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Reggiane RE 2000 first draft

archipeppe

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Dated back 2 April 1938, let see how similiar is to the Servesky P-35.

Found at http://www.alireggiane.com/aerei-f2/disegno-1-prototipo-re-2000-falco-t454.htm
 

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archipeppe

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Justo Miranda said:
Seversky catapultabile!
Good find ;)

Thanks Justo, Re 2000 was conceived with the possibility to be launched, via catapult, by several ships of Regia Marina, like Supedreadnoughts Littorio class or the Giuseppe Miraglia ship or the planned Italian Aircraft carrier Aquila.

Actually one Re 2000 was indeed successfully launched by the Miraglia in a sea trial.
 

Bailey

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Photo of that test from Reggiane RE 200 Falco, Heja, J.20 Aviolibri Special 6, Maurizio Di Terlizzi.

Regards Bailey.
 

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Justo Miranda

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Found some additional info
from
-Profile nº 123
-Chandelle 2001
-Hyperscale
-Unknown source
 

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archipeppe

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Ohter images of the Re 2000 "catapultabile", launched by the RN Miraglia Ship during the sea trials.
 

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merlin

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Sweden & Hungary weren't the only ones interested in the aircraft (with wheels). I have read that the RAF were in the process of ordering about 300 together, before Italy entered the war to bring negotiations to a stop.
 

archipeppe

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merlin said:
Sweden & Hungary weren't the only ones interested in the aircraft (with wheels). I have read that the RAF were in the process of ordering about 300 together, before Italy entered the war to bring negotiations to a stop.

Somewhere I've read the same thing but I don't how much real it was.
Did it was only an interest to the Reggiane Re 2000 or English did it placed an order?

Only Skybolt could answer to this question, anyway a RAF Re-2000 it would be nice fictional subject for a 3 views...
 

Skybolt

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Grazie per la fiducia Peppe...
Anyway, there was an interest by UK in every kind of aircrafts that could complement the output of the domestic industry. Actually the Re-2000 was evaluated, but not ordered (the order story was a post-war exhaggeration from both Longhi and Caproni, with different motivations, that you can well imagine).
 

carlo961

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Skybolt said:
Anyway, there was an interest by UK in every kind of aircrafts that could complement the output of the domestic industry. Actually the Re-2000 was evaluated, but not ordered

This means that a RAF delegation visited the Caproni-Reggiane factory and a RAF pilot tested the Re.2000, obviously before June 10, 1940 ?

So I read many years ago in the (unreliable) book of Piero Vergnano "I caccia Caproni Reggiane 1939-1945" edited by Interconair.
 

archipeppe

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Skybolt said:
Grazie per la fiducia Peppe...
Anyway, there was an interest by UK in every kind of aircrafts that could complement the output of the domestic industry. Actually the Re-2000 was evaluated, but not ordered (the order story was a post-war exhaggeration from both Longhi and Caproni, with different motivations, that you can well imagine).

Di niente, amico.

BTW The two-engined Capronis were really ordered by RAF.... or not?
I've read that, besides of France, even RAF placed an order about Caproni Ca 313 and so on.

Could you confirm me that?

Thanks in advance. :D
 

Skybolt

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Evaluated doesn't mean "tested"...
Yes, UK ordered the Ca-313 as bomber trainers and liason aircrafts.
 

archipeppe

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Skybolt said:
Evaluated doesn't mean "tested"...
Yes, UK ordered the Ca-313 as bomber trainers and liason aircrafts.

Aha...so at least there were a real order from RAF to Italian industry prior the war....
 

merlin

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Aha...so at least there were a real order from RAF to Italian industry prior the war....
[/quote]

Not just aircraft - the engine of choice for the RN MTBs were Italian.
 

Skybolt

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A little add-in to the Re-2000 for UK. Caproni drafted a contract and had it translated in English but the Englishmen ignored it: was more a try at enhancing the interest on the Re-2000 in other markets waving a totali invented British perspective deal.
 

carlo961

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In the past I never understood well if the Re.2000 was literally copied from the Seversky P-35. The books on the Reggiane aircraft, in my humble opinion, contributed to the confusion. After almost forty years of meditations ??? about this topic and many readings, I assume now that the Re.2000 was not copied from P-35.

I try to explain better: in my opinion Reggiane technicians did not start the Re.2000 project using some P-35 detailed drawings, but they seemingly started from a general layout of the P-35 (very similar the Re.2000 first draft posted here), but then they developed all the airframe, internal equipment and appurtenances according their own design and engineering.

Indeed, I discovered in recent years that Seversky aircraft were widely depicted in the late thirties in a very popular US aviation and aeromodelling magazine called "Air Trails", namely:

- in September 1936 issue there was the three view drawing of BT-8 (forerunner of P-35 with fixed undercarriage):

- in April 1938 issue (startling coincidence with Re.2000 first draft !) there was a three view drawing of a not specified Seversky;

- in June 1939 issue there was the three view drawing of P-35 (I think is the drawing attached to my message, but I need confirmation).

