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Republic F-105 Projects

Pioneer

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I found this on another Forum sight

In late 1962 or early 1963, Republic proposed the F-105H, with a new wing of 448 square feet, two seats, new landing gear, vertical fin, stabilator, new nose, etc. This was really a new design, and the USAF did not go for it.

They are looking for pictures or drawings of this proposed upgrade of the Thunderchief

Can you help?

Regards
Pioneer
 

Skybolt

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In a Korean ( :eek: ) site I found only the following: the machine was a 1962 development of the F-105F with a new engine ( JT4B-24 ) . The site mentioned another project, the AP.63-19, that seems was a version proposed to Canada, France and UK as a standard heavy NATO fighter-bomber.
 

sferrin

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Skybolt said:
In a Korean ( :eek: ) site I found only the following: the machine was a 1962 development of the F-105F with a new engine ( JT4B-24 ) . The site mentioned another project, the AP.63-19, that seems was a version proposed to Canada, France and UK as a standard heavy NATO fighter-bomber.
Wasn't the JT4 the J58? Seems I've read of version of the F-106 (F-106X I believe), and the Crusader III also were considered for the J58. And of course the Hustler.

(Nevermind. Just checked it out and it's the J-75. Anybody know anything about the JT4B-24 varient? The article on the XF8U-3 Crusader III in an issue of Classic Wings mentions a couple versions, one at about 29,500lbs thrust and another at ~28,000lbs but doesn't give the designations. In fact IIRC at least one of the three prototypes were powered by the 29k version.)
 

Sentinel Chicken

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sferrin said:
Skybolt said:
In a Korean ( :eek: ) site I found only the following: the machine was a 1962 development of the F-105F with a new engine ( JT4B-24 ) . The site mentioned another project, the AP.63-19, that seems was a version proposed to Canada, France and UK as a standard heavy NATO fighter-bomber.

Wasn't the JT4 the J58? Seems I've read of version of the F-106 (F-106X I believe), and the Crusader III also were considered for the J58. And of course the Hustler.
I think the JT4 is the civilian designation for the J75......I think there were PW plans for a turbofan version of the JT4, but it would have overlapped with their work they'd already done on the JT8D.
 

SOC

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Pretty sure the J-58 was JT11. I recall seeing the designation JT11D-2 associated with the Blackbird program before.
 

Skybolt

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Uh, forgot, the Korean site (in Korean, so I use a translation via Babelfish...) says that the engine of the F-105H was rated at 30.000 lbs.
 

elmayerle

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SOC said:
Pretty sure the J-58 was JT11. I recall seeing the designation JT11D-2 associated with the Blackbird program before.
J-58 as fitted to the Blackbird family was, I believe, the JT11B-20. P&W internal designations of that period had the "D" after the model number as a designator of a turbofan. For instance, JT3B was the J75 while JT3D was the TF33 or the JT8B became the J52 but with a rework to the l-p compressor to make it a fan, you get the JT8D, originally done for a somewhat paniced Boeing on the original 727 when RR's intransignance almost killed the program.
 

overscan

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Photo of the two seat F-105C mockup.

Source:
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13327&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=420
 

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aim9xray

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I have wondered (since first seeing this image in Bob Archer's F-105 book[let]) if this was a rebuild of the earlier F-105A mockup...note the smaller vertical stabilizer and the total lack of area rule.
 

smurf

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Does anyone have a good three-view of the first prototype F105, please?
 

Stargazer2006

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Beautiful! Thanks for sharing.
 

aim9xray

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circle-5 said:
Factory concept model of the Republic AP-74 twin-engine, supersonic long range interceptor. F-103 derived airfoils are noteworthy.
Is that AP-74 or AP-75?
 

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Maveric

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Hi circle-5,

do you have some technical details for the AP.74?

Thanks
 

circle-5

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Yes, AP-75, now corrected. Circle-5 regrets the error.
 

robunos

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The picture in reply#5 :- we need to see the rest of it!
Fron what I can see of the other models' captions, 'XF12', 'submarine',
some very interesting things await......

cheers,
Robin.
 

circle-5

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robunos said:
The picture in reply#5 :- we need to see the rest of it!
From what I can see of the other models' captions, 'XF12', 'submarine',
some very interesting things await......

cheers, Robin.
The AP-75 photo supplied by aim9xray is from a 2-page article in Aviation Week & Space Technology, dated May 12, 1958 (see attached scans). The article covers the Republic Aircraft Open House event, which took place that month in Farmingdale. The AP-75 was part of the design competition that led to the F-108, including the Grumman G-107, McDonnell 110A and others. Additional models featured here include the XF-103, AP-55, AP-63 and NP-52 (which looks surprisingly like the S2F, designed not far from there. Did someone at Grumman leave the door open?) Note: NP- is Navy Project, AP- is Air Force.
 

