Imperial and Nationalist China Warship Projects

I've heard it too and remember a brief discussion of it somewhere.
 
Tzoli said:
Thanks! I will download that document set soon. If you find anything other feel free to post the links so we can check and download
Click to expand...
When I seach the keyword “艦”（means warship），There are nearly two thousand query results，Most of them are useless or require Taiwanese ID
Only a few can be browsed，BUT，some are All Chinese documents like this

國家檔案資訊網-首頁

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aa.archives.gov.tw aa.archives.gov.tw

lucky，I still get someting
Vickers Submarine

國家檔案資訊網-首頁

ææªè³è¨æ´å管çæåå¹³å°ãå家æªæ¡è³è¨ç¶²ãæ°ç¾ç«¯
aa.archives.gov.tw aa.archives.gov.tw


German and Italian design small destroyers

國家檔案資訊網-首頁

ææªè³è¨æ´å管çæåå¹³å°ãå家æªæ¡è³è¨ç¶²ãæ°ç¾ç«¯
aa.archives.gov.tw aa.archives.gov.tw

國家檔案資訊網-首頁

ææªè³è¨æ´å管çæåå¹³å°ãå家æªæ¡è³è¨ç¶²ãæ°ç¾ç«¯
aa.archives.gov.tw aa.archives.gov.tw
LoadImagesForELK(9).jpg LoadImagesForELK(10).jpg
 
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Dilandu said:
Kingpin6100 said:
There were plans to sell/give a Pr. 26bis (Molotov) class cruiser to the PLAN pre Sino-Soviet split, but that's outside the bounds of this thread.
Click to expand...
Hm! Never heard about that. Could you please give details?
Click to expand...
I have not seen reliable information in Chinese, but some people say it comes from the Jane’s Fight Ships 1962
don’t know if there’s anything in Russia
WjQ9-fxrpvea1218056.jpg
 
Dilandu said:
Kingpin6100 said:
There were plans to sell/give a Pr. 26bis (Molotov) class cruiser to the PLAN pre Sino-Soviet split, but that's outside the bounds of this thread.
Click to expand...
Hm! Never heard about that. Could you please give details?
Click to expand...
I read about it a while back - at some point, Kruschev offered a Pr. 26bis cruiser, and the Chinese were interested in a Sverdlov, but this would have required extremely high prices for the PLAN, from basing rights for the Russians all the way up to direct Soviet control of the navy, so these offers were rejected. Gonna try and find the source again

Looks like the Soviets offered Kaganovich after it was damaged in 1958, but the PLAN wanted a Sverdlov- the USSR offered Ordzhonikidze, but one Sino-Soviet split later, that ship was sold to Indonesia, and became Irian.

here's one source mentioning it:

mil.news.sina.com.cn

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深度：ä¸å¯æ€è®® ä¸å›½ä¸ºä½•æ‹’ç»äº†è‹è”白é€çš„巡洋舰
mil.news.sina.com.cn

 
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cattalonX said:
I have not seen reliable information in Chinese, but some people say it comes from the Jane’s Fight Ships 1962
don’t know if there’s anything in Russia
Click to expand...
Kingpin6100 said:
I read about it a while back - at some point, Kruschev offered a Pr. 26bis cruiser, and the Chinese were interested in a Sverdlov, but this would have required extremely high prices for the PLAN, from basing rights for the Russians all the way up to direct Soviet control of the navy, so these offers were rejected. Gonna try and find the source again

Looks like the Soviets offered Kaganovich after it was damaged in 1958, but the PLAN wanted a Sverdlov- the USSR offered Ordzhonikidze, but one Sino-Soviet split later, that ship was sold to Indonesia, and became Irian.

here's one source mentioning it:
Click to expand...
Thank you! Very interesting data!
 
