SAC JH-XX medium bomber

Deino

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Hu, what's that ??? ... a fan-art model made by the local Xi'an modeling club or - the Sharp Sword behind may give a bit of credibility - even something real ? Anyway that model looks at least as a model more than interesting and it could fit to the reports of that so far unknown fuselage we saw at SAC !??

Therefore I checked my hardrive since I thought I knew this design .... and the yellow model (saved in February 2010) shares at least some similarities.

Besides that, is there anyone with an idea where this model is on display and even more could this thing be a feasible design for a decent regional bomber ? ???

Deino
 

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Triton

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Is this real or a fake? Sorry, Deino, I don't quite understand what you are saying about this model in your previous post.

Source:
http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/counterstrike111/media/191920s51qy1h153ykz1n6_jpg_thumb_zpsd0bd0276.jpg.html
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/06/11/is_this_chinas_new_design_for_a_stealth_bomber#7
http://theaviationist.com/2013/06/11/china-lrs/#.UbevtJzzOJQ
 

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Blitzo

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So the consensus is that the model is real. Whether it's indicative of a real project that is still ongoing is up for discussion. But many chinese boards discussing this model have been taken down, leading people to believe this model is reflective of something important in the PLA... or that this is some elaborate hoax (but no one has come forward to justify why this is a hoax yet, and the model is at a display in an exhibition. Short of PSing a picture or actually sticking a fanboy model in said exhibition, it's hard to see how a hoax of this scale could be pulled off)

So, if we follow from the assumption that this model is not hogwash, there are two (or three) possibilities.
1: We've been aware the PLAAF have had an H-X project ongoing for many years, with one proposal being a flying wing, one being a supersonic bomber. This model may reflect the latter. The consensus until a yesterday imho, was that PLAAF were going with XAC's flying wing bomber with the supersonic bomber scrapped. The model being shown could reflect a promotion of a "failed bid" just to promote the company. Or conversely (but not likely), the PLAAF may be pursuing both the flying wing and the supersonic bomber (supported by the idea that behind the supersonic bomber model is a very distinctive shape of a flying wing... that could either be the sharp sword ucav, or the flying wing H-X)

2: On the other hand, there have been persistent mutterings for a while now that SAC has been developing an Su-34 class stealthy striker/fighter bomber, commonly associated with a picture of J-15's designer inspecting a curious looking part of an aircraft or part of a mockup:

J-X.jpg

It's obviously a very curious piece of airframe, but it looks like it could make sense on the bomber, perhaps as part of the upper air intake which snakes down from the top, or perhaps the wing/body join.

From the picture of the model that emerged yesterday, (assuming it uses two WS-15 class engines) we're looking at a plane slightly shy of ~30m. That's much bigger than the Su-34 of course, but that's forgivable given it'll probably carry much more of its payload internally.

Basically we can reduce this model down to:

1: hoax
2: rejected H-X proposal
3: one of two H-X proposals with both being pursued
4: SAC's stealthy striker -- I think this idea makes the most sense. Also, if the flying wing behind the model is indeed sharp sword (instead of flying wing H-X), then this may be SAC's display, where they're showing off some of their sharpest offerings.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Looks to me like a private exhibition e.g. for visiting foreign parties who might be interested in joint ventures, displaying the range of their capabilities.
 

flateric

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well, average aviation institute graduate will find many wrong stuff in model. my five cents for another AVIC future talents competition product or kind of that
 

flateric

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and the donor is Skunk Works SS-UCAS and YF-23
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,191.msg1138.html#msg1138
 

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chuck4

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Deino said:
Hu, what's that ??? ... a fan-art model made by the local Xi'an modeling club or - the Sharp Sword behind may give a bit of credibility - even something real ? Anyway that model looks at least as a model more than interesting and it could fit to the reports of that so far unknown fuselage we saw at SAC !??

Therefore I checked my hardrive since I thought I knew this design .... and the yellow model (saved in February 2010) shares at least some similarities.

Besides that, is there anyone with an idea where this model is on display and even more could this thing be a feasible design for a decent regional bomber ? ???

