Sikorsky CH-148 Thread

[helmutkohl]

Didn't really see a thread on this so here we go!
I guess its not so popular because only Canada operates it..
but why they chose this instead of more Merlins is beyond me...

82% grounded due to cracks

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/rcaf-grounds-cyclone-helicopters-cracks-1.6273953

 

[riggerrob]

Canadian defense purchases are a confusing process that baffles even long-serving military members. It does not help that the poor bloody infantry/pilot/sailor is "priority last" in many defense purchases.
I bent wrenches on Canadian Sea King helicopters between 1979 and 1985. They served more than 50 years, from 163 to 2018. Even back during the late 1970s, the Canadian Armed Forces were mumbling about buying replacement helicopters. Unfortunately, Sikorsky quit building Sea Kings back during the late 1970s.
The idea for the S-92/CH-148 sparked when some Canadian air crew visited the Sikorsky factory circa 1983. After a tour and sales pitch on the S-40 Sea hawk, the Canadians replied "That is nice, but the cabin is not big enough for our admiral's barge ... er ... cross-decking the padre on Sunday mornings ... er ... rescue role." Sikorsky salesmen chuckled and waved goodbye to their guests. But the idea stuck and a few years later, Sikorsky announced that they were developing an SH-60 variant with a larger fuselage hanging under a larger-diameter SH-60 rotor system. The S-92 has a rear cargo ramp and resembles that of military cargo helicopters like CH-53, EH-101, NH-90, S-61R, etc. Sikorsky first sold a few S-92s to the off-shore oil industry who used them to transport crews to off-shore oil rigs.
Meanwhile, a European consortium was developing the EH-101 to replace Sea Kings in Italian and British service. The CAF announced that they wanted to buy EH-101s as Sea King replacements, but that deal was squashed when Jean Chretien's Federal Liberal Party got elected in 1993. Cancellation costs were huge! Meanwhile, the RCAF quietly bought a batch of EH-101s for their search and rescue role. We still see EH-101 Cormorants flying along the West Coast.
After the Eh-101 debacle, politicians dithered until 2004 when Sikorsky got a contract to build 24 CH-148 Cyclone helicopters for the RCAF. Repeated delays saw the first CH-148s only delivered in 2015. Even so, the first batch lacked critical anti-submarine software, etc. CH-148's primary role is anti-submarine launching from the flight decks of RCN frigates.

 

[Devin]

Canadian defense purchases are a confusing process that baffles even long-serving military members. It does not help that the poor bloody infantry/pilot/sailor is "priority last" in many defense purchases.
I bent wrenches on Canadian Sea King helicopters between 1979 and 1985. They served more than 50 years, from 163 to 2018. Even back during the late 1970s, the Canadian Armed Forces were mumbling about buying replacement helicopters. Unfortunately, Sikorsky quit building Sea Kings back during the late 1970s.
The idea for the S-92/CH-148 sparked when some Canadian air crew visited the Sikorsky factory circa 1983. After a tour and sales pitch on the S-40 Sea hawk, the Canadians replied "That is nice, but the cabin is not big enough for our admiral's barge ... er ... cross-decking the padre on Sunday mornings ... er ... rescue role." Sikorsky salesmen chuckled and waved goodbye to their guests. But the idea stuck and a few years later, Sikorsky announced that they were developing an SH-60 variant with a larger fuselage hanging under a larger-diameter SH-60 rotor system. The S-92 has a rear cargo ramp and resembles that of military cargo helicopters like CH-53, EH-101, NH-90, S-61R, etc. Sikorsky first sold a few S-92s to the off-shore oil industry who used them to transport crews to off-shore oil rigs.
Meanwhile, a European consortium was developing the EH-101 to replace Sea Kings in Italian and British service. The CAF announced that they wanted to buy EH-101s as Sea King replacements, but that deal was squashed when Jean Chretien's Federal Liberal Party got elected in 1993. Cancellation costs were huge! Meanwhile, the RCAF quietly bought a batch of EH-101s for their search and rescue role. We still see EH-101 Cormorants flying along the West Coast.
After the Eh-101 debacle, politicians dithered until 2004 when Sikorsky got a contract to build 24 CH-148 Cyclone helicopters for the RCAF. Repeated delays saw the first CH-148s only delivered in 2015. Even so, the first batch lacked critical anti-submarine software, etc. CH-148's primary role is anti-submarine launching from the flight decks of RCN frigates.