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Stargazer2006

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Wow, brilliant. How I wish aircraft manufacturers still did those "open house" exhibitions!
 

Pioneer

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overscan said:
Photo of the two seat F-105C mockup.

Source:
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13327&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=420
Is it just me or does that F-105C mock-up seem to have a real fighter type cockpit canopy?
If so was this due to the experiance of the air war over Vietnam?
Is there a 3-view drawing of the 'F-105C'?

Regards
Pioneer
 

AL

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The F-105C was from 1956. They used a JF-105B fuselage to make the F-105C mockup.
 

robunos

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The AP-75 photo supplied by aim9xray is from a 2-page article in Aviation Week & Space Technology, dated May 12, 1958 (see attached scans).
Thanks for that. Was rather hoping that the 'AP-75' picture was a crop from a larger picture, but never mind....... :)

cheers,
Robin.
 

aim9xray

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AL said:
The F-105C was from 1956. They used a JF-105B fuselage to make the F-105C mockup.
I'm not entirely sure that the data supports that - if by "JF-105B" you mean one of the three former RF-105Bs - that is unlikely as all three flew (being used as stores separation testbeds) and two survived well into the seventies, with the real 54-0105 still on display today at Lackland AFB.

The confusion may be from the photo caption in Archer's book where he noted that "The fuselage appears to be that of the first JF-105B-1 RE (54-0105)". This speculation is supported only by the serial number painted on the mockup and not by its physical configuration.

In fact, the image posted shows the mockup to be a hybrid - exhibiting the non-area ruled fuselage and short vertical stabilizer of the F-105A, F-105B-type intakes, and of course the F-105C canopy.

Incidentally, one of the reasons that I believe that the F-105C (version of F-105B) and F-105E (version of F-105D) were not accepted by the Air Force is that Republic did not extend the forward fuselage; the second crew station reduced the internal fuel capacity.

The F-105F that was eventually produced was stretched 30.5 inches to add the second cockpit with no reduction in internal fuel, but with the effect of increasing the empty weight of the aircraft and requiring a larger vertical stabilizer.
 

aim9xray

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I had intended to post some Standard Aircraft Characteristics (SAC) charts for the RF-105B, F-105C and F-105E, but Ryan already has them (from the same source) at his website here along with those for the F-105A (including 3-views).

The RF-105B art from my copy came out nicely so I'll post it. Of interest are the dual external 20mm M-39 external cannon pods. Also (for the designationistas), the SAC notes that this is Republic model AP-71. Republic AP numbers from other SACs are:

F-105A:AP 63
F-105B:AP 63
RF-105B:AP-71
F-105C:AP 63-5
F-105D:AP 63-31
F-105E:AP 63-33


Edit: correct link
 

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elmayerle

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I've seen references over the years to an Olumpus-powered F-105 version proposed to the RAF and an Iroquois-powered version proposed to the RCAF. 'Twould be interesting to find more info on both.
 

Stargazer2006

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Thanks a lot, aim9xray!

This settles the question of whether the Model AP-63-31 applied to all variants, as some sources said, or only a specific one...
 

aim9xray

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Funny that you should mention that... The late Dave Anderton in his excellent Osprey Air Combat Republic F-105 Thunderchief (1983) in a small Appendix titled "AP Designations" wrote:

"First, the F-105 was not Republic AP 63-31. It was simply AP 63, maybe with a dash between the AP and the number and maybe not. It depended on who was writing it. Further, the derivation of AP depends on who was remembering it. Most Republic people now call it Advanced Project. Older hands remember it as a holdover from the Seversky days, and the designation of Army Project"
(author's emphasis)

Combining Anderton's data with my previous list yields:

AP NumberDesignationTimeframe CommentsSource
AP 63F-105A1954SAC Chart
AP 63F-105B1955 SAC Chart
AP 63-5F-105C1955Mockup photos in multiple sources.SAC Chart
AP-63-10-- --Two place all weather F-105 Anderton
AP-63-19-- July 1960Proposal for British, French, German Co-production. British offered option of Olympus B.01.22R. Anderton states F-105D. Anderton
AP-63-19E(?)----Proposal to Canada for strike attack Interceptor Day Fighter Limited All Weather F-105 with Orenda engine. (Note: “Limited all-weather” implies that proposal is based on F-105B -or- F-105D with alternate avionics) Anderton
AP-63-26----Proposal to Luftwaffe for F-105D versionAnderton
AP 63-31*F-105D1957“All-weather” version of F-105B, revised avionics/radar.SAC Chart
AP-63-32----Proposal to Canada : F-105 with advanced Iroquois engineAnderton
AP 63-33F-105E1957-8Two-seat, reduced fuel version of F-105D. Anderton has photo of prototype under construction. SAC Chart
AP-63-??F-105F1961-2 *SAC Chart also lists F-105F as AP-63-31 which is unlikely, may be transposed from -31RE block number?
AP-63-36--Sept 1958Proposal for SR-196 Tactical Strike – Reconnaissance System. Fuselage stretch may have been basis for F-105F.Anderton
AP-63-??“F-105G”early 1962Conversion of F-105D to two seat, uprated engine (JT4B-24), added fuel in saddle and speedbump tanks. Anderton
AP-63-??"F-105H"mid-1962Revised fuselage, added fuel, new wing (added area; folding wingtips) and stabilator, tandem wheel MLG, uprated engineAnderton
--F-105G1966Air Force conversion of F-105F to EW Weasel – superseded tentative “EF-105F” designation.
AP-63-??“F-105D-35RE”1968Republic proposal for remanufacture of F-105D fleet with T-Stick II, more fuel, new pylons, possibly rebuilt wing.Anderton
AP-71RF-105B1954SAC Chart


