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Project HOT EAGLE-- Marine Space Transport

XP67_Moonbat

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Transporting Marines to a combat zone. The idea is simple. Implementing would be a whole other story. Personally I think that bird better have a lot of good shielding. And lets hope insurgents with Stingers aren't hanging around. Because it's going to be a bad day from everbody onboard.

But I dug this up for you amusement anyway. Enjoy!

http://hhboard12.free.fr/USAFSUSTAINBrief.ppt
 

DarkLord

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Soem time ago I corresponded with the late Phil Bono of Douglas. He had proposed using his Rombus concept as a sub-orbital troop transport for marines/special forces. The main drawbacks were the landings, the final descent was a powered braking landing. The craft, which was huge, would be vunerable to ground fire. The Rombus would have had to land some distance from the "hotspot" to ensure safety. Phil said that it would be more use as a rapid response troop transport. It could have reached anywhere on the globe in a matter of hours from loading and fuelling to deployment. not the days or even weeks of conventional troop movement.

I will have to check in my archives to see if I still have the letters and information that he sent me. But I have lost a lot of the years through moving.
 

Antonio

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article at Popular Science:

http://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-space/article/2006-12/semper-fly-marines-space
 

flateric

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This is what Proponent talks about...
 

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amsci99

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DarkLord said:
Soem time ago I corresponded with the late Phil Bono of Douglas. He had proposed using his Rombus concept as a sub-orbital troop transport for marines/special forces. The main drawbacks were the landings, the final descent was a powered braking landing. I will have to check in my archives to see if I still have the letters and information that he sent me. But I have lost a lot of the years through moving.

I remember the book he co-authored, 'Frontiers of Space' from my childhood. Would definitely like to look at the information.
 

XP67_Moonbat

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"Frontiers Of Space"! That book was a big part of my childhood too. I checked it out so often it might as well have been mine. After I got off active duty and came back home, it was no longer in the library :'( I tell you what though. "Frontiers.." is screaming for a reprint, preferably by Apogee books. With new material on the DC-X and Blue Origin. But I digress. This particular talk is better suited for The Bookshelf.

On rocket-based troop transports, I would say that parachutes on approach would be most essential. A hull washdown or icing system would probably be in order, you would think. And a Kevlar belt of some kind would definitely need to be in place.

Audio and visual signatures aside, anyone coming in hot (literally), all rockets blazing and hull still hot from reentry, will have the IR signature of a sun. Those pesky insurgents will have a turkey shoot from their rooftops. Bring your own Stingers and small arms. Not good at all.

Unless the transport makes a landing "in the rear, with the gear", frontline use is not a good idea. No sir'ee.

It's funny what you think of on your way to class. :)

Moonbat
 

DarkLord

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I have found 3 papers that I got from Phil Bono. Unfortunately none of the correspondance has survived and the military applications paper is also missing. But I remember him apologising for the fact that it was a rewrite of the civilian "Pegasus" paper. When I finish scanning them, I will post a note. They are too large to post at a decent resolution (400dpi).
If you contact me when I have them all I will email them on.

This is a sample, in low res, of a page of the ROMBUS concept
 

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Michel Van

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millions Thanks DarkLord for PDF
for low res is very good picture

by the way in space project is also a ROMBUS, Pegasus, Ithacus thread
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4577.0.html

you can post them in Low res there ;D
 

XP67_Moonbat

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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article4969025.ece

You'd think that with my country's economy in the toilet and the death of Blackswift, that HOT EAGLE would have been canned as well. I'm not a gambler but Vegas odds should say it's next up on the chopping block soon. But then again, who knows?
 

blackstar

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XP67_Moonbat said:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article4969025.ece

You'd think that with my country's economy in the toilet and the death of Blackswift, that HOT EAGLE would have been canned as well. I'm not a gambler but Vegas odds should say it's next up on the chopping block soon. But then again, who knows?

The Times article is just a rewrite of something that the reporter saw in USA Today earlier in the week:

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/space/2008-10-14-spacetroopers_N.htm

HOT EAGLE is not a "real" program. Blackswift was a real program in terms of money--they had approval to start working on it (as a research program). HOT EAGLE is really only a set of PowerPoint slides and there is no indication that the Pentagon was ever going to spend any money on it. You can tell that in part by which organization is involved. Blackswift was a DARPA project and DARPA develops stuff. But HE is a project in the National Security Space Office, which doesn't really do anything other than produce PowerPoint slides. DARPA has been around since the 1950s and is not going away, whereas NSSO is always in danger of being eliminated each year.