So I think that if a popular magazine can publish such documents, it could mean that it was not impossible at that time to retrieve a three-view drawing of a P-35, from Seversky public relation office, for instance.
A very different (and most difficult) thing was the project development, that in my opinion Reggiane technicians did with a lot of skill and ingenuity.
 

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Skybolt

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Carlo, I cannot elaborate, but the Re-2000 is very close copy of the P-35, with some minor adaptations due to Reggiane's skills limit in all-metal construction (having the right machinery doesn't equal having the skilled personnel). All-in-all the Seversky affair is radioactive and had severe repercussions before and after the war on a number of individuals and companies.
 

archipeppe

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Skybolt said:
All-in-all the Seversky affair is radioactive and had severe repercussions before and after the war on a number of individuals and companies.

Do you mean that Servesky was involved in such ways in espionnage activities?
 

Skybolt

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Col. Seversky was spoiled from his company, that's a fact. Not espionage, but private management of company assets, so to speak.
 

Hammer Birchgrove

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I've read that while the P-35 was respected/liked by the Swedish Air Force, it had limited or no armor and self-sealing tanks, despite being a modern aircraft for its time. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
 

airman

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archipeppe said:
Skybolt said:
Evaluated doesn't mean "tested"...
Yes, UK ordered the Ca-313 as bomber trainers and liason aircrafts.

Aha...so at least there were a real order from RAF to Italian industry prior the war....
Exactly, an order for 300 aircraft ( @ the end of january 1940)
 

archipeppe

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airman said:
Exactly, an order for 300 aircraft ( @ the end of january 1940)

So a Ca-313 profile in RAF markings would be not so "what if" at least.... ;)
 

Skybolt

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Yep, had Benito stayed out the war a little longer....
 

archipeppe

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Skybolt said:
Yep, had Benito stayed out the war a little longer....

A semi-OT, if Benito stayed out the war until the Battle of England probably Italy was never entered in WWII or only in the final phases....among Allies
 

Skybolt

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Hai ragione, ci facciamo sempre riconoscere... ::)
(You are right, we always do everything to distinguish ourselves...)
 

archipeppe

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Skybolt said:
Hai ragione, ci facciamo sempre riconoscere... ::)
(You are right, we always do everything to distinguish ourselves...)

There were three plans of Alto Comando, in April 1940, the first two were related to war with German against Allies, the last one was related to a war scenario with Allies against German.

If only Benito waits still a little....
 

robunos

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According to "The 'State-of-the-Art' Reggiane",
an article in 'Air Enthusiast' No. Forty One, pp.54-69,
In December 1939, Lord Hardwick went to Italy in
order to negotiate the purchase of italian materiel.

"The primary purchases to be negotiated...
Isotta-Fraschini marine engines, 1000 20mm cannon,
100 Ca 311 twin-engined trainers, and 300 Ca 313
light reconnaissance bombers. To list was to be added
300 Re 2000 fighters...
Two RAF pilots, Barnet and Grey, visited Reggio Emilia
on 22nd December to evaluate the fighter...
The British were favourably impressed...
It was considered that the shortcomings of the Italian
fighter that could not be easily rectified were not
sufficiently serious to impede procurement for the RAF..."

In the matter of delivery, it was proposed that the
disassembled aircraft be loaded onto unmarked wagons
and sent by rail to marseilles, where they would be
re-assembled, tested, and flown to Britain by RAF pilots.
Shortly thereafter, German intelligence found out about the
deal, and leaked this fact to the Italian Government.
Accordingly, they immediately informed the RLM of the
dealings, asking if the RLM had any objections.
Amazingly, on March 8th 1940, the RLM replied, stating
that that they had no objections to the sale of the
aircraft.
However, on April 6th, the RLM performed a U-Turn,
informing the Italians that the contract be terminated
forthwith.
Caproni and Hardwick then cooked up a deal whereby
the aircraft would be sold to Portugal, who would then
sell them on to Britain, circumventing the embargo.
However, on 10th June 1940, Mussolini declared war
on Britain, ending the whole affair.

And on page 61, some images of a Re 2000
Catapultabile being launched from the 'Miraglia'
and the 'Vittorio Veneto', in June 1941.


cheers,
Robin.
 

