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SNCASO (Sud-Ouest) SO.4060 Super Vautour

TinWing

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Here is Sud-Ouest's proposal for a potential Mirage IVM competitor, the SO4060M. It is not certain whether a final selection had been made by the time the PA58 carrier was cancelled.

The configuration features a conventional swept wing, but there is a very peculiar "wheel" at the rear of the fuselage.

I would suspect that the SO4060M would have been catapulted from the same "nose high" position (with the nose gear lifted completely off the deck ) as the contemporary Blackburn Buccaneer. In the case of the Buccaneer, there was a skid towards the rear of fuselage, not an extra wheel.

Source: Port Avions Francais, by F. Dousset. Paris, 1978.
 

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Antonio

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TinWing,

The configuration features a conventional swept wing, but there is a very peculiar "wheel" at the rear of the fuselage.
According to Docavia "Les avions de combat français" Vol 2 pg 111

The tail wheel authorised the aircraft to apprach the aircraft carrier strip at high incidence if needed without tail damage risk.
 

Archibald

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Well this was a derivative of the successfull Vautour, and a competitor to the various Mirage IV proposal of the late 50's. I'm desesperately seeking three-views and datas about this aircraft... the only drawing I found was on E-bay !!!!!!
PS any info on SO-4000 (crappy bomber of 1951) derivatives such as the SO-4015 would be welcome, too!!
 

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Jemiba

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Not a derivative, but intended as a successor to the SO.4050 Vautour II . The
SO.4000 Vautour was Sud-Ouests first try in the field of the jet bomber, two
fuselage mounted engines with lateral intakes, SO.M1 and 2 were the aerodynamic
testbeds. IIRC the 4015 was an earlier design, that led to the Vautour II, with
podded or underslung engines under the wings. I'll look it up tis evening, if
nobody else is faster .... ;D
 

Archibald

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I must say that my main interest on this thread is the SO-4060... Three-views, derivatives (Aeronavale and the like).

PS. The SO-4060 was a competitor to the Mirage IVA.
But there was a much bigger project, the Mirage IVB (60 tons,
5000 km range). I know that Breguet made a competitor, the Br.1170 (something like an enormous Jaguar) but what about the
SO-4060? was there an enlarged, 70 tons competitor of the Mirage IVB ?
 

Archibald

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More details about performances, dimensions engines and the like?
 

Archibald

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Anybody have details? maybe in "les avions de combats français 1945-1960, chasse lourde / bombardement"... ?
Just want a three-view or picture of this plane TO SEE WHAT IT LOOK LIKE!!!
 

Jemiba

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I haven't found a SO.4060 version, that could be a competitor to the Mirage IVB.
Here are just the versions of the 4060, which are mentioned by Cuny, except the M.
There's no drawing of the Br.1170 in "Les Avions Breguet", just a 3-view of the
1180.
 

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Archibald

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Merci! Merci! merci! merci! :)
This is just fantastic, what I wanted... I have heard about this plane so much times, but never know what it looked like... The Br.1170 was a kind of french F-6D Missileer, i mean a subsonic long range fighter. Two versions were proposed, one with two-unreheated
TF-306, other with one reheated TF-306. There's picture of the single-engine variant in the book...
 

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Archibald

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I heard that a prototypes of the SO-4060 was started but never finished (the plane had priority over the Mirage IV at the beginning)
Anybody knows more?
 

elmayerle

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That tail wheel reminds me a lot of the tail wheels on the SAAB Draken that help prevent over-rotation.
 

Archibald

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Hey there was something similar on the concorde, too. I discovered it recently...
 

Jemiba

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It's not uncommon, look at the Fouga Magister, it has a tail wheel, too.
It's just more prominent, than a tail bumper or a beefed up section of
a fin, which acts as a skid.
 

Sentinel Chicken

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Draken pilots I believe also would use the tailwheel bumper to rotate the aircraft back upon landing, thereby creating a lot of drag and in effect using the entire aircraft as a speedbrake.
 

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I have read this thread with great interest, but also looking for a development of the SO Vautour which was a rival project to the Mystere IV nuclear bomber. I've never seen drawings of this. Can anyone help, please?
 

