Replacing the British Army rifle

[JohnR]

Just my usual question re acronyms LMT? I caught sight of DMW as my eyes landed on the post was quite proud of myself when I found I had worked it ought when I read your post fully and found I was right?

 

[TomS]

Just my usual question re acronyms LMT? I caught sight of DMW as my eyes landed on the post was quite proud of myself when I found I had worked it ought when I read your post fully and found I was right?

LMT is the short name of the company that makes it (Lewis Machine & Tool)

 

[marauder2048]

Again, we discussing primarily special forces.

Except the HK417 seems to have gone as much to the regular army as anyone else.

That practically all NATO and Allied armies got short barreled 7.62 DMR religion over the last decade
is not a coincidence; NGSW-R is essentially trying to get 7.62 DMR performance out of lighter weight
ammo in a slightly smaller form factor.

According to wikipedia:

Australian Army acquired 16″ 'Recce' variants paired with 6× ACOG for a designated marksman solution for use in Afghanistan and afterwards

A "marksman solution" is intended to supplement, not replace the main service rifle. Again, this is for special forces - SASR and Commando Regt., not for the RAR. The SASR and Commando Regt. have different rules to how they operate and how they procure weapons. The SASR and Commando Regt. use M4 rifles, not F88 ones. There is a world of difference between the capabilities of the two rifles. The F88 has a standard 20 inch barrel, whereas the M4 has only at it's longest, an 18 inch one and quite often only a 14 inch one.

And if you keep reading wikipedia, you'll find the HK417 ended up in RAR fireteams where it replaced the F88S.
That's easily confirmed by the photos taken by the US and Australian combat photographers; you'll find plenty of
RAR unit elements equipped with it.

And the HK417 doesn't seem to have fully displaced the longer barreled SR-25s and M14 EBRs with the SASR and Commando Regts.

7.62 DMRs are heinously expensive and heavy (weapon/ammo) and logistically burdensome so you couldn't
replace the main service rifle with them unless you had some commitment to purchase them en masse
and some way to reduce their weight/logistics burden. Enter NGSW...

 

[JohnR]

Just my usual question re acronyms LMT? I caught sight of DMW as my eyes landed on the post was quite proud of myself when I found I had worked it ought when I read your post fully and found I was right?

LMT is the short name of the company that makes it (Lewis Machine & Tool)

Thanks. Now you have said that; I don't remember the name , but I do remember when the DMW was adopted there was some fuss over the manufacturer stamping the weapons with a number that had a reference to a bible quotation.

 

[marauder2048]

Just my usual question re acronyms LMT? I caught sight of DMW as my eyes landed on the post was quite proud of myself when I found I had worked it ought when I read your post fully and found I was right?

LMT is the short name of the company that makes it (Lewis Machine & Tool)

Thanks. Now you have said that; I don't remember the name , but I do remember when the DMW was adopted there was some fuss over the manufacturer stamping the weapons with a number that had a reference to a bible quotation.

On the ACOG sights?

 

[JohnR]

I can't remember exactly, I just remember the potential biblical quote and that it could have been perceived as being an indication of a new 'Crusade'!!!

 

[Rickshaw]

Again, we discussing primarily special forces.

Except the HK417 seems to have gone as much to the regular army as anyone else.

That practically all NATO and Allied armies got short barreled 7.62 DMR religion over the last decade
is not a coincidence; NGSW-R is essentially trying to get 7.62 DMR performance out of lighter weight
ammo in a slightly smaller form factor.

According to wikipedia:

Australian Army acquired 16″ 'Recce' variants paired with 6× ACOG for a designated marksman solution for use in Afghanistan and afterwards

A "marksman solution" is intended to supplement, not replace the main service rifle. Again, this is for special forces - SASR and Commando Regt., not for the RAR. The SASR and Commando Regt. have different rules to how they operate and how they procure weapons. The SASR and Commando Regt. use M4 rifles, not F88 ones. There is a world of difference between the capabilities of the two rifles. The F88 has a standard 20 inch barrel, whereas the M4 has only at it's longest, an 18 inch one and quite often only a 14 inch one.

