéronautiques seems to have used two, concurrent designation systems. The first was a simple Modèle number (using roman numerals). The second used arabic numerals. Neither system seems to have been strictly chronological (or, if they were, it was based on time of design rather than airframe completion).

In fairly typical French fashion, major SPCA design model numbers advanced in tens. Minor model variations changed only the second digit. SPCA routinely applied a 'T' suffix to transport designs. Note that SPCA 30 M.4 is an AdlA designation ('M' for Multiplace de combat, '4' for Quatriplace) rather than an SPCA-applied suffix.

Designation anomalies are: the Paulhan-Pillard T.3 floatplane, the Météore 63, and the seemingly unnumbered Hermès (unless, like its cancelled military derivative, Hermès was also designated Modèle V/SPCA 50).

The Type E-5 was an alternative designation for the SPCA 10 -- parasol monoplane trimotor flying boat with Warren truss bracing on Consolidated-style stabilizing floats. So why were two different arabic numeral designations applied?

NB: The E-5 was connected with the earlier Météore 63 in a Popular Aviation article posted by Stargazer2006!
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4023.msg181468.html#msg181468 ]

Société Provençale de Constructions Aéronautiques Modèle Numbers

SPCA I ---- For Modèle I, see SPCA 10
SPCA II --- For Modèle II, see SPCA 20
SPCA III -- For Modèle III, see SPCA 30
SPCA IV --- For Modèle IV, see SPCA 60
SPCA V ---- For Modèle V, see SPCA 50
SPCA VI --- For Modèle VI, [?? perhaps SPCA 70 ??]
SPCA VII -- For Modèle VII, see SPCA 40 series
SPCA VIII - For Modèle VIII, see SPCA 80 series
SPCA IX --- For Modèle IX, see SPCA 90 series

Société Provençale de Constructions Aéronautiques Designation Anomolies/Naming Confusions

SPCA 218 and 218/2 - modified SPCA Modèle VII/SPCA 40T (qv)

SPCA Paulhan-Pillard I - aka 1928 SPCA 10/SPCA Modèle I

SPCA Hermès - aka SPCA 60T (qv) aka SPCA Type IV

SPCA Météore 63 - 1925 6 passenger trimotor biplane flying boat, 3 x built
- Météore 63: 3 x 180 hp Hispano-Suiza 8Ac V-8s, span (top wing) 21.20m
- Météore 63: fabric-covered wooden const., 3 x 180 hp Hispano-Suiza 8Ac V-8s
-- NB: 1927 to Air-Union Lignes d'Orient for use on their Beirut to Saigon route
-- There is no obvious SPCA numerical designation for the Météore 63s
-- 3v: http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/flyboat/spca63/spca63-1.gif

SPCA Paulhan-Pillard T.3 - 1928 twin-engine torpedo/night bomber floatplane, x 2
- SPCA Paulhan-Pillard T.3: Twin-float low-wing cantilever monoplane seaplane
-- Paulhan-Pillard T.3 was first all-metal construction floatplane built in France
- SPCA Paulhan-Pillard T.3: 2 x 420 hp G-R 9 Jupiter radials, span 26.00 m
-- Thick wings, open side-by-side cockpit, open nose & dorsal gunner positions
- SPCA Paulhan-Pillard T.3: 1st prototype, crashed La Ciotat harbour, 02 Aug 1928
- SPCA Paulhan-Pillard T.3: 2nd prototype, 1930, 3-blade prop (inst. of 4-bladed)
-- One source also lists 650 hp Hispano-Suiza engines in place of Jupiters*
-- * This may represent confusion between T3 and SPCA 60T/Type IV Hermès
-- NB: Paulhan-Pillard T.3 was designed by Marcel Pillard, built by Louis Paulhan
-- http://www.flickr.com/photos/runway27r/2910096405/ photo
-- http://www.navtechlife.com/Images level 3/2 Naval Aviation Seaplanes and Flying boats/small_SPCA Paulhan-Pillard T3 103022.jpg

Société Provençale de Constructions Aéronautiques SPCA Numbers

SPCA 10 - 1928 trimotor parasol monoplane patrol flying boat, x 1
- SPCA 10: 5-seat maritime patrol parasol 'boat w/ outrigger floats
- SPCA 10: 3 x 420 hp Gnome-Rhône 9Ac tractor radials, span 28.15 m
-- aka SPCA I; Modèle I; Paulhan-Pillard I; PP10; Type 10; E-5*
-- * E-5 designation = 'E' for Exploration + cinq places (5-seat)
-- NB: Some sources confused SPCA 10/Paulhan-Pillard I with the T3
-- 3v: http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/flyboat/spca10/spca10-1.gif