cattalonX said:
Dilandu said:
Kingpin6100 said:
There were plans to sell/give a Pr. 26bis (Molotov) class cruiser to the PLAN pre Sino-Soviet split, but that's outside the bounds of this thread.
Click to expand...
Hm! Never heard about that. Could you please give details?
Click to expand...
I have not seen reliable information in Chinese, but some people say it comes from the Jane’s Fight Ships 1962
don’t know if there’s anything in Russia
View attachment 662350
Click to expand...
That is Chang Chun,
one of the 4 destroyers that PLAN bought from USSR. Her original name was Решительный.4 ships are all 07 Type destroyers.(Эскадренные миноносцы проекта 7)

1954-1955,four ships arrived in Qingdao,China.They are An Shan,Fu Shun,Chang Chun and Tai Yuan. 1630166086075.png
1630166239770.png
 
Oh,I've made a mistake.
I mistook CHANG CHUN for another one,a destroyer.:eek:
Maybe PLAN wanted to buy a 68-бис at first,but they failed for some reasons,and they had to name a destroyer.
 
Kingpin6100 said:
Dilandu said:
Kingpin6100 said:
There were plans to sell/give a Pr. 26bis (Molotov) class cruiser to the PLAN pre Sino-Soviet split, but that's outside the bounds of this thread.
Click to expand...
Hm! Never heard about that. Could you please give details?
Click to expand...
I read about it a while back - at some point, Kruschev offered a Pr. 26bis cruiser, and the Chinese were interested in a Sverdlov, but this would have required extremely high prices for the PLAN, from basing rights for the Russians all the way up to direct Soviet control of the navy, so these offers were rejected. Gonna try and find the source again

Looks like the Soviets offered Kaganovich after it was damaged in 1958, but the PLAN wanted a Sverdlov- the USSR offered Ordzhonikidze, but one Sino-Soviet split later, that ship was sold to Indonesia, and became Irian.

here's one source mentioning it:

mil.news.sina.com.cn

深度：ä¸å¯æ€è®® ä¸å›½ä¸ºä½•æ‹’ç»äº†è‹è”白é€çš„巡洋舰

深度：ä¸å¯æ€è®® ä¸å›½ä¸ºä½•æ‹’ç»äº†è‹è”白é€çš„巡洋舰
mil.news.sina.com.cn

Click to expand...
The source is available to see in a Chinese magazine called Weapon too. (2016.Issue 8 P81-83)
I have read books written by the writer,Sa Su(萨苏).He is a famous writer. 1630168661683.png
Here are some words translated by machine:

According to Xiao Jinguang's memoirs, there are two 7000 ton light cruisers and four destroyers; The commemorative article of the Sixth Fleet (sixth detachment) said that there were 4 light cruisers and 4 destroyers; In his later years, the person in charge of buying the ship recalled that there were five frigates and several minesweepers. These are the numbers of contracts signed or ready to sign. At that time, the Sixth Fleet prepared the names and establishment of eight ships, four were city names (like frigates) and four were the names of "wind" (minesweepers); The seventh fleet has at least four ships reserved (I don't know whether to include the three ships that arrived later)
 
PLAN didn't get the boat

However, it is said that the main guns originally intended to give to the unfinished sverdlov were given to China as coastal defense artillery.
It is also the most special caliber artillery of China's coastal defense forces.

The names of the so-called four "light cruisers" are Changchun, Anton, Xiangtan and Langzhong. The four "destroyers" have spring, summer, winter and west winds (the reason why there is no autumn wind is that this name has been used to name a minesweeper)
 
About the PLAN cruisers，here is some information
This is the Memoirs of XiaoJingguang（He is first PLAN commander）

肖劲光回忆录（续集） - 单本综合 - 抗日战争纪念网

扉页 目录 第一章 从陆军到海军 第二章 海军建军会议 第三章 打好三个桩子 第四章 关于武器装备 第五章 巩固中求发展 第六章 海军建设的新篇章 第七章 谋求海军新技术 第八章 检查团到来前
www.krzzjn.com
On PDF page 123（realbook page 95）

In 1950, PLAN ordered two 7,000-ton light cruisers and five escort destroyers from the United Kingdom through Hong Kong.
But due to the outbreak of the Korean War, the order was cancelled
 
cattalonX said:
In 1950, PLAN ordered two 7,000-ton light cruisers and five escort destroyers from the United Kingdom through Hong Kong.
But due to the outbreak of the Korean War, the order was cancelled
Click to expand...
Really? Never heard of this before. Would like to see a British source for this.
Probably more likely to be ex-RN ships than new construction, the cruisers may have been pre-war Leander-class ships (the only 7,000-ton light cruisers the RN had), although most had already been scrapped by 1950 or the process of scrapping.
 