In other words, HOT EAGLE is not going to be canceled because it has never really started...
 

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Thanks, blackstar. I didn't know about the whole NSSO factor. But I do now. "And knowing is half the battle". ;D
 

XP67_Moonbat

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All we have is shiny graphics like this:
 

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blackstar

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XP67_Moonbat said:
Thanks, blackstar. I didn't know about the whole NSSO factor. But I do now. "And knowing is half the battle". ;D

You can tell a lot simply by doing some searches. For instance, if you search through Aviation Week, you will hardly ever find the NSSO mentioned. But of course DARPA is mentioned all the time. That's because NSSO doesn't build stuff. If HE was a DARPA project, then you could expect that somebody was thinking about building hardware.
 
A

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YAAARGH! Space marines! I am sure the talibunnies are shitting in their pants . :) At the thought of the bayonet of course. they could not care less about SUSTAIN . their fight begins once the space marines get back on ground regardless of whether it is hypersonic , supersonic or bullock cart delivery .


Question: will the pentagon also use this as a pizza delivery service?
 

r16

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actually space marine are to capture spaceships , otherwise they would be normal marines , wouldn't they ?
 

Jos Heyman

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Today, 28 October 2008, on http://www.airforce-magazine.com/Pages/default.aspx:

Storming the Beaches From Space: Pentagon planners gathered last month to revisit a Marine Corps concept that calls for transporting small groups of marines on a space-faring vehicle and delivering them to any point on the globe within several hours ready to fight. USA Today reported earlier this month that a two-day conference took place to discuss the seemingly far-out notion—both literally and figuratively—called the small unit space transport and insertion program. According to the newspaper, the Marines conceived the concept after the 9/11 attacks as a means to quickly counter terrorist threats or rescue cut-off friendly forces. The Air Force and DARPA are already pursuing concepts, such as the Falcon hypersonic vehicle, for carrying payloads of munitions quickly to any spot on the globe. But these concepts are far from mature and have dealt only with non-human payloads.
 

hesham

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pometablava said:
article at Popular Science:

http://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-space/article/2006-12/semper-fly-marines-space

Hi,

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/3/3/25615/21153/800/703975
 

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r16

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so the newest toy to be bought to capture long elusive threats . Wonder what happened to plain old bribing , some 8 years ago we were hearing how effective it would be ? Is this the new Christmas Bullet or the people are being serious ? If they are , then ı would like to remind them that the then Marine corps commandant that refused plans proposed by the then Navy Commander , Boorda was his name , because they would have meant in the end , USAF would be eating their lunch ...

but maybe conforming is the best way ; who knows grappling hooks can be sold in the same scale to those famous 900 USD aviation hammers ...
 

blackstar

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It's not a serious idea. Soldiers (and Marines) are constantly coming up with what they think are really great ideas. The services want to encourage this. But some of the ideas are either so advanced technically, or violate the laws of physics, that they should not be considered. (Others would be ridiculously expensive to develop.)

A few years ago somebody came up with the idea of developing a rocketplane that could drop a small unit of Marines anywhere. That basic idea goes back to the 1950s, but it was probably a combination of both Afghanistan and SpaceShip One that caused somebody to get this idea again. Eventually the head of the Marine Corps endorsed the idea and it became a study project called SUSTAIN and then HOT EAGLE (or maybe it was the other way around).

The idea got tossed over to an organization called the National Security Space Office (or NSSO) in the Pentagon. The thing you need to know about the NSSO is that it has a very small budget and no power. In Washington terms, nobody pays any attention to them. So for the past few years they have been holding workshops on this concept. But that's all they are doing. The technology does not currently exist to do these things, and the NSSO cannot develop space hardware or order somebody else to do it. So this will not turn into a development program to produce cool spaceships.

That said, some of the ideas that they are talking about have merit. It is possible that they might develop some technologies that will get used elsewhere on planes, satellites, other spacecraft. But you won't see a spaceplane with Marines landing in a combat zone anytime in the next several decades.
 

