Shenyang / Chengdu "6th Gen" Aircraft - General Discussion and Speculation

We won't know for years. We also won't know for certainty that the troughs won't come back later. They seem to be developing the aircraft rapidly (aiming for the earliest IOC), so features could be chosen because they are technically or tactically more desirable or because they involve less development risk, more established technologies or more commonality with other programs (e.g. sharing systems which are being matured for the J-50/J-XDS). There are many possible explanations.
I remember reading somewhere that the canted-inward tailfins of Have Blue only served to reflect IR rather than conceal it, worsening the stealth, so the F-117's fins were placed further aft and canted out. It might be that troughs seem like a good idea and shield from IR sensors below but heat up and become IR emitters to the rear and above, especially when using afterburners and for some time afterwards.

Here's a tailpipe on a YF-23, covered in heat-resistant tiles. Now imagine them all hot and re-radiating the heat they've absorbed.

Both managing the heat in a trough and keeping it from spreading and overheating other parts of the plane and IR stealth may be more trouble than they're worth - or worse.

Broad spatulate exhausts that allow the wide plume to exchange heat with the surrounding air quicker, as might be the case with the P&W XA103 might be better (assuming the render's accurate) once all the numbers have been crunched - but you can't cram three of those closely.

I note that integrated ramp-type exhausts have gone out of fashion for hypersonic designs lately, probably because of thermal management problems.

All guesses of course.
 

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Broad spatulate exhausts that allow the wide plume to exchange heat with the surrounding air quicker, as might be the case with the P&W XA103 might be better (assuming the render's accurate) once all the numbers have been crunched - but you can't cram three of those closely.
I know part of the JT8D hush kit was a star-lobed exhaust to mix the hot and fast-moving core air with the cool and slow moving fan air. This would have an unintentional effect of reducing IR emissions.
Hush-kit-for-the-Pratt-and-Whitney-JT8D-730x547.jpeg
pardon the "upskirt" but this is one of the best shots I have seen.

There's also one of the IR-suppression exhaust designs for the Black Hawk helicopters that forces the hot exhaust out into a narrow slit on the top of the airframe.

A flat spatulate exhaust like the F-117 or the P&W video would result in even faster mixing than that star-lobed version.
 
If indeed legit, this image seems to be the first clearer one showing one of the later J-36 prototypes - based on the revised twin main landing gear configuration with the wheels arranged side by side - from behind. Anyway a rare sight.

IMG_2882.jpeg
 
If indeed legit, this image seems to be the first clearer one showing one of the later J-36 prototypes - based on the revised twin main landing gear configuration with the wheels arranged side by side - from behind. Anyway a rare sight.

Those bulges seem to confirm that the inner “tail feathers” are controlled by actuators, while the ones closer to the wingtips are likely flexible materials without actuators.
For now, of course, we can’t really speculate on how fast this bird can fly—but just look at those three hot, fiery red ass…
This is truly a 21st-century-style aviation tech marvel.:oops:
 
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Looks the thing is designed for high altitude.
The huge wing will make it outturn a F16 at 60000 feet and above
 
If indeed legit, this image seems to be the first clearer one showing one of the later J-36 prototypes - based on the revised twin main landing gear configuration with the wheels arranged side by side - from behind. Anyway a rare sight.

View attachment 800495

Thst's a quite crowded area to lit a burner. Even so 3....
 
The huge wing means nothing, without knowing the weight. The AN-225 has a huge wing as well. It's about the wing loading, not the size of the wing alone. I wonder if they're going to update the engine nozzle flaps to match the wing TE angle? There seems to be a smorgasbord of angles on that design.
 
The huge wing means nothing, without knowing the weight. The AN-225 has a huge wing as well. It's about the wing loading, not the size of the wing alone. I wonder if they're going to update the engine nozzle flaps to match the wing TE angle? There seems to be a smorgasbord of angles on that design.
Theoretically J-36 would have the lowest wing loading of any modern fighter given it is a large flying cranked delta. Earlier calculations give it around ~275kg/m^2.

Also, the nozzle flaps are already aligned to the main wing, it is just hard to tell because all of the off angle photos. There isn't many angles on J-36 given it is literally just a flying cranked delta.
 
Wonder how many J-36 prototypes we will eventually see fly? Four or possibly five? They are certainly moving very fast in getting the prototypes flying.
 
Wonder how many J-36 prototypes we will eventually see fly? Four or possibly five? They are certainly moving very fast in getting the prototypes flying.
J-20 had at least 4 early "0" series prototype including a single static test frame and 7 "1" series prototype. Then there are the "10" series for LRIP units and subsequent "2" series of prototype for WS-10C(?) of which only one is known (2021), "3" series for J-20S of which at least 5 exists (2031, 2032 and 2035 photographed), "4" series seems to be skipped likely due tetraphobia in China and the "5" series for J-20A, of which at least 7 exists.