Jemiba

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I've looked up in the Cuny books, but I can't find a clue, that a direct derivative of
the SO.4050 Vautour (II) was a competitor to the Mirage IV . With the competition,
which led to the Mirage IV France was looking for a supersonic bomber and even
the SO Cyclone, the most advanced deivative of the Vautour was just transsonic, at
its best. But the follow-on development, the SO.4060 was sometimes reffered to as
"Super Vautour". Perhaps you are speaking of this type ?
 

Antonio

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smurf,

I agree with Jemiba that you are probably talking about the SO.4060 which also was the rival proposal for the Mirage IV carrier fighter version.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=35.msg120#msg120
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=35.0;prev_next=next#new

Tonight I'll take a look at my Cuny books too.
 

smurf

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Yes, thanks. You are correct.
I was working from some old Air Pictorial pages, one of which (April 1957) said:
The Sud-Est (sic) S.O.4060.001 supersonic bomber, known as the Super Vautour is scheduled to fly on 15th October, powered by SNECMA Atar G turbojets. Its development as a possible nuclear bomber is from memory and I can't trace my source at the moment, but it would probably be a slightly earlier Air Pic or RAF Flying Review.
 

Archibald

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smurf said:
Yes, thanks. You are correct.
I was working from some old Air Pictorial pages, one of which (April 1957) said:
The Sud-Est (sic) S.O.4060.001 supersonic bomber, known as the Super Vautour is scheduled to fly on 15th October, powered by SNECMA Atar G turbojets. Its development as a possible nuclear bomber is from memory and I can't trace my source at the moment, but it would probably be a slightly earlier Air Pic or RAF Flying Review.
Pometablava, what you say is very interesting. In cuny's book there's picture of the SO-4060 under construction. Now we have the date of its first flight :)
According to cuny, the first prototype of the SO-4060 was drawn around the Atar-101 of 4500 kgp. but the engine of the future was the Atar-9 of 6000 kgp. This would imply a big redesign of the aircraft, achieved on the second prototype only.
Three variants of the SO-4060 were drawn
- long-range fighter for the AdA
- light nuclear bomber for the AdA
- naval fighter
Pictures from the three variants+the prototype with atar-101 are in cuny book. I grouped the pictures in a single one.
enjoy!!
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum/uploads/post-18-1158351589.jpg
 

smurf

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SO 4060
Now we have the date of its first flight
No, sorry, we have the scheduled date of it. I only kept cut out pages from Air Pictorial from the 1950s but I do remember that mention was the last I ever saw. No record of a flight taking place on 15 October or any other date.
 

Archibald

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damned enthusiasm... as you said. SHEDULED... of course the plane never flew because of budget cuts (they afected plenties of aircrafts, SMB-2 and Vautours orders were cut, Trident and Leduc-022 were stopped, the SO-4060 was scrapped without flying, exactly like the ACF 20 years later :( )
 

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Here I have one seem to be belong to Dassult project too. Notice the intake is more similar to Mirage series
 

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Archibald

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This is not a dassault project... It's the SO-4060 Cyclone from a public firm (SNCASO).
This plane was an early competitor of the Mirage IV in the late 50's. A prototype was started but never finished.
 

MIRAGE 4000

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Bonjour friends !

You could find in the last Le Fana the article on the SO 4060 story.
If you have any questions ....

Following the French secret Mach 3/Mach 4 Dassault fighter program ;)
 

Antonio

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Le Fana 455 is another great issue for the "fanatics" with that long awaited SO 4060 feature
(I also love the A-20 article with that Douglas 7A and B drawings and Dassault Falcon 10 part 2)


Congratulations for that great article Mirage 4000 and Alanqua, merci beaucoup!. I never thought that SO 4060 was so complicated family of designs. With the help of Jean Cuny Les Avions de Combat Françaises I have compiled all the variants I have found from both sources. SO 4060 04 it is not included because although it is illustrated in a couple of variants (according to weapon load) I can find it on the text.

My question is: Could you please take a look at the list to confirm if it is right?