Slight correction. The contract is for 28 Cyclones. One of the problems of being the only military user is that a lot of the systems are set up for civilian use. A good example is the upper door to the ramp, the latch for closing and locking is located outside so a remember has to lower the ramp then lay on his/her back hanging outside to either close or open the upper door while in flight. They're coming up with fixes all the time but there are many of these little teething problems that the RCAF alone will have to sort out.

 

[Apophenia]

... Unfortunately, Sikorsky quit building Sea Kings back during the late 1970s.
The idea for the S-92/CH-148 sparked when some Canadian air crew visited the Sikorsky factory circa 1983...

That wants some unpacking.

True that Sikorsky had quit S-61 production ... but Westland Helicopters hadn't. If DND had wanted direct replacements to fulfil their 1977 Sea King Replacement project, they could have sourced them from Britain (Westland didn't build its last WS-61 Sea King until 1990 - an HAS., ZG875.) But NDHQ never approached Westland for the SKR project ... those ensconced in the Pearkes Building were really only interested in Sea King avionics/sensor upgrades at the time (culminating in CH-124 upgrade contracts in 1983).

Then there's the economic considerations surrounding the SKR project. In 1977, Canada's official unemployment rate was put at about 8% and growing - as were business debt levels. But, despite stagflation, the CAD was roughly on par with the USD. So, the GoC was put in a quandry - the unemployed and businesses were demanding a break but a high-valued dollar made imports more attractive. It was a political minefield. Small wonder then, that as NDHQ dithered on airframes and with a defence budget of CAD 4.15B (or $17.35B in current values), Donald MacDonald effectively kicked a genuine Sea King Replacement into the long grass!

The notion of Canadian air crew visiting Sikorsky in 1983 makes for a cute story. But, actually, the S-92 had its origins in the Sikorsky medium helicopter project which dated back at least to 1980. That matured into the S-70C29 (with 'C' for Civil) project which was aimed at offshore rigs, etc. with direct mention of an "S-61N replacement". The H-92 Superhawk came later and, originally, was to have been a straightforward militarized S-92 derivative - wince! - but we can't blame visiting CF personnel for the H-92.

In any case, the New Shipboard Aircraft (NSA) project didn't even exist until 1985. The Sikorsky submission for NSA was the S-70 (up against the EH101 and SA332 Super Puma). The immediate objection to the S-70 was that crews could not stand upright whilest working in the cabin. Knowing that they had a losing bid, Sikorsky yanked their S-70 from the NSA contest (Sikorsky had no alternative to submit - their S-65 was too big (and expensive) and the more modest S-92 wouldn't fly for another decade).

For helmutkohl: As riggerrob said, Canada did choose the EH101. The erstwhile winners of NSA and the separate New Search and Rescue Helicopter (NSH) project were 35 ASW CH-148 Petrels and 15 SAR CH-149 Chimos ordered for $5.8B (CAD 9.9B today) in 1992. The next year, that order was cut back to 43 EH101 for $4.4B (now CAD 7.37B). Such numbers had a profound effect on the 1993 Federal Election and the new government slashed those NSA/NSH contracts altogether.

Five years later, in January 1998, the EH101 was back on with a $790M (today CAD 1.24B) order for 15 AW520 variants as new CH-149 Cormorant SAR aircraft. Then came the Maritime Helicopter Project to replace the CH-124 Sea Kings at long last. The result was the CH-148 Cyclone ... which rising blood pressure precludes any further discussion of by me ;P

 

[riggerrob]

Dear Apophenia,
Thanks for filling in the political and economic background behind the Sea King Replacement program. I was but a lowly wrench-bender back in those days.
I did try researching the political background SKR, but got too depressed.
Sikorsky may very well have been sketching the S-92 before Canadian aircrew visited circa 1983. I was just repeating a story told to me by our Helicopter Air Detachment Commander ... a major navigator.
You are the first person to mention the need for stand-up room during ASW operations. I guessed that we needed a larger cabin for the occasional mid-ocean rescue mission and cross-decking personnel.

