RN Frigate choices in Falklands 1982

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I have always been intrigued by the fact that the RN sent 7 out of its 8 Type 21 frigates as against only 4 Leander and 2 Rothesay Type 12s.
I had assumed this was just a fluke or that the Type 12s had various NATO roles (especially the Ikara Leanders). But looking at it again, the 21s did ship a Mk8 4.5" and in some ships, 4 Exocets plus a Lynx helo.
Have found no comments about this in books or online. Destroyers were much more even, 2 Countys, 5 T42 and Bristol later on.
 
It may have had something to do with the fact that the Type 21s were fitted with the most advanced (and final)
version of the SeaCat SAM system (note the performance of its fire-control radar compared to earlier versions of
SeaCat). Even so, the Seacat system was still obsolete by the time of the Falklands war, but it was the only SAM
system available to many RN ships:

"GWS-24 is a system specially designed for armament of Type-21 frigates, the WSA-4 fire control system is combined
with the Type-912 detection radar (British analog of the Italian RTN-10 radar). This powerful I-band radar provides
detection of "aircraft" type targets at ranges up to 40 km and "cruise missile" type targets at ranges up to 20 km."

"Despite being obsolete, Seacat was still widely fielded by the Royal Navy during the Falklands war. Indeed, it was the
sole anti-aircraft defence of many ships. However, unlike the modern and more complex Sea Dart and Sea Wolf
systems, Seacat rarely misfired or refused to respond, in even the harshest conditions. It was capable of sustained
action, which compensated for its lack of speed, range and accuracy; and, more importantly, it was available in large
numbers."

See:


&

 
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Thank you for this. Sounds convincing. Poor old Seacat. Seacat 2 could have been the answer but Seawolf elbowed it. That went well...
 
IIRC modifications were made to Seacat to improve performance post Falklands. I believe one modification was to improve the altimeter to improve short range low level targeting.
 
Note that the Type 21's newer Mk. 8 4.5 inch gun, out-ranged the older Type 6 considerably (30,100 yds vs. 20,750 yds), and was an
effective shore bombardment weapon, though less reliable than the Type 6.

"As shore bombardment platforms and in lethal, accurate gunfire support for the Royal Marines and British Army landing at San Carlos,
they were superb, pinning down any possibility of Argentine army counterattack,"

"These guns proved to be less reliable than the older 4.5 inch Mark V gun (redesignated Mark 6 gun mounting) during the Falklands War,
being forced to cease fire on several occasions due to faults."

See:



&

 
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I remember that the procedure was to have a Type 21 as the primary shore bombardment asset but have a Type 12 or Leander standing by to take over if the Mk8 failed.

How did the performance of the Mk8 improve with the Mod1 variant.
 
I remember that the procedure was to have a Type 21 as the primary shore bombardment asset but have a Type 12 or Leander standing by to take over if the Mk8 failed.

How did the performance of the Mk8 improve with the Mod1 variant.

Not sure, but the Mk. 8 did get a new stealthier mounting and other improvements. There was also a proposal to build a 155mm version, but that was cancelled:

"The latest 4.5" (11.4 cm) mounting, the "Electric Gun" Mark 8 Mod 1, is a boxier-looking mounting that is designed to reduce the radar cross section. RO Defence, a division of British Aerospace Systems (BAE), was awarded the contract in 1998 for the full development, production and support of this new weapon system. The Mod 1 uses electric motors for almost all functions in place of the hydraulic actuators and servos used on Mod 0 except for those motions on the elevating mass. These changes improve safety, reduce power consumption and cut the overall mounting weight by 3.7 tons (4 mt). Lower deck space requirements have also been substantially reduced. Some Mod 1 mounts will receive a special antenna as part of the Experimental Course-Corrected Shell Program."

"it was proposed that later units might use the 155 mm Naval Gun. However, both the follow on ships and the 155 mm gun were later canceled."

See:



Note that the Royal Navy will be switching to 5-inch guns in future warships:

"Last year, BAE received a $245 million contract from the Ministry of Defence to provide the gun system, known as the Maritime Indirect Fires System (MIFS), for the Type 26 Global Combat Ship. Under the contract, the company will manufacture three MIFS Integrated Gunnery Systems (IGS) and one trainer system for the UK Royal Navy. The MIFS IGS includes the 5-inch, 62-caliber Mk 45 Mod 4 Naval Gun System, along with an automated ammunition handling system, gun fire control system, and qualified ammunition.

The Mk 45 naval gun is widely used by the US Navy and allied nations."

See:



Amusingly, some in the British media interpreted this the wrong way:

"A British tabloid made an embarrassing error Friday, writing a hysterical piece that incorrectly reported the Defence Ministry had paid hundreds of millions of pounds to buy a five-inch-long gun.

“We just blew £183m on a five-inch gun, but it’s ‘a good value for taxpayers,’” read the outraged headline from The Daily Star. The subheadline also reinforced that the author believed the gun was literally five inches, calling it “the length of a toothbrush.”

The only problem? Five-inch guns are named after their caliber, not their length. They shoot munitions that are five inches in diameter, meaning the guns themselves are necessarily huge."

See:

 
Ah the Daily Star, to be honest they are more at home with celeb stories featuring scantily clad females and doom-laden weather predictions. They shouldn't really be let loose on proper news stories.
 