And if you keep reading wikipedia, you'll find the HK417 ended up in RAR fireteams where it replaced the F88S.
That's easily confirmed by the photos taken by the US and Australian combat photographers; you'll find plenty of
RAR unit elements equipped with it.

And the HK417 doesn't seem to have fully displaced the longer barreled SR-25s and M14 EBRs with the SASR and Commando Regts.

7.62 DMRs are heinously expensive and heavy (weapon/ammo) and logistically burdensome so you couldn't
replace the main service rifle with them unless you had some commitment to purchase them en masse
and some way to reduce their weight/logistics burden. Enter NGSW...

Where is that mentioned in Wikipedia? I cannot find any reference to the DMW ending up "where it replaced the F88S".

 

[marauder2048]

Where is that mentioned in Wikipedia? I cannot find any reference to the DMW ending up "where it replaced the F88S".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designated_marksman

Australian Army
A typical Australian Army fireteam of four soldiers will include a scout employing an F88S Austeyr (5.56 NATO) fitted with an enhanced optic device, usually either an ACOG or ELCAN C79. Additionally, 7.62 mm marksman rifles (SR-25s) are employed by the maneuver support teams in the platoon.[9] However, HK417 rifles have been procured by the Army as a substitute for the F88S during operations in Afghanistan and possibly thereafter.[10] The SASR also uses the Mk 14 EBR amongst its four-man infantry sections.[11][dead link]

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1369719
https://www.dvidshub.net/image/9860...ide-perimeter-security-uruzgan-coalition-base

 

[Rickshaw]

Well you learn something new every day. As far as I am aware, these are not intended to replace the F88 but to complement them.

 

[bob225]

Of interest, more units not wanting or trusting the SA80?:

British Army Special Operations Brigade looking for new rifle

The new rifle will be issued to the British Army's new 'Special Operations Brigade'.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

 

[BLACK_MAMBA]

Of interest, more units not wanting or trusting the SA80:

British Army Special Operations Brigade looking for new rifle

The new rifle will be issued to the British Army's new 'Special Operations Brigade'.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Not sure that is the conclusion drawn from the article...

Specialised units uave often utilised different weapons from that used by regular infantry so this isn't new. The sheer abundance of AR extras that have been developed to military standards over the years will further contribute to it being the platform of choice for specialised units where personal customization of weapons are often possible.

They will have other reasons too - weight, handling etc but these units will have differing requirements than those required/accepted for general service personnel. Being less adaptable to specialised roles is about the only criticsm I can read between the lines as a statement on L85A2/A3 from that article.

 

[bob225]

Of interest, more units not wanting or trusting the SA80:

British Army Special Operations Brigade looking for new rifle

The new rifle will be issued to the British Army's new 'Special Operations Brigade'.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Not sure that is the conclusion drawn from the article...

Specialised units uave often utilised different weapons from that used by regular infantry so this isn't new. The sheer abundance of AR extras that have been developed to military standards over the years will further contribute to it being the platform of choice for specialised units where personal customization of weapons are often possible.

They will have other reasons too - weight, handling etc but these units will have differing requirements than those required/accepted for general service personnel. Being less adaptable to specialised roles is about the only criticsm I can read between the lines as a statement on L85A2/A3 from that article.

Agreed Black Mamba, sorry should of put a question mark after my statement.

I think the big difference here is the size of the brigade rather than just smaller specialised units. Plus i'm sure the Royal Marines have stated they are getting rid of SA80 / want AR style kit.

Yes i think the A3 is rolling out at the moment? so it'll be around for a few years yet.

Units such as pathfinders have been using AR's for a good number of years

 

[Tony Williams]

Of interest, more units not wanting or trusting the SA80?:

British Army Special Operations Brigade looking for new rifle

The new rifle will be issued to the British Army's new 'Special Operations Brigade'.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

The main issue is I suspect the use of a wide range of ammo types. BAE have for a long time produced two different ball loadings for the 5.56mm - one for the SA80, the other for AR-15 family such as the M16. They differ in the propellant type, to match the pressure characteristics required. It is quite likely that the SA80 would not be suitable for using with US ammunition such as the frangible type wanted by the UK force which guards the nuclear warheads in transit (if the threat is terrorists at close range, you don't want to risk AP ammunition punching through to the warheads).