Qatari 747-8i as temporary VC-25B replacement

Josh_TN said:
Who said that, and why would anyone think the current Signal run administration would listen?
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That would be the USAF and STRATCOM, reminding the SECDEF that without a very expensive and time consuming radio upgrade, a Civilian plane cannot talk to strategic assets at all, will be very limited in ability to talk to USAF in general (only on 121.5MHz, so basically useless because everyone can hear you), and unable to talk to Army or Marines at all.
 
NMaude said:
You are correct that this 747 would have to grounded for several years for physical modifications to its' airframe followed by the installation of classified electronics to bring it up to at least the standard of the VC-25A if not VC-25B which would defeat the ostensible purpose of this 747-8.
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Maybe this is a VH-71 Moment when those 'requirements' come to be reassessed.

In the era of SATCOM-delivered teleconferencing and virtual presence, what's the minimum set of equipment required to keep in contact?

What's the role of VP mean in the modern context if the President seemingly can't delegate to him whilst travelling?
 
Scott Kenny said:
That would be the USAF and STRATCOM, reminding the SECDEF that without a very expensive and time consuming radio upgrade, a Civilian plane cannot talk to strategic assets at all, will be very limited in ability to talk to USAF in general (only on 121.5MHz, so basically useless because everyone can hear you), and unable to talk to Army or Marines at all.
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I think it’s laughable that anyone in the administration is beholden to anyone’s opinion outside POTUS. He will do whatever he wants and fire/ignore anyone who says otherwise, and Congress will let him do so. If he thinks he can and should be able to order a strike on his personal cell phone, no one is likely to inform him otherwise nor would he be made to listen.

But presumably this “free” jet would receive a hideously expensive and time consuming upgrade before actual usage, thus defeating the supposed point of the exercise. It’s not like the U.S. has a shortage of Boeings. This just a bribe, plane and simple.
 
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Less political post, all of us so far have ignored the huge security concerns of accepting a foreign operated jet. Qatar has close ties with Iran and its proxy groups. The security consequences of even hosting a president there without completely disassembling the aircraft are profound.
 
Archibald said:
Why are VC-25A (the 747-200, vintage AF1) not good enough for Trump ? Do they have maintenance issues, because too old the airframe ?
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Something I wondered as well. I know they are due to be replaced by a program that has lapsed over the previous two administrations, but are they unserviceable in any way? Look at how old Marine 1 was (is?). Presidential aircraft are a huge pain - vast requirements and weight gain spread across a fleet you can count on one hand.
 
Josh_TN said:
Something I wondered as well. I know they are due to be replaced by a program that has lapsed over the previous two administrations, but are they unserviceable in any way? Look at how old Marine 1 was (is?). Presidential aircraft are a huge pain - vast requirements and weight gain spread across a fleet you can count on one hand.
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He thinks they are dumpy (not enough gold). That's it. That's his only logic.

It is true that the AF1 furnishings are solidly 1980s style. But they're fine.
 
Archibald said:
Why are VC-25A (the 747-200, vintage AF1) not good enough for Trump ? Do they have maintenance issues, because too old the airframe ?
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Basically.

I don't think there are any 747-200s left flying anywhere else in the world. This means that any "new" spare parts are actually stuff that was pulled out of the Boneyard. Which then needs to be inspected/rebuilt to Yankee White standards (at major cost).

The VC-25As were brought into service in 1990, but the 747-200 first saw service in 1971. Technically, the USAF bought the "previous model year" plane when they bought the -200s, as the -400 was entering service at the same time the VC-25As were being built and delivered, and the -300s entered service in 1983. So even when the VC-25As were brand new in 1990, most of their spare parts specific to the -200 model were coming out of the Boneyard because the base design was 20 years old and most of the planes were being retired. The airlines were buying 747-400s in 1989-1990 and flew them until about 2012, when they replaced the -400s with -8s.

The new 747-8s were basically the last planes off the assembly line or pretty close to it, as well, since the last 747-8i was rolled out in 2022.

So as a side note, it means that the USAF is going to have to pay a LOT of money in 2030 to get a 4-engined VVIP transport developed for service in ~2045-50.
 