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In doing some looking at past papers and presentations for “Responsive-Space-Access” here:
http://www.responsivespace.com/psearch.asp?cat=H

I ran across this one, (there are many at the site though and some pretty interesting stuff):
Paper Number RS7-2009-1002: Small Unit Space Transport and Insertion (SUSTAIN) John M. Jurist (Odegard School of Aerospace Sciences, UND), David C. Hook (Planehook Aviation Services), David Livingston (Odegard School of Aerospace Sciences, UND )
http://www.responsivespace.com/Papers/RS7/SESSIONS/SESSION%20I/1002_JURIST/1002C.pdf
http://www.responsivespace.com/Papers/RS7/SESSIONS/SESSION%20I/1002_JURIST/1002P.pdf
Abstract:
Cheap, rapid orbital launch (Responsive Space) has been elusive. Three potential approaches, all with different policy and economic implications, are considered. The first, exemplified by Virgin Galactic’s SS-2, evolves current attempts at suborbital space tourism or human-tended science involving brief flights with apogees above 100 km into point to point suborbital transport and then to orbital transport. The second, exemplified by SpaceX’s Falcon series, evolves more traditional aerospace technology with improved management to drive down launch costs on the margin and then hopefully to the point where response space access is accomplished. The third, and in our opinion most viable short term approach, uses requirements addressing national security needs to accelerate development and to exploit currently existing technology or technology that is partially developed and demonstrated. We illustrate this approach by considering the Small Unit Space Transport and Insertion (SUSTAIN) requirement presented by the US Marine Corps. SUSTAIN specifies a capability to place a squad of 13 marines and field supplies anywhere in the world from the continental US within 2 hours. Potential solutions considered and rejected include: ? A DC-X like vertical take-off rocket-powered vehicle that decelerates and lands under rocket power and then returns under rocket power without refueling and refurbishing cannot be developed and fielded in a 5-10 year period. ? An aerospace plane would most likely require development for more than a decade and would also require a landing field near the target area. ? Placing and staffing a constellation of up to 12 space stations with re-entry vehicles is technically possible but economically implausible. Our inexpensive approach for the 5-10 year time frame with current technology is a capsule on a pressure-fed, liquid-fuelled, ablatively-cooled, composite 3 stage vertical take-off rocket-powered launch vehicle. The launch vehicle is a modified Microcosm Scorpius Exodus system. The capsule decelerates aerodynamically during re-entry, decelerates further with a parachute or parasail, and cushions the final impact with small solid-fuelled rockets. Extraction of individual team members could be accomplished by using Fulton Recovery Systems on them individually or by lifting the capsule containing the team to several thousand feet AGL with the capsule abort rocket system and then snagging it in midair with a cargo aircraft. The basic technology required for this approach has been demonstrated over the past ½ century. Most of the technology elements for the Scorpius Exodus have been demonstrated and even flown. Therefore, SUSTAIN could be implemented rapidly and inexpensively. The major developmental element appears to be the capsule. Major impediments to implementing SUSTAIN fall within the political, economic, and policy arenas. A side benefit of this approach to SUSTAIN is a simple, cheap, responsive space launch vehicle.

(Randy)
 

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If SUSTAIN does manage to make it to the hardware stage, I perdict the first operational vehicle will be something on the order of a four-man team (+ equipment) transport for SO/SF roles. Or perhaps a spaceplane counterpart of the SC/Lockheed ATTT (AT-3), in other words an O-SMUT. ;)
 

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https://medium.com/war-is-boring/this-cold-war-concept-envisioned-space-marines-with-jetpacks-5a3ee398d42e
 

blackstar

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Grey Havoc said:
If SUSTAIN does manage to make it to the hardware stage, I perdict the first operational vehicle will be something on the order of a four-man team (+ equipment) transport for SO/SF roles. Or perhaps a spaceplane counterpart of the SC/Lockheed ATTT (AT-3), in other words an O-SMUT. ;)

I only repost this to note the date. We have not heard anything about SUSTAIN in four years. This was always a paper project and a pet project with no basis in reality. I'm pretty sure that it violates the laws of physics.
 

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I've just put out "US Transport Projects #06," and have included drawings and info on one of the HOT EAGLE concepts. The one shown here is the "Super Global Transport" version, the most technologically aggressive of the concepts, which included the ability to self-extract. Most of the other versions required assistance in getting out of the combat zone at the end of the mission.

http://www.aerospaceprojectsreview.com/blog/?p=2606

After some years of digging I finally got the report on HOT EAGLE I wanted. This reconstruction is based on a primary source (and conversations with the actual designer), not media reports or speculation.
 