SPCA 20 - 1928 Modèle II 2-engined low-wing monoplane seaplane, x 2
- SPCA 20: 4-seat, twin-float torpedo/nighter bomber, metal constr.
- SPCA 20: 2 x 480 hp Gnome-Rhône 9Ae radials, span 26.22 m
-- aka SPCA II; SPCA Modèle II; aka Paulhan-Pillard 20; aka PP20
-- aka Paulhan-Pillard T.3 = 'T' for torpilleur + trois places*
-- * Both rebuilt to Bn.4 = Bombardiers de nuit + quatre places

SPCA 30 - 1931 twin-boomed, twin-engined multiplace de combat, x 2
- SPCA 30 : Open cockpit, open gun positions in nose and both booms
- SPCA 30 M.4: 2 x inline engines (see prototypes, below); span 26.50 m
-- SPCA 30 M.4 desig. = Multiplace de combat + quatre places
- SPCA 30 M.4: 1st prototype, 2 x 650 hp Lorraine-Dietrich 18Kd W-18s
- SPCA 30 M.4: 2nd prototype, 2 x 650 hp Hispano-Suiza 12N V-12s
-- SPCA 30 M.4: aka SPCA III ; aka Modèle III; aka SPCA Type 30

SPCA 40 - 1929 metal trimotor high-wing monoplane mail plane
- SPCA 40: 2 of 3 engines podded under cantilever wings
- SPCA 40: Avion postal, fixed spatted main u/c, span 20.00 m
- 40T: 1929, 3 x 120 hp Salmson 9Ac 9-cyl. radials, 2 x built
- 41T: 1931, 3 x 135 hp Salmson 9Nc 9-cyl. radials, 1x built
-- SPCA 40T and 41T both aka SPCA Modèle VII
-- http://saharayro.free.fr/fwauthier1.htm SPCA 41T specs
- 218: 1932, 2 x 40T conv. to 41T standards, re-eng. w/ Salmson 9Ncs
-- 218: F-AKDY & F-AKDZ, used by CTA (Compagnie Transafricaine d'Aviation)
-- http://www.stampnotes.com/Today_in_Postal_History/073134.html photo
-- 218/2: 218 modified to increase range (from 425 km to 1,075 km)
- 42 : (Project) 1935, wind-tunnel tested, no other details
- 42T: (Project) 1935, wind-tunnel tested, no other details
- 43 : Higher-powered SPCA 41T as sanitaire (ambulance); x 1
- 43 : To 1931 Col.3 transport; 3 x 300 hp Gnome & Rhône (7Kb?

SPCA 50 - (Project) 193? twin-engine scout-recce flying boat, abandoned 1933
- SPCA 50: For programme des hydavions eclaireurs et de grande reconnaissance
- SPCA 50: 2 x (??) hp (type?) engines, span 29.12 m, no other details
-- NB: SPCA 50 design led to civil SCPA 60T Hermès prototype (below)

SPCA 60 - 1932 twin-engined civilian transport seaplane transport, x 1
- SPCA 60T: 2 x 650 hp Hispano-Suiza 12Nbr V-12s,* span 29.12 m
-- * Twin HS 12Nbr V-12s were mounted in a tandem, push-pull pair
- SPCA 60T: 'T' for Transport; airframe proved structurally weak
- SPCA 60T: aka Hermès; aka SPCA Type IV; aka E-7; aka PP60

SPCA 70 - [Project] trimotor 'pack plane' SPCA 30 deriv, 3 x 230 hp Salmson
- SPCA 70: Medevac config., 6 x litter cases or 12 x seated wounded/injured
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4023.0.html

SPCA 80 - 1932 police coloniale a/c, high-wing cantilever monoplane, 15m span
- SPCA 80: 2 crew + 4 pax, 1 x 300 hp Gnome-Rhône 7Kb, 1 built (F-AKFH)
- SPCA 81: 2nd version, 1 x Lorraine-Dietrich 9Na Algol radial, 1 built
- SPCA 82: 1934 conv. of SPCA 81 prototype to 1 x 350 hp Renault 9Ca radial

SPCA 90 - police coloniale a/c, high-wing cantilever monoplane, 22.35m span
-- SPCA IX/90 submitted for 1930 Col 3 contest
- SPCA 90 : 1932, 3 x 350 hp 350 hp Gnome-Rhône 7Kd radials (uncowled)
-- NB: Despite some medevac use, no evidence of an 'SPCA 90S' designation
- SPCA 91T: 1934 civil transport, enlarged cabin (8 pax + baggage & toilet)
 
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Once again, some very nice and useful research. Thanks a lot, Apophenia!
 