If the numbering system has not changed and 36011 means it's already on the "1" series, we could expect up to 7-ish prototypes before LRIP.
 
In any case, based on the known progress, the project is moving quickly. It might have a chance to enter service in 2027.
 
In any case, based on the known progress, the project is moving quickly. It might have a chance to enter service in 2027.
That's a impossible timeline, It'll take until 2027 optimistically to even get out of the prototype phase and then a few extra years of LRIP and operational testing before being inducted.
 
True Sferrin, the F-16 is not capable of flying at over 60,000 feet being only capable of flying at 50,000 to 55,000 feet.
 
The following content is translated into English with the help of AI ;)

The following are some thoughts I had recently while looking at these photos. Due to my essentially zero background in aerodynamics, I’m not trying to make any serious technical claims here. Instead, I’m only starting from what can be clearly seen in the images themselves — the very obvious and very different design features.

First, there is a clear common trait between the two designs: the extensive use of what I would loosely describe as “tail feathers” structures. This in itself isn’t hard to understand. If the vertical tail is abandoned, then in order to preserve controllability, additional control surfaces inevitably have to be introduced. And under stealth constraints, placing more of these control surfaces toward the rear of the aircraft seems like one of the more reasonable choices. Since F-47 has not yet released any official rendering that clearly shows its rear end, even though the canards may compensate for a significant portion of control authority, it is still difficult to say whether there are actual control surfaces on its tail section. This makes me wonder whether this kind of “tail-feather”–style distributed control could become a shared design language for sixth-generation aircraft — assuming, of course, that tailless configurations themselves become a general consensus.
(On a personal note, I really like this kind of design. It makes the aircraft genuinely look like a bird, which is why I like to describe these structures as “tail feathers.”)

From this point onward, what caught my attention most in the upper photo is how J-36 handles these structures. On the inner tail feathers, closer to the engines, it clearly uses traditional mechanical actuators with visible bulges. Yet on the outer side, it appears to adopt a more forward-leaning solution: split control surfaces, possibly even involving flexible skins. A more recent photo seems to confirm that these are indeed split flaps, since they are not permanently deployed.

By contrast, J-50 adopts a configuration combining all-moving wingtips with thrust-vectoring nozzles. On the tail-feather elements closer to the wingtips, there are clearly visible actuator bulges. However, the two inner tail-feather elements closer to the engines do not appear to show any obvious actuators at all, which makes me wonder whether they are actually movable. Overall, I have not seen any photo in which J-50’s set of tail feathers clearly shows signs of deflection or movement.

While making this comparison, I started to think that perhaps this is not so much about J-36 adopting an especially aggressive design. Instead, because it lacks an all-moving wingtip like J-50, yet still needs to ensure sufficient control authority, it may be forced to rely on split control surfaces near the wingtips in order to increase control moment and compensate for that difference.

Building on this small line of thought, and especially when considering the historical division of roles between the 601 and 611 institutes, I find it difficult not to imagine a scenario where J-50 reaches operational service earlier as a more readily realizable design, while J-36 moves in a more strategic direction, serving as a more specialized platform.

These are just some personal little thoughts based on limited imagery and visible design differences. In a way, it even feels like we may be approaching an era once imagined before humanity ever truly flew — where aircraft spread their wings and fly like birds.
 
In any case, based on the known progress, the project is moving quickly. It might have a chance to enter service in 2027.

They need time to finish testing, then time to produce the aircraft in quantity, and time to train the pilots. Any major system not being fully developed can hold up the aircraft as well.

Still, a lot of this could be sped up. Building multiple options for systems (e.g. two or three radars developed in parallel), conducting extensive training on simulators, skipping LRIP and going straight to full production... it would be expensive, but I'm not sure it would be impossible for a couple hundred to enter service by 2031.
 
Skipping LRIP and going straight into full rate production would not be that dificult for China Avimimus, as long as nothing happens to the prototypes during testing.
 
Skipping LRIP and going straight into full rate production would not be that dificult for China Avimimus, as long as nothing happens to the prototypes during testing.
You can skip LRIP, but you can't skip operational testing and training. It'll take a while for the program to produce a production representative prototype for the Airforce to test and train on. If you forced full production and then the Airforce realises during their testing that a certain feature is say missing or underdeveloped, you'll just end up with a bunch of very expensive planes that the end user will not accept.
 
You can skip LRIP, but you can't skip operational testing and training. It'll take a while for the program to produce a production representative prototype for the Airforce to test and train on. If you forced full production and then the Airforce realises during their testing that a certain feature is say missing or underdeveloped, you'll just end up with a bunch of very expensive planes that the end user will not accept.
Well said. One has to remember there is a significant difference in Experimental Test Pilots and Line Pilots methods of operation..
 

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