Anderton also lists these miscellaneous additional AP numbers:

AP 95 Air-to-Surface ballistic Missile (to fit in F-105 weapons bay)
AP 96 Man-in-Space vehicle, proposed to Air Force
AP 99 Strategic air-to-surface ballistic missile
AP 100 VTOL fighter-bomber
AP 106 Parametric study for VTOL aircraft
 

nugo

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Hi aim9xray!

If there is in this book, except for information, pictures or drawings of the following projects?

AP-63-10
AP-63-19
AP-63-19E
AP-63-26
AP-63-32
AP-63-36

"F-105G"
"F-105H"
"F-105D-35RE"

AP-95
AP-96
AP-99
AP-106

After your answer, due to financial constraints, I will think to buy or not buy this book (If the book will be good news for me, then I will try to buy the book).

Many thanks in advance.
 

aim9xray

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Alas, no.

However, of the books on the Thud, I rate this as one of the best, along with the soft cover by Robert Archer. Anderton has some of the same photos as the earlier Archer effort (F-105C mockup, etc), but they are much larger reproductions.

Highly recommended, if you can find a inexpensive copy!
 

overscan

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Indeed, no. Good book about the F-105 though.
 

fightingirish

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Some pictures of the Republic AP-75 (1958) published in the book "American Secret Projects" can be seen under this link.
Link: http://forum.avionslegendaires.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6241
Due to copyright and forum rules, please do not attach the pictures!
 

JFC Fuller

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Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere. I have been looking at the post war history of TAC and one aircraft has come up about which I previously knew nothing (although it does appear in the list above, thank you hugo)- the F-105E, Flight International from 1962 the time says the following:

The US Air Force has placed an $8m (£2.25m) contract with Republic Aviation for a tandem-seat, all-weather mission- training version of the F-105 Thunderchief, designated F-105E. It will be 31in longer and have a taller fin.

However this is obviously the F-105F and the article even mentions mentions that the 'same project was originally cancelled in 1959'. Apparently that cancellation drove Grumman to lay-off 2,300 staff. Does anybody know if the E was to have been the same as the F that eventually emerged? Furthermore does anybody know how many F-105's were planned prior to McNamara pushing the ISAF to but the Phantom?
 

JFC Fuller

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Well thank you for my education Overscan. ;)


To answer one of my own questions, apparently original plans called for 1,500. Congress authorised a total of 1,188 of which 833 were delivered. I have not found out how many TAC wings were planned to be equipped with the type and planned TAC strength vacillated dramatically from the mid-50s through to the mid 60s. The RF-105 was cancelled in July 1956 and the F-105C was killed in 1957. The F-105E was itself cancelled in March 1959.

Edit: According to "Republic F-105 Thunderchief" by Peter Davies the early 1961 plans for F-105 deployment were for 14 TAC wings. In FY61 there were 16 authorised TAC Fighter Wings (out of a USAF total of 88); adding a couple of F/RF-101 wings would have completed the authorised levee. Mcnamara raised the number of TAC fighter wings dramatically in the 70s.
 

r16

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aim9xray said:
Funny that you should mention that... The late Dave Anderton in his excellent Osprey Air Combat Republic F-105 Thunderchief (1983) in a small Appendix titled "AP Designations" wrote:
Combining Anderton's data with my previous list yields:
...
AP-63-36--Sept 1958Proposal for SR-196 Tactical Strike – Reconnaissance System. Fuselage stretch may have been basis for F-105F.Anderton
AP-63-??“F-105G”early 1962Conversion of F-105D to two seat, uprated engine (JT4B-24), added fuel in saddle and speedbump tanks. Anderton
AP-63-??"F-105H"mid-1962Revised fuselage, added fuel, new wing (added area; folding wingtips) and stabilator, tandem wheel MLG, uprated engineAnderton
ı have seen the book in question and have so far failed to find further references to those 63-36 , 105G with the B-24 engine and the H . Anything that can be shown to non-author members ?
 

TomcatViP

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Yes sorry. I will delete the link.. You may want to browse directly Jeff Galloway facebook page ;)
 
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