Deino


I would say fan art. It looks too cartoonishly rakish and mean to convince me that it came out of a real design shop. The aerodynamic configuration to my eyes resemble an aircraft optimized for high speed, low level penetration, I think that's probably not consistent with how a stealth bomber would likely be used, if it's stealth capability is worth anything.
 

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chuck4 said:
Deino said:
Hu, what's that ??? ... a fan-art model made by the local Xi'an modeling club or - the Sharp Sword behind may give a bit of credibility - even something real ? Anyway that model looks at least as a model more than interesting and it could fit to the reports of that so far unknown fuselage we saw at SAC !??

Therefore I checked my hardrive since I thought I knew this design .... and the yellow model (saved in February 2010) shares at least some similarities.

Besides that, is there anyone with an idea where this model is on display and even more could this thing be a feasible design for a decent regional bomber ? ???

Deino


I would say fan art. It looks too cartoonishly rakish and mean to convince me that it came out of a real design shop. The aerodynamic configuration to my eyes resemble an aircraft optimized for high speed, low level penetration, I think that's probably not consistent with how a stealth bomber would likely be used, if it's stealth capability is worth anything.


The fanart is derived from the black model... and the black model is thought to be derived from the yellow barebones structural model (first appeared in 2010 I think).


Not to be contentious, but I think the model and its associated speculative drawings do not look much more cartoonish than any LRS or NGB over the years, simply look at flateric's post (yes the drawings could be designed to purposefully mislead us but that doesn't preclude the general acceptability people express towards their potential as real aircraft).




It is obviously meant to emphasize speed, no disagreements there, but what about it exactly suggests low altitude penetration as opposed to high altitude cruising? (I suppose the two aren't mutually exclusive, re F-111, B-1 etc) Low altitude penetration, high speed and its obvious emphasis on stealth (and large size = range) says anti cvbg, penetrative precision strike are realistic roles.... Far more than J-20 at any rate :p
 

Deino

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Triton said:
Is this real or a fake? Sorry, Deino, I don't quite understand what you are saying about this model in your previous post.

Sorry Triton if I was misleading !

My intention was toi simply express my surprise and enthisism and to post that damn thing, but at the same time not say this is a true concept, it will look like this and in a few months we will see this type taking off at Xi'an !

But, and therfore quoting flateric ...

flateric said:
well, average aviation institute graduate will find many wrong stuff in model. my five cents for another AVIC future talents competition product or kind of that


But espesially this is for me one reason to assume there is more behind if You simply look how the Sharp Sword and J-31 were unveiled in 2011 ... and all (sorry: many !) were joking about yet another CHinese copy-party, that they were too far behind to even build a demonstrator. And now ? The J-31 is flying, the Sharp Sword close to a maiden flight and this one .... ???

If it will look that way when it will appear for the first time, that's a completely different story, but does anyone believes that the future US bomber will look like the models and artwork currently shown ?

I think this again is a new sign of the PLA's new openess. If that thing will lokk like this model (or if it is indeed only a rejected design) I don't know or I'm even sure it will take a lot of time until we will see such a type, but regarding all that "smoke around", here and there a few reports, images and so on, I'm almost sure that China is currently considering two types of striker: a long range stealth bomber and a smaller shorter-rangened but capable for higher speed striker larger than a Flanker or JH-7.

As such let us wait and wait and ... see.
Deino
 

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Regarding the curious SAC picture... if it was to represent a part this mysterious LRS-class model you can picture it in your head as being taken from right under the left (looking from front) butterfly tail position, the round part the closest guy looks at being of course the left nozzle, which MAY signify that the prototype will use round nozzles for availability reasons (or even that they discarded flat nozzles in favour of round ones for whatever reason).

Of course, this is pure speculation, just trying to make head and tail of it. But boy, if this think proves to be real and not a hoax, i don't think words can describe the awesomeness of this thing actually flying, possibly even before the american LRS-B!

Still, time permitting though i've searched as much as i could for anything to prove this is hoax, for instance the english word in the back, or what appears to be F-35s in those posters are suspicious (or even the PLAAF markings on the tail -PS?). I was also trying to make what would be the company name and logo on those posters, but it's too blurry dammit! I'm sure there are some folks here who would love to prove this is a hoax, so do any of you are aware of any US LRS-B model presentation lately, maybe from Northrop Grumman ( because of the YF-23 tail), or do those posters in the back look familiar to you?
 