As usual my dear Apophenia,perfect;


SPCA 91T: was an airliner version,the cargo area was fitted out as a passenger cabin
with seats for eight passengers.
 
Thanks Hesham. I've added the SPCA 91T. Was this a slight variation on the SPCA 90T airliner? Or a designation?
 
My dear Apophenia,


here is the SPCA 91T Info;


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPCA_90
 
Thanks for that Hesham. I think that '90T' must have have been my transcription error.
 
From l'Aeronautique 12/1934,here is the SPCA VIII & IX designation.
 

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Thanks Hesham. I've added the SPCA VIII/SPCA 80 and SPCA IX/SPCA 90.

A machine translation of your clipping goes something like this:

"SPCA colonial aircraft, VIII and IX, demonstrated a remarkable resilliance. We recall that the IX was able to land despite breaking an engine mount with resulting structural damage from the propeller.

The SPCA VIII and IX are currently in service in Morocco. Also recall that two SPCA VII link Broken Hill with Tananarive; the Company might be called upon to built two or three new
aircraft of this type."

The Broken Hill-Tananarive refers to the SPCA 41Ts of Régie Malagache aka Service de la Navigation Aérienne de Madagascar (SNAM).

In July 1934, Régie Malagache began air mail flights from Broken Hill in Northern Rhodesia to Tananarive in Madagascar via Portuguese East Africa (Mozambique).

Encyclopedia of African Airlines, Ben R. Guttery, pg 115

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1934/1934%20-%200456.html
 
Hi all,

I discovered that,Mr. Louis Paulhan and Mr. Marcel Pillard had anther series,and I will
try to track it;

HC-1 was a racer seaplane with float Project,powered by Farman engine
H-2 was a four engined transatlantic flying boat Project of 1928,called Neptune
T-3 was a twin-engined, twin-float low-wing monoplane torpedo bomber seaplane,well known Type-20
H-4 was a four engined transatlantic monoplane seaplane Project of 1931
E-5 was a three engined parasol monoplane,recce and bomber seaplane,well known Type-10
E-6 was a three engined cantilever high wing monoplane Project of 1932,recce floatplane
E-7 was a twin engined transport seaplane,a military derivative of Hermes,or Type-60,in 1932/33
H-8 was a three engined transatlantic flying boat Project of 1934
 
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Silencer1 said:
My guess - what if Meteore 63 has been named for "6" passenger and "3" engines?
Just for advertisment purposes?
Click to expand...

No my dear Silencer,

but they took CAMS-31 & CAMS-32 for examples and collected the numbers o be this.

Many thanks to my dear Toura.
 
hesham said:
Hi all,

I discovered that,Mr. Louis Paulhan and Mr. Marcel Pillard had anther series,and I will
try to track it;

HC-1 was a racer seaplane with float Project,powered by Farman engine
H-2 was a four engined transatlantic flying boat Project of 1928,called Neptune
T-3 was a twin-engined, twin-float low-wing monoplane torpedo bomber seaplane,well known Type-20
H-4 was a four engined transatlantic monoplane seaplane Project of 1931
E-5 was a three engined parasol monoplane,recce and bomber seaplane,well known Type-10
E-6 was a three engined cantilever high wing monoplane Project of 1932,recce floatplane
E-7 was a twin engined transport seaplane,a military derivative of Hermes,or Type-60
H-8 was a three engined transatlantic flying boat Project of 1934
Click to expand...

Some of those Projects were mentioned in Ailes Journal,can anyone explain
where is that exactly in the site Gallica ?.
 
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Thanks hesham. The SPCA 218/2 has now been added ... and I took the opportunity to update/correct the list more generally.

Going back to your Reply #16 and another Paulhan/Pillard designation sequence. I think the designation E-5 is revealing. Since this was a early designation for the Paulhan-Pillard I (aka the SPCA Modèle II, which later becomes the SPCA 10), we can assume that your list refers to temporary (possibly pre-construction) designations.

Going out on a limb, I would guess that E was for Étude; H was for Hydravion, T was for Torpiller ... but MR ?
 