Well there was the HMS Aurora an Arethusa class light cruiser which became the nationalist Chungkinh in 1948 and then defected to the communist and got like 4 other names....
Tchoungking 1949,
Huang He 1951,
Pei Ching 1951,
Kuang Chou 1958

Looks like the communists were not so united regarding ship names???
 
Tzoli said:
Well there was the HMS Aurora an Arethusa class light cruiser
Click to expand...
True but the Arethusas were 5,300-tons. The Leanders at least would have offered some commonality of armament.
I can't imagine the British Labour government doing a deal with Communist China in this period however.
 
7.000tons was the quote yes but by late WW2 the full displacement of the Arethusas were closing to 7.000tons!
But indeed, I see no other government willing to sell any military hardware to a communist nation of that time except the Soviet Union and maybe some minor nation say South American.
 
Tzoli said:
Well there was the HMS Aurora an Arethusa class light cruiser which became the nationalist Chungkinh in 1948 and then defected to the communist and got like 4 other names....
Tchoungking 1949,
Huang He 1951,
Pei Ching 1951,
Kuang Chou 1958

Looks like the communists were not so united regarding ship names???
Click to expand...
I never heard the fourth name，The first name is the name from the KMT
The third name is to give up repairs, as the name of the dormitory ship at 1964
 
Not much difference only the funnels and light gun armament placement, but you can expect that sort of difference without official drawings or sketches as different artist might interpret the data differently about these small cruisers.
 
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Bought this magazine
some of the mine torpedo school's pre-war ship plans, mostly torpedo boats like CMB and MAS, only a few larger support ships and China never got them
A German-built support ship was taken over by the German Navy and taken over by Denmark after World War II
Named Qi Jiguang（an ancient general famous for defeating Japanese pirates）
length 96.2 meters，full load displacement 2620 tons
Two 88mm main guns，Two twin 37mm guns and Four 20mm guns
Another one, built in Hong Kong, was captured by the Japanese and taken by the Dutch after the war
Named Tan Lun（also an ancient general）
length 223 feet Displacement 750 tons
Three 3-inch main guns
IMG_20220121_021737.jpg IMG_20220121_021750.jpg
 
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The Uraga Dock Company's proposal for a Heavy Cruiser for China:
www.deviantart.com

Uraga Shipyard Heavy Cruiser Design for China by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com www.deviantart.com
dezlfeq-4bb95ae3-4139-458d-a09d-50e04b743b7a.png


The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 162,5 (pp) x 15,25 x 4,87 meters
Displacement: 6.000tons (standard)
Engines: Unknown around 35-40.000shp Kampon Steam Turbines, 2 shafts
Range: Unknown likely around 13.000km at 22km/h (7.000nm at 12knots)
Speed: 52km/h (28knots)
Armour: Unknown, likely 25mm Deck, 51mm (25+25mm) over Machinery, 19mm over Magazines Belt
Armaments:
3x2 20cm/50 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Guns
4x1 12cm/45 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Guns,
4x1 76mm/40 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type DP-AA Guns,
4x1 12,7mm or 13,2mm AA Guns
2x3 533mm Torpedo Tubes
30x Depth Charges
2x Seaplanes, Aichi AB-3
 
Tzoli said:
The Uraga Dock Company's proposal for a Heavy Cruiser for China:
www.deviantart.com