Thanks in advance :)

Antonio

(Now I'm waiting for your next article about Mach 3/4 secret projects)
 

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vulture

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Some images of SNCASO (Sud-Ouest) SO.4060 "Super Vautour" - also included are images of the un-finished prototype of "Super Vautour"
:)
 

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Odysseus1980

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Wonderful work with the SO-4060, a really forgotten plane. Does anyone has any specifications?
 

Jemiba

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As promised, from Jean Cuny "Les Avions De Combat Francaise", Tome II the data tables
of the SO.4060 and 4060M
 

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Odysseus1980

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All these info about the SO.4060 Super Vautour are very interesting. However, it seems that there are no specification for her. Does anyone knows something?
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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The article by forum member MIRAGE 4000 in Fana issue 455 has what you want :)
 

JFC Fuller

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My, admittedly very limited, understanding was that a good part of the requirement for this aircraft was to provide a supersonic nuclear strike aircraft for the PA58 aircraft carrier that was also cancelled?
 

dan_inbox

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Odysseus1980 said:
All these info about the SO.4060 Super Vautour are very interesting. However, it seems that there are no specification for her. Does anyone knows something?
It was competing with Mirage IV for the same land-based strategic nuclear deterrence spec. It started as the favorite but Dassault won.
AFAIK there is no trace of naval requirement for either SO-4060 or M-IV.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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dan_inbox said:
Odysseus1980 said:
All these info about the SO.4060 Super Vautour are very interesting. However, it seems that there are no specification for her. Does anyone knows something?
It was competing with Mirage IV for the same land-based strategic nuclear deterrence spec. It started as the favorite but Dassault won.
AFAIK there is no trace of naval requirement for either SO-4060 or M-IV.
Well....

SO 4060 Vatour replacement
SO 4060 01 All-Weather Interceptor
SO 4060M (Marine) Naval fighter-bomber
SO 4060 B Bomber
SO 4060 02 Revised All-Weather Interceptor
SO 4060 02-B Reengined 4060 02
SO 4060 03-B Reengined 4060 02
SO 4060 B New bomber version
SO 4060 N Renamed All-Weather Interceptor
SO 4062 New naval fighter version
SO 4060 B.IV Unmanned Robot Bomber
SO 4060 “Robot” Missile project
SO 4061 Enlarged bomber version
 

dan_inbox

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Yes, I wrote it wrong. It's the PA-58 bit that I wanted to dispell. Let me reword :

There was a air force spec for a nuclear capable land-based bomber, to which SNCASO proposed the 4060 and Dassault the M.IV;

Then when the conseil supérieur de la marine issued the Navy's spec for PA58, it included the Mirage IVM alongside the Jaguar M, not the 4060.
The SO-4060 had already lost credibility in the air force's tender (when the Atar 9 came out) so the M.IV was directly selected for the PA specs. That's how I remember it, even if I don't have the document to check and am willing to be corrected.


Your list is interesting and new to me. But frankly, to me it looks a little bit like a designer's hopeful multiplication of more-or-less realistic versions.
What is its source, please?
 

Kadija_Man

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PaulMM (Overscan) said:
SO 4062 New naval fighter version
SO 4060 B.IV Unmanned Robot Bomber
SO 4060 “Robot” Missile project
SO 4061 Enlarged bomber version
Any pictures?
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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dan_inbox said:
Yes, I wrote it wrong. It's the PA-58 bit that I wanted to dispell. Let me reword :

There was a air force spec for a nuclear capable land-based bomber, to which SNCASO proposed the 4060 and Dassault the M.IV;

Then when the conseil supérieur de la marine issued the Navy's spec for PA58, it included the Mirage IVM alongside the Jaguar M, not the 4060.
The SO-4060 had already lost credibility in the air force's tender (when the Atar 9 came out) so the M.IV was directly selected for the PA specs. That's how I remember it, even if I don't have the document to check and am willing to be corrected.


Your list is interesting and new to me. But frankly, to me it looks a little bit like a designer's hopeful multiplication of more-or-less realistic versions.
What is its source, please?
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,35.msg21512.html#msg21512

It's compiled from information in Jean Cuny / Les Avions De Combat Francais, 1944-1960 II - Chasse Lourde, Bombardement Assaut,Exploration and the Fana de L'Aviation article by Alexis Rocher. Both are based on research from primary sources, and I have both here.
 
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