Josh_TN said:
Less political post, all of us so far have ignored the huge security concerns of accepting a foreign operated jet. Qatar has close ties with Iran and its proxy groups. The security consequences of even hosting a president there without completely disassembling the aircraft are profound.
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This is what I was thinking too, when that aircraft arrives it will have to be given an extremely detailed, lengthy and expensive inspection of its' airframe and systems for anything untoward (Such as electronic bugs for example).
 
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Scott Kenny said:
Basically.

I don't think there are any 747-200s left flying anywhere else in the world. This means that any "new" spare parts are actually stuff that was pulled out of the Boneyard. Which then needs to be inspected/rebuilt to Yankee White standards (at major cost).

The VC-25As were brought into service in 1990, but the 747-200 first saw service in 1971. Technically, the USAF bought the "previous model year" plane when they bought the -200s, as the -400 was entering service at the same time the VC-25As were being built and delivered, and the -300s entered service in 1983. So even when the VC-25As were brand new in 1990, most of their spare parts specific to the -200 model were coming out of the Boneyard because the base design was 20 years old and most of the planes were being retired. The airlines were buying 747-400s in 1989-1990 and flew them until about 2012, when they replaced the -400s with -8s.

The new 747-8s were basically the last planes off the assembly line or pretty close to it, as well, since the last 747-8i was rolled out in 2022.

So as a side note, it means that the USAF is going to have to pay a LOT of money in 2030 to get a 4-engined VVIP transport developed for service in ~2045-50.
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An excellent technical explanation for the need for a new AF1 that completely misses the point about the “President” clearly accepting a foreign gift that will end up as his private plane.

No one works harder to explain what’s blatantly obvious than a defender of this “administration.”
 
NMaude said:
This is what I was thinking too, when that aircraft arrives it will have to be given an extremely detailed, lengthy and expensive inspection of its' airframe and systems for anything untoward (Such as electronic for example).
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That's the basis of a D-Check; all panelling and flooring removed, airframe scanned with x-ray machine for cracks or defirmations, every single engine blade removed and inspected, toilets disassembled and tested. Then put together again.

Takes one to two months, costs about $5 million.

Add a couple more months for extra MIB attention?

039A7922.jpg
 
Kiltonge said:
That's the basis of a D-Check; all panelling and flooring removed, airframe scanned with x-ray machine for cracks or defirmations, every single engine blade removed and inspected, toilets disassembled and tested. Then put together again.

Takes one to two months, costs about $5 million.

Add a couple more months for extra MIB attention?

View attachment 769985
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Then fit a new custom interior, a totally bespoke secure comms system, defensive countermeasures, and all the other special provisions needed for a President to actually do the business of the United States from the plane.

That's a lot more than a D check.
 
martinbayer said:
Let's get a thoroughly experienced and qualified equine dentist then to examine that particular gift horse's mouth, just to make sure there is no potential Trojan connection whatsoever, stat, shall we? Just make sure there is no potential bug infestation of any sort...
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A Trojan connection could result in condomnation but that could be stretching things too far.
 
TomS said:
Then fit a new custom interior, a totally bespoke secure comms system, defensive countermeasures, and all the other special provisions needed for a President to actually do the business of the United States from the plane.

That's a lot more than a D check.
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It doesn't seem that's planned for the interim aircraft given the timeline, just defensive aids presumably.

After all its all that kit that's costing $5 billion and a decade for the VC-25B.

I don't know whether it's feasible but it's interesting to see a regression in concept to the days of the VC-137 and early VC-25A when they were essentially luxury transports with comms back to the delegated command authority.

How did Reagan do the business of the USA and end the Cold War when flying around in an old 707? He delegated.
 
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Scott Kenny said:
I don't think there are any 747-200s left flying anywhere else in the world.
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According to the wikipedia 747 article there are still five 747-200Fs flying.