Dear Apophenia,

the MR was for marine racer,but I want to know the numbers 1,2,4 & 8 were from my guess only,but
they already existed,in TU magazine is a reference to them with their date,but with no designation
numbers,so I assumed that,also the No.8 was mentioned in a French book.
 
From, Le_Génie_civil___revue_[...]_bpt6k6488373s,

the SPAC-41.
 

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hesham said:
Hi all,

I discovered that,Mr. Louis Paulhan and Mr. Marcel Pillard had anther series,and I will
try to track it;

HC-1 was a racer seaplane with float Project,powered by Farman engine
H-2 was a four engined transatlantic flying boat Project of 1928,called Neptune
T-3 was a twin-engined, twin-float low-wing monoplane torpedo bomber seaplane,well known Type-20
H-4 was a four engined transatlantic monoplane seaplane Project of 1931
E-5 was a three engined parasol monoplane,recce and bomber seaplane,well known Type-10
E-6 was a three engined cantilever high wing monoplane Project of 1932,recce floatplane
E-7 was a twin engined transport seaplane,a military derivative of Hermes,or Type-60,in 1932/33
H-8 was a three engined transatlantic flying boat Project of 1934
Click to expand...

For HC-1,the prefix is only my speculation,what is a proper prefix by French language
for; Racer Marine ?.
 

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hesham said:
Apophenia said:
Just as the title of your attachment says: Hydravion de course (or 'racing seaplane').
Click to expand...

Can we say; HR.1 ?.
Click to expand...

Who knows? There were all kinds of odd designation prefixes at the time - eg: hydravion vitesse (speed seaplane) for the Bernard HV 41. But 'HR' is extremely unlikely. 'HC' would be more plausible ... but still fiction.
 
There is a mistake,

the SPCA 50 Hermes was a civil aircraft,led to develop a military version
called SPCA 60 ?!.
 
hesham said:
There is a mistake,

the SPCA 50 Hermes was a civil aircraft,led to develop a military version
called SPCA 60 ?!.
Click to expand...

Okay, we have an assertion ... but do you have references?

The name Hermès was used more than once by SPCA. The first was the 1928 flying boat (which crashed 08 Jan 1929). No-one seems to be able to apply a designation number to that one. If you are saying that the 1928 'boat was actually the SPCA 50, we need that reputable reference. (As Sagan said, “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”.)

We know that the name Hermès was re-applied to the built SPCA 60T, F-AKEB? It wouldn't be all that strange if that same name had also been re-applied to the unrealized SPCA 50. But, there again, do you have a source which confirms this?

As for the SPCA being a civil type leading to a military version, available online sources all say the reverse. Eg: "S.P.C.A. 50, (type V) une version militaire de l'Hermès". (Source: JN Passieux quoting Aviation, Mars 1969, via fr.bnf.gallica)
 
Dear Apophenia,

I am very confuse,specially there is a two reliable sources,the Aviation magazine and the TU magazine,can you give us the solution ?,here is a translate for the last one;

SPCA IV Type 50 and V Type 60

For the operation of its Marseille-Beirut line, the company Air-Orient
asked the SPCA to study a twin-engine seaplane for him. This took the form of
SPCA IV Type 50, a shell aircraft
twin-engine tandem. He was baptized
"Hermes".

The cantilever monoplane wing has a central part of plan shape
rectangular and two external parts
trapezoidals that carry fins
long and thin. With a thick profile that tapers towards the ends, it has
of a positive dihedral. It is posed on the
shell via a bathtub unit in which
the crew is installed in closed pipe.
Both crew members can
be accompanied by four passengers.
Two lateral floats, close to the hull, are connected to this one and to the wing
by six pairs of parallel profiled masts.
The two Hispano-Suiza 12 Nbr engines
650 hp are installed above the
central part and enclosed in a large
Rectangular fairing. The hull, long
and thin, has two steps and is
ends with a stern post supporting a
horizontal tail plane
trapezoidal guyed by two pairs of
Parallel masts, This horizontal stabilizer carries four vertical fins. The
device structure is metallic.

Built in Marseille and the hull in La
Ciotat, the F-AKEB prototype is in oil
led to La Ciotat for assembly. the
first flight was made on August 1, 1932
by Burri. He immediately noticed that
the engine mounts oscillate sideways
the stronger the higher the speed
vee! This phenomenon does not manifest itself
not at the fixed point, Burri then takes the
engineers from the design office with him
so that they can see the phenomenon first-hand. Faced with the magnitude of it, it is
disassembled to see the
efiective deformation of frames. The device
did not have time to undergo modifications that its abandonment was decided.