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The idea taht this may be a PSed pic of a western offering at a western or international exhibition has crossed minds... but this is the only picture we have of this model, it seems. I'd love to be proven wrong though, just to reach some kind of closure as to this aircraft's origin (atm I'd bet against that notion, unfortunately)



The F-35/22 shaped (or J-31?) shapes in the displays at the back are also interesting, few airshows or exhibitions have included token "fifth generation" drawings before.
The english also suggests this may have catered to some international visitors (although it's not unlike China to put random english words here and there just for the hell of it. "ability" in red in the middle of the wall seems quintessentially chinese, unfortunately)
 

Avimimus

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flateric said:
well, average aviation institute graduate will find many wrong stuff in model. my five cents for another AVIC future talents competition product or kind of that

Are you refering to the fan-art or the model in the photograph?

If you are refering to the latter I'd love to hear what an average aviation institute graduate would have to say (as I clearly lack the talent to see too much wrong - at least in such a low quality pic).
 

flateric

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well, to start with tiny details
- enormous canopy glass size just not needed for rapid theater attack a/c or whatever it is, but requires a lot of headache from structural engineers and battle survivability team. it's just a design geek product
- those tiny one-wheel MLGs just funny for that size of a/c
- tiny weapons bay for as I presume self-defense missiles
too narrow to hold anything with proportions differ from matchstick
 

Blitzo

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flateric said:
well, to start with tiny details
- enormous canopy glass size just not needed for rapid theater attack a/c or whatever it is, but requires a lot of headache from structural engineers and battle survivability team. it's just a design geek product
- those tiny one-wheel MLGs just funny for that size of a/c
- tiny weapons bay for as I presume self-defense missiles
too narrow to hold anything with proportions differ from matchstick


1: B-1s canopy ain't that different
2: MLG could be the model maker being slack
3: well most BVRAAMs have the proportion of a match stick so that's no problem


222103juzggww2whfn3zwc_zps56c81678.jpg

Lets talk about the big details — small details could easily be model maker screwing up, but its difficult to screw up the entire shape of the plane or the whole air intake or proportions or whatever


----

Anyway talking of the plausibility of this plane...

Chinese aerospace renaissance underway? - The DEW Line

Chinese aerospace renaissance underway?
By Dave Majumdar on June 13, 2013

During the first half of 2013 a couple of new Chinese military aviation projects have come to light. One recent development was the sighting of China's Sharp Sword unmanned combat air vehicle, which was revealed in May. More recently, images have emerged of a structural model of what appears to be a new Chinese stealth bomber.

While many are tempted to dismiss the Chinese developments as mere knock-offs based on stolen Western technologies, there are those who believe that we, particularly those of us here in the United States, are underestimating China's capabilities.

Having examined the Chinese designs, a number of highly experienced US aerospace engineers--all of whom have extensive experience designing low observable aircraft--are convinced that not only are the new designs original, but that they are viable stealth airframes (even if they are not all-aspect stealth machines in some cases). "There is an aerospace renaissance underway in China," one engineer says. "It was just a matter of time."

The Sharp Sword not only looks viable as a low observable aircraft from many angles--save for the distinctly non-stealthy exhaust, it looks like it is an original design, one engineer says. Asked about the structural model for the Chinese stealth bomber, the engineer says that his unfortunate conclusion is that the aircraft is in fact a viable design.


While China is not yet an adversary of the Unites States, there is potential that as the country continues to reemerge as a great economic and military power that it could become one. In that case it would be foolish to underestimate the capabilities of Chinese engineers. "They have talented designers," one engineer says.

If it does come down to some sort of new Cold War, this time around the United States would be facing-off against an enemy with a vibrant economy, as a learned friend notes--a marked contrast to the Soviet Union, which was always hamstrung by its command economy.
 