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Skybolt

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I know that Air Enthusiast article. Problem is that there is no trace of RLM's interest in the affair in Reggiane's archive. The visit of English pilots to Italy could be real, but there is no trace of flights and orders... Besides, the fact that in 1940 Caproni could do negotiations under the back of the government with a nation at war with the principal ally of Italy is pure fantasy. I've seen the letters Italian companies exchanged with the government when asking for PERMISSION to export aircrafts in most neutral places, like Peru... no possibility of "secrets". And the Regia maintained ax extensive presence of survellaince officers and NCO at every aeronautical establishments, even tiny one. A visit of British pilot couldn't have passed without being noticed. All-in-all the story smells of Caproni's PR (like the story that the Corsaro was being planned for series building for RAF on the Pacific Theatre...), or even post-war Longhi's PR, who had a real interest in defending the excellence of Re-2000 and its "indipendence" from Seversky. What better way than saying that England was interested and ordering in the hundreds?
 

robunos

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Thanks for the clarification, I'd thought it
sounded a bit suspect, myself.
As much as anything, would Mr Churchill
have allowed it...


cheers,
Robin.
 

Nico

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So I read many years ago in the (unreliable) book of Piero Vergnano "I caccia Caproni Reggiane 1939-1945" edited by Interconair.
[/quote]

...by the way, the author of the book "I caccia Caproni Reggiane 1939-1945" was Piero Prato. The late Piero Vergnano wrote the companion book about FIAT fighters

Nico
 

archipeppe

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This is not Vittorio Veneto battleship, rather than the Aircraft Tender Ship "Giuseppe Miraglia" which was involved in the Re2000 Cat launching trials.
Futhermore the Re 2000 exploited has a natural metal finiture while the ones embarched on the Littorio Class warships was painted RA Green on the top and light grey on the bottom.
 

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Well I have read that the Reggiane was an unapproved export license from cash strapped Seversky. I cannot remember the reference (When Air Forces Fail ?).
 

iverson

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Well I have read that the Reggiane was an unapproved export license from cash strapped Seversky. I cannot remember the reference (When Air Forces Fail ?).

I believe that the Re 2000 was an original design inspired in part by Seversky. But it wasn't designed by Seversky.

Seversky did export the P-35 to Sweden at the same time that Reggiane exported the Re2000. This fact might have led some sources to infer a closer relation.
 

Apophenia

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Exactly, directly inspired by the P-35/AP-1 but not a Seversky design. Might a bit of bio for ing Roberto Longhi be useful?

Roberti Longhi had a strong connection with the United States. After receiving a mechanical engineering degree from the Politecnico di Milano, Longhi moved to the US. There he trained as an aeronautical engineer, working for Bellanca Aircraft, Curtiss-Wright (on engine installations), and Uppercu-Burnelli Airplane Co. In 1929, Longhi was at the Fernic Aircraft Corporation on Staten Island, NY, where he was involved at some level in the development of the canarded Fernic FT-9 (although design credit is usually assigned to George Fernic and his fellow Romanian, Paul Dronin).

-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/george-fernic-airplanes.28144/

Around 1930, Longhi bought the Pacer Aircraft Corporation, of Perth Amboy, NJ. This firm had developed the Pacer Monoplane (or Special) parasol monoplane in 1928-29. In 1931, Longhi presented a fighter aircraft (presumably based upon the 4-seat Special airframe) to the US Army Air Corps. No order resulted and Longhi returned to Uppercu-Burnelli, remaining with that company until the end of 1935. He then left for a visit to Italy for health reasons.

-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/pacer-monoplane.29603/

Having returned to the US, in July 1937, Longhi recommended (by letter) that Caproni license either the Curtiss Hawk 75A or the Seversky AP-1. There are somewhat doubtful rumours that such negotiations actually took place with Sikorsky. But the future co-designers of the Re-2000, Longhi and ing Antonio Alessio did visit the Seversky Aircraft Company at Farmingdale.

Alessio - the vicedirettore generale of Reggiane - had arrived in New York in November 1937. He was followed by vicecapo of Caproni's Technical Office, ing Fidia Piattelli (Caproni being Reggiane's parent company). Attracted by Longhi's US training and aviation industry experience, Alessio made him a job offer hoping to lure him back to Italy. Longhi retured to Italy in February 1938 ... which makes the 02 April 1938 date on archipeppe's 3-view drawings all the more impressive.

Going back to inspiration, my sense is that Longhi's 1937 licensing recommendations played a part. Look at one way, the Re-2000 design is a mélange of the two mentioned US fighter designs - effectively a Seversky (without the AP-1's flat wing centre-section) fitted with the Boeing-patented main undercarriage from the Hawk 75A.
 

iverson

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Going back to inspiration, my sense is that Longhi's 1937 licensing recommendations played a part. Look at one way, the Re-2000 design is a mélange of the two mentioned US fighter designs - effectively a Seversky (without the AP-1's flat wing centre-section) fitted with the Boeing-patented main undercarriage from the Hawk 75A.

Thanks for the biography.

I wouldn't go quite as far as "mélange". Overall, the Re.2000 was a more advanced design than either. It was lighter and faster, despite marginally less power. It also included some of the earlier examples of sealed, integral wing fuel tanks.

So I'd say that Longhi simply put his American experience to good use when designing a fighter matched to contemporary Italian requirements.
 

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