This decision led to the judgment in 1933.
of construction of a military derivative called SPCA V Type 60 or Type E-7. It had to respond to the program of the scout and great reconnaissance seaplanes which led to the command of the
Breguet-Short three-engined. Type E-7
uses the Type 50 formula, but in
much finer. It incorporates a new
wing profile and a single vertical fin instead of the four of the Type 50.
Engines have radiators
Lamblin positioned above the power nacelle, at the height of the front engine.
With a wingspan of 30 m, it weighs 10 tonnes on takeoff and 5,400 kg empty. Its surface is
138.4 m2.

 

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Those machine translations are indeed very confusing ... less than half of it is comprehensible. But, TU also seem to have got the military-to-civil derivation back to front. (I would describe TU as a 'highly valuable' resource but question the reliability of their fact-checking and proof-reading ... based on TU's occassionally confused re-tellings of other aircraft types' histories.)

So what else, exactly, is causing you confusion in content? The first clipping implies that the SPCA 50 was also assigned the Hermès. Good to have that confirmed but not too surprising - in light of that same name also having been applied to the 1928 flying boat and to the later SPCA 60T.

On the SPCA 50 being designed at the request of the airline Air Orient. If the SPCA 50 were being designed for a commercial carrier then why was the French state expecting to pay 3,414,00 francs on the SPCA 50 project prior to it being cancelled in 1933.

The simple answer is that SPCA was designed a recce flying boat for the French military when interest was expressed by Air Orient in a follow-on to the SPCA 63 Météore. That military design - the SPCA 50 - was then developed into the civilian SPCA 60T prototype, F-AKEB ... which is pretty much what JN Passieux said.
 
Apophenia said:
The simple answer is that SPCA was designed a recce flying boat for the French military when interest was expressed by Air Orient in a follow-on to the SPCA 63 Météore. That military design - the SPCA 50 - was then developed into the civilian SPCA 60T prototype, F-AKEB ... which is pretty much what JN Passieux said.
Click to expand...
No dear Apophenia,

the oppsite is the right,please read again,

This decision led to the judgment in 1933.
of construction of a military derivative called SPCA V Type 60 or Type E-7. It had to respond to the program of the scout and great reconnaissance seaplanes which led to the command of the
Breguet-Short three-engined.
 
My dear Philippe,

you mentioned two designations for SPCA,the first was Type-43 for Colonial competition of 1930,and the second
for Ambulance contest of 1929,can you tell us more about them,specially the last one,doesn't match or even close
to any known concepts ?!.
 

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hesham said:
My dear Philippe,

you mentioned two designations for SPCA,the first was Type-43 for Colonial competition of 1930,and the second
for Ambulance contest of 1929,can you tell us more about them,specially the last one,doesn't match or even close
to any known concepts ?!.
Click to expand...
The SPCA 43 appears in the list of prototypes ordered in 1931: category colonial, weight around 4T, 3 engines Gnome-Rhône 300 ch.
In the book about Potez, an unknown SPCA ambulance project is listed as concurrent of Potez 42: https://www.aerobiblio.com/les-avions-potez/
 
PhR said:
The SPCA 43 appears in the list of prototypes ordered in 1931: category colonial, weight around 4T, 3 engines Gnome-Rhône 300 ch.
In the book about Potez, an unknown SPCA ambulance project is listed as concurrent of Potez 42: https://www.aerobiblio.com/les-avions-potez/
Click to expand...

Many thanks,but you are right about this,it's so weird ?.
 

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hesham said:
HC-1 was a racer seaplane with float Project,powered by Farman engine
Click to expand...
PhR said:
In the book about Potez, an unknown SPCA ambulance project is listed as concurrent of Potez 42
Click to expand...

I think the only logical estimation is to consider the Ambulance aircraft was a version derivative of this early
project of 1928,HC-1 "Hydravion de Course" ?.
 
hesham said:
I think the only logical estimation is to consider the Ambulance aircraft was a version derivative of this early
project of 1928,HC-1 "Hydravion de Course" ?.
Click to expand...

Whoa! Are you asserting (despite your "?." ending) that "the only logical estimation" must be to subsume an ambulance project with largely unknown attributes into a hydravion de course design 'series' with an entirely hypothetical designation?
 

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