Deino

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Following latest rumours this model is a concept model from SAC, which was rejected in the H-X RfP and the real H-X will be a design similar to the B-2 ... however I have the feeling that there are actually two completely different and cemplementing projects: one for a long-range strategic bomber and one smaller for a supersonic striker.

Deino
 

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One word: awesome, if it's real. This would be the first instance of dorsal intakes in a manned stealth design and the second (after REPLICA) incarnation of the(correct me if I'm wrong) lambda wing, again in a manned platform.
I can sense envy in Flateric's mention of the large one-piece canopy; looks like Russian engineers have only recently mastered the technology required to construct T-50's glazing, quite unlike the Chinese, who don't seem to have a problem with this element( J-20). On the whole, I feel that, just like the Japanese in the 50s who acquired western technology only to develop, and often exceed it, the Chinese are now making quantum leaps in aerospace technology and are gradually leaving the Russians behind, ever gaining on the US. I'm sorry Flateric, but that's the harsh reality.
The existence of a design to replace the JH-7, already outdated at its inception as a 'Jaguar on steroids' is only logical, the only question being how quickly it will be turned into metal. I can't stop wondering though what has happened to the mythical stealthy JH-7B, I hope they haven't dropped the project- if they did , chances are that they did so in favor of this new design. One way or another, just like Deino said, it's clear the Chinese are now developing new tactical and strategic bombers. Got to start chillin' champagne so it's ready when they pull the curtains on either machine.
 

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Foxglove said:
One word: awesome, if it's real. This would be the first instance of dorsal intakes in a manned stealth design and the second (after REPLICA) incarnation of the(correct me if I'm wrong) lambda wing, again in a manned platform.

Technically/aerodynamically speaking, the Have Blue, Tacit Blue, F-117A, B-2A, Bird of Prey, X-45, and X-47 all have dorsal inlets. Granted, the last two aren't manned, but all of the others are/were. Of course, those are just the designs we know about.
 

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Foxglove said:
One word: awesome, if it's real. This would be the first instance of dorsal intakes in a manned stealth design and the second (after REPLICA) incarnation of the(correct me if I'm wrong) lambda wing, again in a manned platform.
I can sense envy in Flateric's mention of the large one-piece canopy; looks like Russian engineers have only recently mastered the technology required to construct T-50's glazing, quite unlike the Chinese, who don't seem to have a problem with this element( J-20). On the whole, I feel that, just like the Japanese in the 50s who acquired western technology only to develop, and often exceed it, the Chinese are now making quantum leaps in aerospace technology and are gradually leaving the Russians behind, ever gaining on the US. I'm sorry Flateric, but that's the harsh reality.


He didn't say the glazing is too large for the Chinese to make. He said the size of the glazing didn't make sense, thus casting doubt on whether the design came from a real aerospace design group.
 

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Chuck4, and I didn't write it's too large for the Chinese to manufacture either, you've misunderstood me, as a matter of fact the new bomber's canopy doesn't seem to be bigger than on the T-50, so it's hardly a reason to question the authenticity of the design, even more, the sizeable windshield offering improved vision in the front/lower hemisphere might point to the aircraft's strike role ( cf A-10 or Su-34).
Sundog, of course you are right, my excuse is I had in mind paper/ windtunnel model designs rather than actual planes. Anyway, in the new generation of manned stealth dorsal intakes are a rarity.
 

flateric

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Foxglove said:
new bomber's canopy doesn't seem to be bigger than on the T-50, so it's hardly a reason to question the authenticity of the design,
key word is 'seem' and I don't understand, what it has to do with T-50
my lord, it's ENORMOUS! it wows "I'M STUPID FANCY DESIGN!"
Foxglove said:
even more, the sizeable windshield offering improved vision in the front/lower hemisphere might point to the aircraft's strike role ( cf A-10 or Su-34).
this one point to faster killing a pilot in action, friend of mine was in charge of T-60S crew survivability task, you know

well, I think we just should wait'n'see
 

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Going to be an expensive machine. No way in hell it will be down on the deck like an A10. If it's down low, there's also no reason for the dorsal intakes either. I'm a fan of the design, but aren't there some risks in announcing a coming Chinese aerospace supremacy at this point? They appear to have a LOT of prototypes, but the state of these programs is unknown, what real data do we have to indicate their capability, other than the way they look and supplementary internet rumors? We don't know how they fit in a system of systems, or netcentric battle plan. We don't really know the state of the indigenous engine program. We don't know the quality of the sensors or materials being used. We don't know numbers planned for production, cost of production, roadblocks that may appear going from prototyping to full rate production, etc etc. The type of issues surrounding the F35 program are bound to appear in foreign programs too, but we won't hear about them from the Chinese....