GTX said:
www.twz.com

Turning Qatar's Gifted 747 Into Air Force One Will Be Anything But Free

Trump rightly said only "a stupid person" would turn down the free Qatari jet, but turning it into Air Force One for a few years of service isn't realistic.
www.twz.com www.twz.com
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Saying only a “stupid person” would turn down a free, highly-modified 747-8i airliner, President Donald Trump on Monday doubled down on his justification for receiving a donated jet from Qatar to serve as a presidential plane until Boeing completes delivery of two future VC-25B Air Force One aircraft.
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Someone needs to tell Trump to look in a mirror but then having a room-temperature IQ he might not get the phrase;):D.
 
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I'd imagine it would take at least a year for the aircraft, if accepted, to hasten the in-service date of the VC-25B, but perhaps not as the actual interim airframe.

The Qatari aircraft's current lack of EMP protection may be an insurmountable issue in and of itself as an AF1 airframe. (Which triggers the question, are the C-32s/757s the President flies in on occasion fully EMP protected? I have no idea. If not, that may point to how the Qatari aircraft may be relatively quickly modified for the President's [possibly only US domestic] use.)

However, the additional airframe may enable one of the two VC-25Bs currently in queue to enter service earlier on an interim, less-capable standard, as the #2 formerly Transaero-slated airframe and then maybe this former Qatari aircraft are modified and completed to the full standard.

At best, it might provide part of a three-plane AF1 fleet, all ultimately modified to a somewhat common standard. The Qatari airframe would be the third and last such airframe modified should be - again, should be - the most straightforward to modify, given lessons learned and the manufacturing process learned and set for first two.

At worst, it will serve as a valuable source of very low-time 747-8 parts and structures for the two VC-25B's and four E-4C's in the years to come, especially given the relatively small 747-8 production run.

I'd be surprised if the aircraft will ever find its way to anyone's Presidential library for at least 20-30 years, barring some sort of disruptive technology making it and the other VC-25Bs/747-8s obsolete in the near future.
 
Boxman said:
I'd imagine it would take at least a year for the aircraft, if accepted, to hasten the in-service date of the VC-25B, but perhaps not as the actual interim airframe.

The Qatari aircraft's current lack of EMP protection may be an insurmountable issue in and of itself as an AF1 airframe. (Which triggers the question, are the C-32s/757s the President flies in on occasion fully EMP protected? I have no idea. If not, that may point to how the Qatari aircraft may be relatively quickly modified for the President's [possibly only US domestic] use.)

However, the additional airframe may enable one of the two VC-25Bs currently in queue to enter service earlier on an interim, less-capable standard, as the #2 formerly Transaero-slated airframe and then maybe this former Qatari aircraft are modified and completed to the full standard.

At best, it might provide part of a three-plane AF1 fleet, all ultimately modified to a somewhat common standard. The Qatari airframe would be the third and last such airframe modified should be - again, should be - the most straightforward to modify, given lessons learned and the manufacturing process learned and set for first two.

At worst, it will serve as a valuable source of very low-time 747-8 parts and structures for the two VC-25B's and four E-4C's in the years to come, especially given the relatively small 747-8 production run.

I'd be surprised if the aircraft will ever find its way to anyone's Presidential library for at least 20-30 years, barring some sort of disruptive technology making it and the other VC-25Bs/747-8s obsolete in the near future.
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I believe the 757 fleet is not as well protected as AF1 but is limited to domestic trips where the threat level is much lower. Which makes me wonder, if Trump is so obsessed with his new livery being his legacy then why not order the fleet of 757 and 737 transports the USAF operates to be repainted ?
 
Unfortunately the press reporting on several aspects of this has been incorrect or misleading.

It has been said that at the end of the current President's term the aircraft would be "donated to the Presidential Library" or "library foundation".

A Presidential Library is a collection of records managed by the National Archives and Records Administration. The records are still federal property managed by the federal government, and are made available to the people as appropriate.

There are physical Presidential libraries, though the last several presidents have opted to not have physical libraries. These physical locations are built by non-profits (i.e. foundations or trusts) set up by the former presidents and are funded through donations. NARA works with the non-profit to house records, etc. there.

There is no physical Trump Presidential Library nor are there currently plans to construct one. There is a Trump Presidential Library collection at NARA.

