Schneider and Aviméta Aircraft Designations

[Apophenia]

I am posting this embryonic list more because of all that I don't know rather than what little I've been able to gather. Hopefully other members can shed some light and clarity on my quite incomplete efforts.

BTW, all of this was inspired by the Aircraft from Schneider's Aviméta company thread in Secret Early Aircraft Projects.
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/aircraft-from-schneiders-aviméta-company.12935/

Schneider et Cie Aircraft - Participation Henri-Paul, Jean Schneider

Steelworks and shipbuilders Schneider et Cie (aka Établissements Schneider or 'Schneider-Creusot') created a Paris-based aviation division in 1918. This division was intended to make use of Schneider's metalworking expertise in airframe construction - in particular, the use of its own forged aluminum alloy, dubbed 'Alférium'.

In part, the aviation division was also meant to satisfy the flying interests of the sons of company chairman, Eugène II Schneider. As a result, the aviation subsidiary would be known as Participation Henri-Paul, Jean Schneider. Unfortunately, pilot Henri-Paul - or sous-lieutenant Schneider, LH, CdeG, of SPA 49 - was killed in action on 23 Feb 1918. His brother Jean (who had also served as a fighter pilot with SPA 49) administered this Schneider aviation division after the war.

According to period advertisements, Schneider et Cie - as they still refered to themselves - intended to produce "avions & hydravions métalliques multimoteurs" as both "appareils militaires & commerciaux". They were also offering "métallurgie" in the form of high-strength light alloy (sheets, tubes, and profiles) along with ordinary carbon steels, specialty steels, tool steels as well as bronze and brass items.

In December 1926, the Schneider aviation subsidiary was renamed as Aviméta (see separate list, below).

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Schneider Aircraft Designations

Let confusion reign! It seems that Schneider aircraft designs were given types numbers and a designation prefix of 'Sch.'. (I'm assuming that this assignment was made by officialdom ... but do not know for sure.) Internally, it seems that the firm identified projects by what military programme or specification they were intended to satisfy (at least, that is my guess). This would explain why the first 'designation' seems to be 'S.2' (or S2).

That 'S.2' relates to a requirement for a ground-strafing attack aircraft. That, in itself is a little confusing. For some reason, the STAé of that time used the German-derived term 'Strafing' (instead of, say, mitraillage). And, more to the point, since this was to be an armour-protected airframe, the specific term Blinde should logically have been applied. But it wasn't.

Perhaps, that military 'S' for 'Strafing' designator would have confused less had Schneider types not also been assigned those 'Sch.' prefixes? In any case, we now see programmes S.2 and S.3 being applied as if they were individual type designations. This results in some rather bizarre constructions - like 'Henri-Paul' S.3 (or S3). But the biggest issue is inconsistancy. Eg: in one source, we see the Schneider 'Henri-Paul' bomber referred to as the 'HP' (makes sense) as well as the 'Schneider S.2', 'Sch.2 S3', and 'Sch. 3'. [1] In most other sources, the bomber is called 'Henri-Paul' S.3. Which of any of these nomnclatures are correct?

The final design attributed to Schneider was the Sch. 10M - with the 'M' for 'Métallique'. Why this distinction was felt necessary when all Schneider aircraft to date had metal structures is unclear. It may simply have been an attempt to emphasize metal cladding - earlier designs having had primarily cloth-covered metal structures.

For convenience in this list, I will simply refer to design iterations which seem to lack 'Sch.' designations by their appropriate Programme numbers. (This can be modified if and when new designations are revealed.)

Schneider 'Sch.' Aircraft Designations

(Programme S.2) - (Project) 1921 armoured assault a/c
- (S.2) : 2-seat ground-attack a/c; S.2 = Strafing, 2-places
- (S.2) : Lighter, more manoeuvrable a/c (than 'Henri-Paul')
-- Despite the numeral, 'S.2' was not the same as Sch.2 S.3
-- NB: In reply #3, hesham reports a BN.2 variant*
-- * Improb. for 'Henri-Paul'; could BN.2 be related to S.2?

