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"Rheintochter" VTOL and "Dietl-Jäger"

moin1900

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Hi everybody

Maybe this topic is interesting for you, too ?
There are very nice pictures !

Manned Rheintochter first version
Manned Rheintochter second version
A so called “Raketenrevolver”

And the “Dietl-Jäger”
A very mysterious plane ! It should be a flying rocket launcher !
Manned or Unmanned ? Maybe somebody knows more about this strange plane ?
Maybe somebody knows who or what is Dietl?

Please look here
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,20061.0.html

Many greetings
 

lark

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These information was taken from the 'Luftfahrt Historie' series
published by Lautech Medien Gmbh.

(Volume about the Bachem Ba 349 Natter)
 

PlanesPictures

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A few pictures
 

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Grzesio

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This piloted Rheintochter looks improbably to me.
1. What was to be the pilot's position? I'd say prone on the belly, as weapon system occupied almost the whole nose (especially the revolver launcher), but...
2. The external fuselage diameter is approx. 50-60 cm, too small to accommodate a man with any space left for movements.
3. If we assume, the pilot was prone (somehow), the rear fuselage section is approx. 2 m. long. There's no space left for fuel feeding the powerful engine - also in the nose. If you look at the R III missile, practically its half was made of fuel tanks.

Regards

Grzesio
 

RdsG46

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I have found a Luftfahrt History 13. I uploaded the drawings from it. The drawings has german and english captions too. I guess these drawing are post war copies.
My german knowledge is poor but if I am right there were Rheinmetall RIIIb (Bemannte Rheintochter) windtunnel models. IMHO this project is as serious as the Triebflügel or Lerche/Wespe projects.


Four winged version would lift off with a kind off RATO, and land via parachute.

It was an insane project but it's real.
 

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jzichek

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Fantastic! Thanks very much for sharing...been looking for documentary confirmation of this design for some time.
 

Nik

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Could they be 4-inch / 10cm rather than 2"/5cm rockets in those tubes ??


Could a prone pilot plus the ventral engine leave just enough room for fuel for an ME-163 style firing pass...
 

Orionblamblam

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Hmm. Note that the English-language captions are in the same style, and seem to be even the same handwriting, as the German captions. This would indicate that the English was written at the same time as the German. This would not happen in wartime. This *might* be the result of a post-war re-drawing for an English language report for the US or UK militaries. Or it *might* be the result of a *recent* origin of the drawings.

But it does seem to argue against these being actual wartime diagrams.
 

Jemiba

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As far as I found out via Google, the "Work Centre Unterlüß" seems to have been an organisation, which
made reports about German developments in collaboration with German technical personal and, if available,
using original sources. If in this case, there were any original drawings is hard to tell, I think and if the
information given by the Germans there were always credible, is just another question.
 

robunos

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What rings alarm bells for me is the name; 'Rheintochter'.
We know there was a missile project of the same name.
would they use the same name again?
Or is this effectively a manned version of the missile?


Cheers,
Robin.
 

RdsG46

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The original source of the Luftfahrt article : H.E.C.N. report No.271 zur bemannten "Rheintochter", 23. Juli 1947 [34 pages]
I wonder what is H.E.C.N. ???

I attached the article. I hope someone could read it and summarize it for us.
 

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RdsG46

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Some people say this aircraft is too small for manned flight, or it couldn't hold enough fuel. So I did some measurements and a little research: It's a really small jet aircraft, but not smaller than the Natter or Bede BD-5 jet. Some small sailplanes have even smaller cockpits.
Since it would lift off with rocket assistance a really small amount of fuel would be enough for the flight. It's mission profile is comparable to Natter's so I guess it's flight time wouldn't be longer than 3-5 minutes.
 

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Jemiba

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robunos said:
What rings alarm bells for me is the name; 'Rheintochter'.
We know there was a missile project of the same name.
would they use the same name again?
Or is this effectively a manned version of the missile?


Cheers,
Robin.

I would second Robunos, as there seems just to be jus a superficial similarity, but not
the use of components of the missile. Ok, maybe the name of this project was lost/forgotten
and this designation was only used post-war ?
 

hesham

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Hi,


in article about Rheintochter in Luftfahrt,I found this strange project,what
was that ?.
 

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Jemiba

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"During the last months of the war, several peculiar aircraft were designed. One of the strangest
proposals may have been the so-called "Dietl-Jäger", obviously a flying rocket launcher. There are
several reasons, that the only known sketch of this design is shown here. it shos, that the manned
"Rheintocher" actually isn't that strange, there were "much worse" proposals. And we would like to
know, if amongst our readers perhaps there's someone, who has specific information about abstruse
thing"

That's the translation of the caption, which clearly shows, that the authors didn't put much faith in
that sketch.
 

shedofdread

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As shown in the sketch, that thing would appear to have neither yaw nor pitch stability so whoever wrote that caption was quite right to inject an air of the dubious into proceedings.

As to control or propulsion..?
 

Vladimir

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Hi, it is a very interesting concept. Misterious "Dietl-Jäger"! Did any have 3-view?
 

hesham

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Vladimir said:
Hi, it is a very interesting concept. Misterious "Dietl-Jäger"! Did any have 3-view?

Hi vladimir,

I will try to find 3-view drawing.
 

Jemiba

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Playing the role of the Doubting Thomas again, but unless we get confirmation
by reliable sources (and that means, that the names Friedrich Georg, Henry
Stevens or Rob Arndt shouldn't show up ..) those types are better suited to
this section here !
Jozefs great pictures clearly show the infamous "Junkers-Klagenfurt Klf 255"
(http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,17131.msg154889.html#msg154889 ),
that drawing from the "Work Centre Unterlüß" can hardly be regarded as a
very trustworthy source for what was actually designed or built and about the
"Dietl Jäger" the description here http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4476.msg215217.html#msg215217
already made quite clear, what to think about it !
 

Vladimir

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hesham said:
Vladimir said:
Hi, it is a very interesting concept. Misterious "Dietl-Jäger"! Did any have 3-view?

Hi vladimir,

I will try to find 3-view drawing.

Oh, Thank You very much, Jemiba, it will be exsellent!
 

archipeppe

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No, seriously some of RLM did ever considered those...emh stuff for real????
 

Jemiba

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"...
quote from hesham
quote from Vladimir:

Hi, it is a very interesting concept. Misterious "Dietl-Jäger"! Did any have 3-view?"

"Hi vladimir,

I will try to find 3-view drawing."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe there's at least a small chance, that it isn't a total fake (that means, not just
"invented" to be taken for real by German-Secret-Projects-Fans), but perhaps the result of
interrogations of German POW after WW II. Then it could show, what the cousin of a friend
of the one interrogated was told after the fifth beer. And then maybe a sketch was made, what that
thing looked like. And such sketches seem often to have been madeas perspective drawings only, not 3-views.

If so, I wouldn't be sure, that front and rear end of the "Dietl-Jäger" weren't mixed up.
Perhaps someone had seen the nose part of a V2, asked someone and got the answer
"Oh, that's the very secret "Dietl-Jäger" !" ? Then that funny chap could still be laughing
today, as we are still trying to catch phantoms ! ;D
 

Michel Van

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There is another issue to this

After the War all high rank office or officials were interrogations on Nazi Programs
but those people were mostly not technical educated, but placed as Head of program because there Loyalty towards Nazi Party.
What let to situation were high rang SS Öberstrumbandfüher who was carpenter, try to explain translator (also without technical schooling) a Nazi high tech program he was responsible for...

This let series of sometime hilarious documentation...
 

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