 

[riggerrob]

Canadian defense purchases are a confusing process that baffles even long-serving military members. It does not help that the poor bloody infantry/pilot/sailor is "priority last" in many defense purchases.
I bent wrenches on Canadian Sea King helicopters between 1979 and 1985. They served more than 50 years, from 163 to 2018. Even back during the late 1970s, the Canadian Armed Forces were mumbling about buying replacement helicopters. Unfortunately, Sikorsky quit building Sea Kings back during the late 1970s.
The idea for the S-92/CH-148 sparked when some Canadian air crew visited the Sikorsky factory circa 1983. After a tour and sales pitch on the S-40 Sea hawk, the Canadians replied "That is nice, but the cabin is not big enough for our admiral's barge ... er ... cross-decking the padre on Sunday mornings ... er ... rescue role." Sikorsky salesmen chuckled and waved goodbye to their guests. But the idea stuck and a few years later, Sikorsky announced that they were developing an SH-60 variant with a larger fuselage hanging under a larger-diameter SH-60 rotor system. The S-92 has a rear cargo ramp and resembles that of military cargo helicopters like CH-53, EH-101, NH-90, S-61R, etc. Sikorsky first sold a few S-92s to the off-shore oil industry who used them to transport crews to off-shore oil rigs.
Meanwhile, a European consortium was developing the EH-101 to replace Sea Kings in Italian and British service. The CAF announced that they wanted to buy EH-101s as Sea King replacements, but that deal was squashed when Jean Chretien's Federal Liberal Party got elected in 1993. Cancellation costs were huge! Meanwhile, the RCAF quietly bought a batch of EH-101s for their search and rescue role. We still see EH-101 Cormorants flying along the West Coast.
After the Eh-101 debacle, politicians dithered until 2004 when Sikorsky got a contract to build 24 CH-148 Cyclone helicopters for the RCAF. Repeated delays saw the first CH-148s only delivered in 2015. Even so, the first batch lacked critical anti-submarine software, etc. CH-148's primary role is anti-submarine launching from the flight decks of RCN frigates.

Slight correction. The contract is for 28 Cyclones. One of the problems of being the only military user is that a lot of the systems are set up for civilian use. A good example is the upper door to the ramp, the latch for closing and locking is located outside so a remember has to lower the ramp then lay on his/her back hanging outside to either close or open the upper door while in flight. They're coming up with fixes all the time but there are many of these little teething problems that the RCAF alone will have to sort out.

So the CH-148 Cyclone upper/rear ramp is even worse than the Shorts Skyvan. At least Skyvan has internal ramp latch handles.
I suspect that the external latch is an attempt to limit empty weight.
Also consider that a civilian cargo version is only going to unload on hard-surfaced landing pads (e.g. oil rigs).
Any military cargo version would need hydraulics to quickly open and close the ramp. I wonder how much hydraulics would add to the empty weight.
Mind you, Cyclones are only used for ASW, and you don't need a ramp for ASW, so cargo carrying is "priority last."

 

[kitnut617]

Canadian defense purchases are a confusing process that baffles even long-serving military members. It does not help that the poor bloody infantry/pilot/sailor is "priority last" in many defense purchases.
I bent wrenches on Canadian Sea King helicopters between 1979 and 1985. They served more than 50 years, from 163 to 2018. Even back during the late 1970s, the Canadian Armed Forces were mumbling about buying replacement helicopters. Unfortunately, Sikorsky quit building Sea Kings back during the late 1970s.
The idea for the S-92/CH-148 sparked when some Canadian air crew visited the Sikorsky factory circa 1983. After a tour and sales pitch on the S-40 Sea hawk, the Canadians replied "That is nice, but the cabin is not big enough for our admiral's barge ... er ... cross-decking the padre on Sunday mornings ... er ... rescue role." Sikorsky salesmen chuckled and waved goodbye to their guests. But the idea stuck and a few years later, Sikorsky announced that they were developing an SH-60 variant with a larger fuselage hanging under a larger-diameter SH-60 rotor system. The S-92 has a rear cargo ramp and resembles that of military cargo helicopters like CH-53, EH-101, NH-90, S-61R, etc. Sikorsky first sold a few S-92s to the off-shore oil industry who used them to transport crews to off-shore oil rigs.
Meanwhile, a European consortium was developing the EH-101 to replace Sea Kings in Italian and British service. The CAF announced that they wanted to buy EH-101s as Sea King replacements, but that deal was squashed when Jean Chretien's Federal Liberal Party got elected in 1993. Cancellation costs were huge! Meanwhile, the RCAF quietly bought a batch of EH-101s for their search and rescue role. We still see EH-101 Cormorants flying along the West Coast.
After the Eh-101 debacle, politicians dithered until 2004 when Sikorsky got a contract to build 24 CH-148 Cyclone helicopters for the RCAF. Repeated delays saw the first CH-148s only delivered in 2015. Even so, the first batch lacked critical anti-submarine software, etc. CH-148's primary role is anti-submarine launching from the flight decks of RCN frigates.

Slight correction. The contract is for 28 Cyclones. One of the problems of being the only military user is that a lot of the systems are set up for civilian use. A good example is the upper door to the ramp, the latch for closing and locking is located outside so a remember has to lower the ramp then lay on his/her back hanging outside to either close or open the upper door while in flight. They're coming up with fixes all the time but there are many of these little teething problems that the RCAF alone will have to sort out.