Uraga Shipyard Heavy Cruiser Design for China by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com www.deviantart.com
dezlfeq-4bb95ae3-4139-458d-a09d-50e04b743b7a.png


The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 162,5 (pp) x 15,25 x 4,87 meters
Displacement: 6.000tons (standard)
Engines: Unknown around 35-40.000shp Kampon Steam Turbines, 2 shafts
Range: Unknown likely around 13.000km at 22km/h (7.000nm at 12knots)
Speed: 52km/h (28knots)
Armour: Unknown, likely 25mm Deck, 51mm (25+25mm) over Machinery, 19mm over Magazines Belt
Armaments:
3x2 20cm/50 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Guns
4x1 12cm/45 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Guns,
4x1 76mm/40 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type DP-AA Guns,
4x1 12,7mm or 13,2mm AA Guns
2x3 533mm Torpedo Tubes
30x Depth Charges
2x Seaplanes, Aichi AB-
Click to expand...
TZoli starting on the chinese cruiser offers, what a lovely day
 
Kingpin6100 said:
Tzoli said:
The Uraga Dock Company's proposal for a Heavy Cruiser for China:
www.deviantart.com

Uraga Shipyard Heavy Cruiser Design for China by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com www.deviantart.com
dezlfeq-4bb95ae3-4139-458d-a09d-50e04b743b7a.png


The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 162,5 (pp) x 15,25 x 4,87 meters
Displacement: 6.000tons (standard)
Engines: Unknown around 35-40.000shp Kampon Steam Turbines, 2 shafts
Range: Unknown likely around 13.000km at 22km/h (7.000nm at 12knots)
Speed: 52km/h (28knots)
Armour: Unknown, likely 25mm Deck, 51mm (25+25mm) over Machinery, 19mm over Magazines Belt
Armaments:
3x2 20cm/50 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Guns
4x1 12cm/45 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Guns,
4x1 76mm/40 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type DP-AA Guns,
4x1 12,7mm or 13,2mm AA Guns
2x3 533mm Torpedo Tubes
30x Depth Charges
2x Seaplanes, Aichi AB-
Click to expand...
TZoli starting on the chinese cruiser offers, what a lovely day
Click to expand...
These are Japanese offers and I've started yesteryear
 
I wonder, why all Japanese export cruisers for China have such mediocre speed? No more than 28 knots at best, 25 knot soften. 3-5 knots less than international average.

Was that the reluctance to risk higher speed on quife small units? Or secret Japanese navy demand, that export projects should not be able to outrun IJN own cruisers?
 
Usually if a set of designs had one or more characteristics are the same that means the navy ordered them had those specifics explicitly stated. For example all cruisers are maximum 6.000tons in displacement and maximum 6x 20cm armament. As for speed they might had to work with the old mixed cruisers the ROCN aquired before WW1
 
Tzoli said:
For example all cruisers are maximum 6.000tons in displacement and maximum 6x 20cm armament
Click to expand...
Hm, so it may actually be Chinese demands? I was under impression, that those designs were mostly the Japanese own initiative, based on what they assumed China may need/afford.
 
Dilandu said:
I wonder, why all Japanese export cruisers for China have such mediocre speed? No more than 28 knots at best, 25 knot soften. 3-5 knots less than international average.

Was that the reluctance to risk higher speed on quife small units? Or secret Japanese navy demand, that export projects should not be able to outrun IJN own cruisers?
Click to expand...
Price is a big factor, too.
 
Dilandu said:
Tzoli said:
For example all cruisers are maximum 6.000tons in displacement and maximum 6x 20cm armament
Click to expand...
Hm, so it may actually be Chinese demands? I was under impression, that those designs were mostly the Japanese own initiative, based on what they assumed China may need/afford.
Click to expand...
6000 ton displacement and 8 inch main gun is at the request of China
and the British Design 970 also has 6000 tons displacement but faster
 
唔，我在本国的论坛上发现了这里的链接，翻墙来学习一下

Well, I found the link here on a forum in my home country, go over the wall to learn
 
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