Sch. 2 - 1922; possibly typo for the built Sch. 3 'Henri-Paul'
- Sch. 2: Dates seem to be identical as for the Sch.3 [1]
- Sch. 2: Online references to nonsensical* 'Sch. 2 S3' [sic]
-- * Assuming Sch.2 is meant to be the above 2-seat a/c

(Programme S.3) - 1922 armoured assault aircraft/bomber; x 1
- (S.3) : 3-seat ground-attack aircraft; S.3 = Strafing, 3-places
- (S.3) : Clearly a reference to the built 'Henri-Paul' prototype
-- NB: 'S.3' only applied to the assault a/c; bomber was a 'BN.4'
-- Designation Sch. 3 is commonly applied to the 'Henri-Paul'

Sch. 3 - 1922 'Henri-Paul'; 4-seat heavy night bomber; x 1
- Sch. 3 : (As planned) 3-seat armoured assault aircraft
- Sch. 3 : (As planned) 2 x 37 mm + 1 x 75 mm cannons
- Sch. 3 : (As built) Reassigned by officialdom as a BN.4*
-- * BN.4 (or BN4) refers to Bomber-Nuit, quatre-places
- Sch. 3 : 4 x 370 hp LD 12Da (as push-pulls); span 30.00 m
- Sch. 3 : 3-bay biplane; fabric-covered metal; triple tails
- Sch. 3 : Seems to be redesignated as Aviméta's Type 21

Sch. 4 - Sch. 5 - (??) hypothetical designations

Sch. 10M - 1925 avion quadriplace de combat prototype; x 1
- Sch. 10M: (Métallique) Low-wing; pod & twin-boom fuselage
- Sch. 10M: 2 x 400 hp Lorraine-Dietrich 12Db; span 18.50 m
- Sch. 10M: Cantilever monoplane; 4-seat; trousered main u/c

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[1] From the Aviation Le Havre blog; 25 novembre 2010. This article's author, 'boboce' lists references but commenters do not.
-- http://aviation-le-havre.over-blog.com/article-le-schneider-henri-paul-60856006.html

[2] In the article linked to above, commenter 'BORGET Michel' states that the completed 'Sch.2 S3' was rolled out at the end of August 1922. That dating is a perfect match for the 'Henri-Paul' which is most often assigned the designation 'Sch. 3' or 'S.3'. So, was this a simple typographical error? We much consider the source. I presume that 'BORGET Michel' is Le Fana de l'Aviation author, Michel Borget. If so, he 'knows his oignons'. Therefore, we might as easily conclude that the more widely accepted Sch.3 designation for the 'Henri-Paul' is the one in error. Sacrebleu!

M. Borget goes on to say (in translation) that "the Sch.2 S3 was assembled in the Schneider factory in Gonfreville-L'Orcher, with parts made at the Schneider foundry workshop in Montchanin." (This corrects the claims that components for the 'Henri-Paul' had been assembled at the then-incomplete Bléville field.)

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Aviméta (Société pour la construction d'Avions Métalliques)

As noted above, in December 1926, Schneider's aviation division was rebranded as Aviméta. Jean Schneider became administrator of the rebranded firm, Louis Delasalle was head of the design office, and Eugène Lepère was chief engineer. None of the Aviméta aircraft designs proved commercially successful. In 1929, the Groupe Schneider withdrew all further financial support for Aviméta, forcing the société to file for bankruptcy.

Aviméta Aircraft Designations

Aviméta aircraft designs were given specific type numbers. The first known number is for the Aviméta 21 - which seems to have been little more than a re-numbering of the Schneider 'Henri-Paul' biplane bomber. These type numbers were obviously sequential but there are large gaps between the type numbers or number groups. (Whether those gaps represent unassigned numbers or 'missing' designations, remains to be seen.)