Certainly a lot to be excited about for Chinese aerospace fans. It's evident that the CCP is serious about improving it's air force. It pays to be more cautious with ones expectations though.
 

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Blitzo said:
It is obviously meant to emphasize speed, no disagreements there, but what about it exactly suggests low altitude penetration as opposed to high altitude cruising?

The relatively small swept wings appears to me to indicate high wing loading, which if it were on a real plane would suggest to me that higher importance was attached to low gust response, and good ride quality at low level, than to range at high altitude and sustained maneuverability.
 

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chuck4 said:
Blitzo said:
It is obviously meant to emphasize speed, no disagreements there, but what about it exactly suggests low altitude penetration as opposed to high altitude cruising?

The relatively small swept wings appears to me to indicate high wing loading, which if it were on a real plane would suggest to me that higher importance was attached to low gust response, and good ride quality at low level, than to range at high altitude and sustained maneuverability.


Why put the intakes and IR cooling exhaust trenches on the top though? That makes it more observable to look-down shoot-down radars. It would be the first VLO low altitude penetrator that anyone put in service. Also, it looks like the body will provide plenty of lift to augment the wings.
 

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...
 

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Avimimus

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The model doesn't seem to have a cockpit? I wonder if it is intended to be like the British Aerospace P.125? That could explain the display model (a bit of missinformation).

It is unlikely, but an interesting theory.
 

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The yellow model actually first appeared in 2010, as a sort of mini structural mock up.


The connection people are making is that the black aircraft model is a refinement of the 2010 structural/airframe proposal.
 

flateric

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it can't be 'structural mockup' by any means
it definitely flying stuff
 

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How come none of the fan made drawings based on the image of the model didn't notice the compound wing leading edge? I'd say it's pretty clear there's a viggen/tejas/pakfa wing leading edge layout going on there.
 

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totoro said:
How come none of the fan made drawings based on the image of the model didn't notice the compound wing leading edge? I'd say it's pretty clear there's a viggen/tejas/pakfa wing leading edge layout going on there.
There are two other obvious differences: rectangular tails on the model vs. trapezoid tails in the drawing and circular in cross-section nose on the model vs. wedged-shaped nose in the drawing.
Of interest are the 2D nozzles, this would be another first on a Chinese aircraft.
If you ask me, the drawings depict a much sexier design, alas chances are the original design has been souped up by a fan/fans exactly to make it look cooler.
 

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what range would said aircraft have? Would it cause problems with Japan? By the way this is my very first post to this forum.
 

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Either flateric wants to resurrect this topic to the top of this subforum 'Aerospace' or he wants to post some pictures of the JH-XX / "JH-20" later on.
"JH-20" CGIs: https://twitter.com/baiweinov/status/787289055226494976
 

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chuck4 said:
Blitzo said:
It is obviously meant to emphasize speed, no disagreements there, but what about it exactly suggests low altitude penetration as opposed to high altitude cruising?

The relatively small swept wings appears to me to indicate high wing loading, which if it were on a real plane would suggest to me that higher importance was attached to low gust response, and good ride quality at low level, than to range at high altitude and sustained maneuverability.

High wing loading? That's a wide flat fuselage that looks to generate at least 50% of lift and carry large volume of fuel. If real no way will be a lead sled thud down low. Medium to high altitude bomber with air to ground weapons and 2-4 medium-long range air to air self defense missiles. Maybe secondary role as air to air missile "magazine" to supplement the j-20.
 

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Cover of the May 2018 issue of Aerospace Knowledge magazine.

Source:
https://www.facebook.com/611223845748378/photos/pcb.867562456781181/867559203448173/?type=3&theater&ifg=1
 

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