So the CH-148 Cyclone upper/rear ramp is even worse than the Shorts Skyvan. At least Skyvan has internal ramp latch handles.
I suspect that the external latch is an attempt to limit empty weight.
Also consider that a civilian cargo version is only going to unload on hard-surfaced landing pads (e.g. oil rigs).
Any military cargo version would need hydraulics to quickly open and close the ramp. I wonder how much hydraulics would add to the empty weight.
Mind you, Cyclones are only used for ASW, and you don't need a ramp for ASW, so cargo carrying is "priority last."

You also forgot to mention, it was Chretien who signed up for these Sikorsky CH-148's just before he stepped down as Prime Minister.

 

[helmutkohl]

... Unfortunately, Sikorsky quit building Sea Kings back during the late 1970s.
The idea for the S-92/CH-148 sparked when some Canadian air crew visited the Sikorsky factory circa 1983...

That wants some unpacking.

True that Sikorsky had quit S-61 production ... but Westland Helicopters hadn't. If DND had wanted direct replacements to fulfil their 1977 Sea King Replacement project, they could have sourced them from Britain (Westland didn't build its last WS-61 Sea King until 1990 - an HAS., ZG875.) But NDHQ never approached Westland for the SKR project ... those ensconced in the Pearkes Building were really only interested in Sea King avionics/sensor upgrades at the time (culminating in CH-124 upgrade contracts in 1983).

Then there's the economic considerations surrounding the SKR project. In 1977, Canada's official unemployment rate was put at about 8% and growing - as were business debt levels. But, despite stagflation, the CAD was roughly on par with the USD. So, the GoC was put in a quandry - the unemployed and businesses were demanding a break but a high-valued dollar made imports more attractive. It was a political minefield. Small wonder then, that as NDHQ dithered on airframes and with a defence budget of CAD 4.15B (or $17.35B in current values), Donald MacDonald effectively kicked a genuine Sea King Replacement into the long grass!

The notion of Canadian air crew visiting Sikorsky in 1983 makes for a cute story. But, actually, the S-92 had its origins in the Sikorsky medium helicopter project which dated back at least to 1980. That matured into the S-70C29 (with 'C' for Civil) project which was aimed at offshore rigs, etc. with direct mention of an "S-61N replacement". The H-92 Superhawk came later and, originally, was to have been a straightforward militarized S-92 derivative - wince! - but we can't blame visiting CF personnel for the H-92.

In any case, the New Shipboard Aircraft (NSA) project didn't even exist until 1985. The Sikorsky submission for NSA was the S-70 (up against the EH101 and SA332 Super Puma). The immediate objection to the S-70 was that crews could not stand upright whilest working in the cabin. Knowing that they had a losing bid, Sikorsky yanked their S-70 from the NSA contest (Sikorsky had no alternative to submit - their S-65 was too big (and expensive) and the more modest S-92 wouldn't fly for another decade).

For helmutkohl: As riggerrob said, Canada did choose the EH101. The erstwhile winners of NSA and the separate New Search and Rescue Helicopter (NSH) project were 35 ASW CH-148 Petrels and 15 SAR CH-149 Chimos ordered for $5.8B (CAD 9.9B today) in 1992. The next year, that order was cut back to 43 EH101 for $4.4B (now CAD 7.37B). Such numbers had a profound effect on the 1993 Federal Election and the new government slashed those NSA/NSH contracts altogether.

Five years later, in January 1998, the EH101 was back on with a $790M (today CAD 1.24B) order for 15 AW520 variants as new CH-149 Cormorant SAR aircraft. Then came the Maritime Helicopter Project to replace the CH-124 Sea Kings at long last. The result was the CH-148 Cyclone ... which rising blood pressure precludes any further discussion of by me ;P

right, since the Merlin/Cormorant was already chosen in the past, i dont see why they would even consider not only choosing a new but similar type..but choosing something in being the first and only customer of.

 

[Apophenia]

... I did try researching the political background SKR, but got too depressed...

A common reaction to many Canadian procurement attempts. I looked into SKR/NSA/MHP in some detail a few decades back. But I do believe that my lingering depression has begun to lift!

You are the first person to mention the need for stand-up room during ASW operations. I guessed that we needed a larger cabin for the occasional mid-ocean rescue mission and cross-decking personnel.

IIRC, that detail came from an NSA Request for Proposals ... but I no longer have a copy.