Aviméta Aircraft Type Numbers

Aviméta 21 - 192? metal; twin-engined; biplane bomber; x 1
- Type 21 : Seems to be redesignated Schneider 'Henri-Paul'
- 'Henri-Paul': 4 x 370 hp LD 12Da push-pulls; span 30.00 m
- 'Henri-Paul': 3-bay biplane; fabric/Alférium-covered struct.

Aviméta 82 - (Project?) Single-seat fighter; (??) no details
- Type 82 : Preceded Type 88; possibly a related design (?)

Aviméta 88 - 1927 single-engined parasol night fighter; x 1
- Type 88 : All-metal monoplane w/ corrugated-skin constr.
- Type 88 : 1 x 560 hp Hispano-Suiza 12Hb V12; span 17.00 m
- Type 88 : Tandem 2-seater; fixed, cantilevered main gear
-- To 1925 C.2 spec.; overweight; development abandoned

Aviméta 92 - 1928 single-engined light transport/tourer; x 1
- Type 90 - (Project) Preliminary design; led to Type 92
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/aircraft-from-schneiders-aviméta-company.12935/#post-397843
- Type 91 : (Project) (??) no details; Type 90 variant
- Type 92 : All-metal monoplane; corrugated-skin wing constr.
- Type 92 : 1 x 120 hp Salmson 9Ac radial; span 12.60 m
- Type 92 : 4-seater; high, braced, constant-chord wings
- Type 92-230: Transatlantic* variant for Michel Détroyat
- Type 92-230: 1 x 220 hp** Wright Whirlwind J-5 9-cyl.
-- * No Transatlantic attempt was even made with 92-230
-- * But Détroyat flew Algiers-Paris non-stop in 9 hr 55 min
-- ** 230 rating measured chevaux-vapeur (bhp), not hp
- Type 93 : (Project) (??) no details; Type 90/92 variant
- Type 93 : Possibly internal designation for 92-230 (??)
- Type 94 : Re-engined Aviméta 92; 230 hp Lorraine 7 Ma
- Type 95 : Re-engined Aviméta 92; engine type unknown
-- Type 94 & 95 underwent airworthiness certificate tests

Aviméta 120 - (Project) Attack bomber; led to Aviméta 121
- Type 120: Intended to satisfy the 1928 M.4 requirement
- Type 120: 2 x 450 hp Lorraine 12 Eb Courlis; span (??) m
- Type 120: (??) No other details

Aviméta 121 - 1928 multi-seat, multi-role (BCR)* prototype
- Type 121: All-metal monoplane; corrogated-skin wing constr.
- Type 121: 2 x 150 hp Lorraine-Dietrich 8A V8; span 21.80 m
- Type 121: High, thick-sectioned monoplane; spatted u/c
-- * BCR = Bombardement, Chasse, Reconnaissance**
-- ** Or = Bombardement, Chasseur, Reconnaissance
- Type 121(?): (Project) Twin-float recce/torpedo-bomber

Aviméta 130 - (Project) Single-engined, high-wing airliner
- Type 130: Eugène Lepère commercial transport concept
- Type 130: 1 x 450-to-600 hp engine (type is not spec'd)*
- Type 130: Eclipsed when Type 132 chosen for constr'n
-- * hesham says 450 hp Lorraine 12 Eb Courlis W-12

Aviméta 131 - (Project) Twin-engined, high-wing airliner
- Type 131: Eugène Lepère commercial transport concept
- Type 131: 2 x 380 hp Gnome-Rhône Jupiter 9-cyl.
- Type 131: Eclipsed when Type 132 chosen for constr'n

Aviméta 132 - 1928 trimotor monoplane; 8 pax airliner; x 1
- Type 132: Trimotor variant within Lepère's Type 13x series
- Type 132: 3 x 230 hp Salmson 9Ab radials; span 21.90 m
- Type 132: High cantilever wings; all-metal construction
-- Type 132 proved a mediocre performer due to weight

 

[Stargazer]

Congratulations on this research! I tried to establish a Schneider/Avimeta list earlier this week, but was baffled by the gaps and apparent lack of logic in the designations... Well, you certainly made the most of it, including projects I didn't know about!
For those who are interested — and who can read French — here are three PDF files recently found on the web; they document the history of the Schneider group, its aviation activities, and the demise of the latter.