There is also no Trump Presidential Library Foundation. There is, however, a Donald J. Trump Presidential Library Fund, Inc. that was formed in the last 6 months. Several court awards/settlements for Trump as a private citizen have been awarded to the Trump Library Fund by the courts. This is where the "donation" of the aircraft would go - to a private corporation that benefits a private citizen.

This would mean the Qatari 747 would go to the federal government while in service, then be transferred to the control of a private corporation which benefits Trump as a private citizen .

These are very important distinctions to make, which I have not seen the press making so far.
 
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Kiltonge said:
That's the basis of a D-Check; all panelling and flooring removed, airframe scanned with x-ray machine for cracks or defirmations, every single engine blade removed and inspected, toilets disassembled and tested. Then put together again.

Takes one to two months, costs about $5 million.

Add a couple more months for extra MIB attention?
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More like an extra year just to clear the workers to do the work, once work starts there's several months to install the minimum military radios, self-protection suites, and EMP protection. Then you can start installing the custom interior, which will take several months to do right.

Nevermind the full VC-25B electronics fit, which involves adding an amount of wire equal to the existing amount in the plane.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Nevermind the full VC-25B electronics fit, which involves adding an amount of wire equal to the existing amount in the plane.
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I suppose that the VC-25A is significantly heavier than a regular 747-200 due to all of the extra avionics and associated wiring?
 
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I've come to the conclusion, sadly, that this gift horse just won't work. The Qataris are the sweetest guys - just the sweetest, you gotta love them - but it would take too long and cost too much to turn this thing into some iteration of a VC-25Q.
Sad that the VC-25Bs are taking so long. My Russian friends are still laughing about them being "Russian repos" (and yes I - and they - know the true story).
 
I appreciate this is a political topic by its very nature but please stop with direct political statements about political parties unrelated to the topic or even whom you voted for or didn't vote for in the US elections. This is not the place to discuss the Democratic Party or Trump's trade policy.
 
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Should just use Space-X rocket.... you can get from point A to point B, anywhere on earth within 2 hours, max! Isn't someone looking at using the technology for transporting cargo?
 
I would have never thought that the simple thought of a third (second and a half?) AF1 would lead to one of the messiest forum posts I've ever read lol.
 
Boxman said:
At best, it might provide part of a three-plane AF1 fleet, all ultimately modified to a somewhat common standard. The Qatari airframe would be the third and last such airframe modified should be - again, should be - the most straightforward to modify, given lessons learned and the manufacturing process learned and set for first two.

At worst, it will serve as a valuable source of very low-time 747-8 parts and structures for the two VC-25B's and four E-4C's in the years to come, especially given the relatively small 747-8 production run.
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I'm rather confident this is what will end up happening. Either way, there isn't any risk or loss associated with it. So I wouldn't see a reason why the US government shouldn't go for it. Especially as a political gesture to an ever-unstable middle east. Where every partnership is something to be maintained and appreciated.

Bringing up big words like corruption or bribes is a bit much, considering how much genuine dirt there is with this and the previous US administration.

TLDR; Plane good, politics bad.
 
Read a post on FB from an "AF1 stewardess" about how having a third bird would make the squadron's lives a hell of a lot easier. Planning phase checks around the POTUS schedule has caused basically all Maintenance Officers at that unit to skip "gray hair" and go straight to "balding rapidly". Just having 3 birds means that you can have one in maintenance and still have the required 2 birds following the POTUS around.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Read a post on FB from an "AF1 stewardess" about how having a third bird would make the squadron's lives a hell of a lot easier. Planning phase checks around the POTUS schedule has caused basically all Maintenance Officers at that unit to skip "gray hair" and go straight to "balding rapidly". Just having 3 birds means that you can have one in maintenance and still have the required 2 birds following the POTUS around.
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It certainly would but as has been pointed out upthread at the absolute minimum this "Gift" needs to be given a comprehensive D-check to make sure there are no unwelcome surprises. But to be a proper VC-25B it needs to undergo the lengthy and hideously expensive process of the needed structural and avionics upgrades which take years.
 
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