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XP67_Moonbat

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In light of recent "news" about a Space Force, I thought it'd be time to reopen this thread.
 

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In a better world, the Space Force would have a bunch of Hot Eagles. It would not launch them across the globe, but instead keep them at each of the dozen or so USSF Space Bases located in LEO. Each base would be a rotating habitat a hundred meters or so in diameter, spinning to generate 1.2 G's at the outer training rim. That's too small and too fast for comfort; coriolis forces would play havoc with many recruits. But those who do well in it will train hours a day in a heavier g environment so that when the time comes they jump into their Hot Eagle dropships, plummet to the surface, raise havoc and await the slowpokes in the USAF and USN to provide air cover and for the Army and Marines to provide even slower reinforcements.
 

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The Space Marines need a concurrent Black program to genetically engineer hordes of armed giant mutant army (creatures?) that can be supplied Afghanistan (or other Hot Zone enemy) to provide the necessary premise to send the Space Marines in to quell the situation.
 

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kcran567 said:
The Space Marines need a concurrent Black program to genetically engineer hordes of armed giant mutant army (creatures?) that can be supplied Afghanistan (or other Hot Zone enemy) to provide the necessary premise to send the Space Marines in to quell the situation.

Afghanistan already has hordes of armed mutant creatures.
 

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I'm sure as a stop gap we could squeeze 5-6 Marines in an X-37b with life support and call it done. They could parachute out over the Drop Zone.
 

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kcran567 said:
I'm sure as a stop gap we could squeeze 5-6 Marines in an X-37b with life support and call it done. They could parachute out over the Drop Zone.

The X-37B would only work for Oompa Loompas, but a scaled up crewed X-37C for up to 7 astronauts was discussed in X-37B Orbital Test Vehicle and Derivatives, Arthur Grantz, The Boeing Company, Seal Beach, CA, AIAA-2011-7315, AIAA SPACE 2011 Conference and Exposition, Long Beach, California, Sep. 27-29, 2011, see https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b3f5/f5df7f1e8df80876cd8ff6c0fac1c04059ce.pdf

Martin
 

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It was a joke...the smallest possible vehicle like an x-37b for 5 Marines squeezed, and parachuting in would be a farce. Even10-30 in a larger vehicle seems like a low number. Even one passenger in an x-37b would be a harrowing experience.
 

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kcran567 said:
Even one passenger in an x-37b would be a harrowing experience.

The reality:

General Badass announces to a room full of special forces operators:
"We will stuff you in a spaceplane and shoot you across the sky at Mach 18. You will experience 6 g's at takeoff, and variable between 0 g's and 5 g's as you skip across the upper atmosphere. You will abandon the vehicle at 120,000 feet for a HALO jump into enemy territory while wearing an ill-fitting spacesuit made by the lowest bidder, breaking the speed of sound as you fall. You will land in a small compound with four of your fellows where you will rescue American captives from the stupid unteachable monsters who are currently holding them. You will then hold the compound from the onslaught of an expected 3,000 assailants for a minimum of five hours until conventional forces can be flown to support you. We can only send five of you at this time on this harrowing experience which chances are you will not survive. Who wants in?"

The news the following day says that the military had to deploy a combination of sleep gas and ED-209 droids to quell the riot as the operators started beating the hell out of each other for the chance to be first in line.

"This will harrow, yes, your very soul" is an *enticement* to exactly the sort of people we want to rocket across the planet to apply boot to ass for Uncle Sam.
 

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kcran567 said:
I'm sure as a stop gap we could squeeze 5-6 Marines in an X-37b with life support and call it done. They could parachute out over the Drop Zone.

No, the X-37 can only carry 500lbs. That isn't even enough for one person.
 

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I've read somewhere that the 1st Marine Recon had jumped from A3D Skynights many years ago. An experimental method of inserting special operations forces in minimal time (circa 1960s early 70s). When compared to the expense and time it takes to initiate a launch campaign to fly an expendable launch vehicle to deploy a hand full of troops, it would be wiser to distribute a number of special containerized internal or external stores in stealth aircraft or on jet fighters with special operators inside and transport them around the world to any location in a few hours than a rocket that would alert anyone who watches the news!
 

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