 

[hesham]

Amazing work as usual my dear Apophenia,

For Schneider Henri-Paul,there was a version of BN.2 also,or it was completed in this category

For Avimeta,

82 was mentioned in Wikipedia,no more details,except it was a single seat fighter project,
preceded Type-88

90 was the primary design to Type-92,please see;

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/aircraft-from-schneiders-avim%C3%A9ta-company.12935/#post-397843

91 & 93 were unknown project versions.

 

[Apophenia]

Many thanks, hesham. I'll revise my list accordingly.

Stargazer: This is brilliant stuff, Stéphane! I've only skimmed so far but, already, so many details are falling into place.

Most interesting was that the name change to Aviméta had more to do with a desire to distance Schneider et Cie from both brand-name risks and postwar 'merchants-of-death' associations. And, those notions seem to have sprung mainly from Eugène II. (BTW, I'm seeing both 'Eugène Schneider II' and 'Eugène II Schneider' in French. Am I right that the latter was the period correct form?)

Many sources make cryptic references to Schneider building a series of 370 cv 12-cylinder aero-engines in 1916. I searched around for more info but, only now is it revealed that these were license-built Lorraine V12s (with crankshafts made at La Creusot).

I had no idea that Schneider et Cie held a stake in Skoda Brno (until the Nazi occupation). Nor was I aware that Schneider-Creusot forged the blanks for Levasseur Reed metal props. That, in itself, makes clear why Schneiders would be interested in developing a forged alloy of their own.

 

[Stargazer]

I'm seeing both 'Eugène Schneider II' and 'Eugène II Schneider' in French. Am I right that the latter was the period correct form?

The correct (oral) form is "Eugène Schneider, deuxième du nom", which should logically be transcribed as "Eugène Schneider II"... but "Eugène II Schneider"??? It seems very odd to me... If you say you've encountered it, I believe you, but I don't think I've ever come across it. My impression is that the English language considers the number to apply to the first name only (thus "Schneider, Eugene the second") while the French language considers it applies to the entire name ("Eugène Schneider" II).
Also, usage evolves over time. For instance, I was shocked the first time I visited Belgium, because they put the street numbers after the street names (i.e. "rue Schneider, 23"), unlike us ("23, rue Schneider")... until I discovered that it also was common practice in France before the Great War!

 

[Apophenia]

Thanks. The oral form is very logical and unambiguous. And English language usage would be similar - Eugene Schneider, the Second (or Eugene Schneider II) but, for the second of any name, the form Eugene Schneider, Jr. would be more common.

That 'Eugène II Schneider' form I have only seen in French language text. I don't recall having seem this form before (or, if I did, I did not register it at the time). Perhaps this a dated form at the time of use?

 

[Stargazer]

First of all, folks, sorry for the ongoing off-topic considerations...

English language usage would be similar - Eugene Schneider, the Second (or Eugene Schneider II

Yes, except that when you put the second name in first position, it becomes "Schneider, Eugene Jr." (no comma) which tends to indicate that the "Jr." applies to the first name rather than the whole thing.Or maybe it's just to avoid comma repetition?

That 'Eugène II Schneider' form I have only seen in French language text. I don't recall having seem this form before (or, if I did, I did not register it at the time). Perhaps this a dated form at the time of use?

Yes, possibly related to the way kings were desigated in the Ancient Regime: "Louis XIV de Bourbon" ?

 

[Apophenia]

... folks, sorry for the ongoing off-topic considerations...

Moi aussi! But such French usage diversions are very handy for us Anglophones