Amusingly, some in the British media interpreted this the wrong way:

"A British tabloid made an embarrassing error Friday, writing a hysterical piece that incorrectly reported the Defence Ministry had paid hundreds of millions of pounds to buy a five-inch-long gun.

“We just blew £183m on a five-inch gun, but it’s ‘a good value for taxpayers,’” read the outraged headline from The Daily Star. The subheadline also reinforced that the author believed the gun was literally five inches, calling it “the length of a toothbrush.”

You really couldn't make it up :D
 
It's not just journalists.
During the Falklands conflict we had to send a Tigerfish torpedo to another RN Armament Depot but didn't have a spare lorry. The rather exasperated lady at the Endsleigh (a headquarters office) said "Can't you just put it in a car boot? After all it's only 21 inches long...."
My colleague had to explain to her that a Tigerfish was 21 inches in diameter and weighed about 2 tons.

The upside was I got detailed to take visiting HQ staff round the various storehouses to show them what the weapons really looked like; most of them had never seen them in the flesh before. And I always showed them my precious Seaslugs!

SRJ.
 
It's not just journalists.
During the Falklands conflict we had to send a Tigerfish torpedo to another RN Armament Depot but didn't have a spare lorry. The rather exasperated lady at the Endsleigh (a headquarters office) said "Can't you just put it in a car boot? After all it's only 21 inches long...."
My colleague had to explain to her that a Tigerfish was 21 inches in diameter and weighed about 2 tons.

The upside was I got detailed to take visiting HQ staff round the various storehouses to show them what the weapons really looked like; most of them had never seen them in the flesh before. And I always showed them my precious Seaslugs!

SRJ.
Ah those days before Google became your friend!

Maybe someone should show the Daily Star journo how to use it!!
 
I remember watching a news article showing a new Minister of Defence; can remember which, who didn't know what an IRBM was when looking at a photo of one.
 
I remember watching a news article showing a new Minister of Defence; can remember which, who didn't know what an IRBM was when looking at a photo of one.
There seems to be a tendency among insecure prime ministers (mentioning no names) to avoid appointing ministers who actually know their subject (e.g. former military officers in a defence role). This may be through fear of them "going native" and fighting the services' corner, or concern that they might raise very practical disadvantages of the PM's favoured schemes (which typically involve a superficially convincing but actually idiotic way of saving money...).
 
Do many ex-services politicians still exist?
Mind you we moan enough about the Ministers of the 1930s-70s and they all had ample wartime experience.
 
I believe Sir Humphrey had the right idea about ministers being experts in their chosen ministry. Never worked. Better to be amateurs. ;)
 
Thank you for this. Sounds convincing. Poor old Seacat. Seacat 2 could have been the answer but Seawolf elbowed it. That went well...

SeaCat (and SeaSlug) might have run up a higher score if the Argentines had gone through with their Torpedo Bomber plan:

"In early May 1982, during a joint Argentine navy / air force planning session at Puerto Belgrano, it was mentioned that the navy still had long-warehoused Mk13 torpedoes. These WWII-manufactured weapons had been drained of all fluids and stored carefully in 1960, and might be restored to running order now 22 years later.

This seemed to possibly be the answer the Argentines were looking for. Mk13s could be airlifted to the islands aboard C-130 Hercules transports, then mounted on Pucaras already there. Once so fitted, they could repeatedly take off and attack the nearby Royal Navy flotilla."



I wonder if any of those Pucaras would have lasted long enough to drop their torpedoes?
 
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On the subject of the Type 21 Frigates:

"The Pakistan Navy held a live-fire drill in the North Arabian Sea on January 12, during which it sank another one of the former Royal Navy Amazon-class frigates.

Pakistan acquired a total of six Amazon-class (or Type 21) frigates in the 1990s as they were retired from Royal Navy service.

Just last year, Pakistan sank Type 21 frigate PNS Tippu Sultan, which was formerly known as HMS Avenger, in a similar drill. It is yet unclear exactly which ship was used as the target in most recent exercise.

According to video footage shared by the Pakistan Navy, the target ship was hit by ordnance from an Agosta-class submarine and a Zulfiqar-class frigate."

See:

 
Thank you for this. Sounds convincing. Poor old Seacat. Seacat 2 could have been the answer but Seawolf elbowed it. That went well...

SeaCat (and SeaSlug) might have run up a higher score if the Argentines had gone through with their Torpedo Bomber plan:

"In early May 1982, during a joint Argentine navy / air force planning session at Puerto Belgrano, it was mentioned that the navy still had long-warehoused Mk13 torpedoes. These WWII-manufactured weapons had been drained of all fluids and stored carefully in 1960, and might be restored to running order now 22 years later.

This seemed to possibly be the answer the Argentines were looking for. Mk13s could be airlifted to the islands aboard C-130 Hercules transports, then mounted on Pucaras already there. Once so fitted, they could repeatedly take off and attack the nearby Royal Navy flotilla."



I wonder if any of those Pucaras would have lasted long enough to drop their torpedoes?

Well, if they were below 1,000 feet Seaslug would have had a less than 25% chance of hitting one.

SRJ.
 
The trouble is we now have so many 'professional' politicians who go into politics direct from university, they have no life experience just theories that they were taught.
Interesting perspective JohnR.
This resonates with me, as I resently heard that in Australian politics, something like 70% of politicians were 'staffers' of politicians themselves.....
Which I think supports your notion of 'professional politicians & no real life experience.'

Regards
Pioneer
 

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