Tzoli

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Here is a list to my knowledge of what warship designs were offered to the Chinese Navy before the Cold War, before it became the People's Republic of China. This includes the Qing Dynasty, Republic of China and Nationalist China (Chiang Kai-Shek's Clique).

The warship designs as follows:

Submarines:
IvS Minelayer design - 1929 (Netherlands/Germany) 490/660tons 1x1 76mm AA, 1x1 20mm AA, 2x2 533mm TT, 20 mines

Destroyers:
IvS Small design - 1929 (Netherlands/Germany) 600tons 2x1 102mm, 3x1 37mm AA, 2x2 533mm TT, 10 mines
IvS Large design - 1929 (Netherlands/Germany) 1.300tons 4x1 127mm, 1x1 76mm AA, 2x3 533mm
Harima Shipyard Design 1007 - 1931 (Japan) 850tons 3x1 12cm, 2x1 12,7mm or 13,2mm AA, 2x3 533mm TT, 36 DC
Thornycroft Design - 1934 (United Kingdom) 800tons 3x1 120mm, 2x1 40mm AA, 2x3 533mm TT, 36 DC

Protected Cruisers:
Armstrong Design 732A - 1911 (United Kingdom) 3.700tons armament unknown
Armstrong Design - 1911 (United Kingdom) 1.500tons armament unknown

Light Cruisers:
Monfalcone Small Cruiser Design - 1914 (Austro-Hungarian Empire) 1.800tons either 10x1 10cm, 4x1 47mm, 2x1 45cm TT or 2x2 12cm, 8x1 66mm, 4x1 47mm, 2x1 45cm TT
IvS design - 1929 (Netherlands/Germany) 6.000tons 3x3 15cm, 4x1 76mm AA, 4x2 40mm AA, 2x3 533mm TT, 25 DC
Harima Shipyard Design 1.300tons -1929 (Japan) 1.300tons 1x1 15cm, 1x1 12cm, 3x1 76mm, 4x1 57mm, 1x1 76mm AA
Harima Shipyard Design 1005 -1931 (Japan) 3.500tons 5x2 14cm, 6x1 76mm AA, 4x1 12,7mm or 13,2mm AA, 2x3 533mm TT
Harima Shipyard Design 3.600tons -1936 (Japan) 3.600tons 4x2 14cm, 4x1 76mm AA, 4x1 12,7mm or 13,2mm AA, 2x3 533mm TT, 30 DC

Armoured Cruisers:
Armstrong Design 421 - 1903 (United Kingdom) 4.600tons 4x1 203mm, 10x1 102mm
Armstrong Design 458 - 1903 (United Kingdom) 9.000tons 2x1 234mm, 10x1 190mm, 8x1 76mm
Armstrong Design 459 - 1903 (United Kingdom) 9.000tons 6x1 190mm, 8x1 76mm
Armstrong Design 460 - 1903 (United Kingdom) 6.000tons 6x1 190mm, 8x1 76mm
Armstrong Design 460A - 1903 (United Kingdom) 6.000tons armament unknown probably similar to design 460 or 458
Vickers Design 326 - 1907 (United Kingdom) 8.000tons 2x2 254mm, 18x1 152mm, 4x1 76mm, 2x1 457mm TT
Vickers Design 329 - 1907 (United Kingdom) 8.000tons 2x2 234mm, 12x1 102mm, 2x1 457mm TT
Armstrong Design 508 - 1907 (United Kingdom) 6.000tons armament unknown
Armstrong Design 577 - 1907 (United Kingdom) 5.600tons 2x2 190mm, 10x1 120mm, 12x1 47mm, 1x1 457mm TT
Armstrong Design 579 - 1907 (United Kingdom) 8.000tons 6x2 190mm

Heavy Cruisers:
Monfalcone Large Cruiser Design - 1914 (Austro-Hungarian Empire) 4.300tons, 2x2 20cm, 12x1 12cm, 10x1 47mm, 4x1 37mm, 2x1 45cm TT
Vickers Design 970 - 1929 (United Kingdom) 6.000tons 2x2 203mm, 4x1 102mm AA, 4x2 40mm AA, 18 DC
Uraga Shipyard Design - 1931 (Japan) 6.000tons, 3x2 20cm, 4x1 12cm, 4x1 76mm AA, 2x3 533mm TT
Nagasaki/Mitsubishi Shipyard Design - 1931 (Japan) 5.500tons, 3x2 20cm, 6x1 76mm AA, 4x1 12,7mm or 13,2mm AA, 2x3 533mm TT
Nagasaki/Mitsubishi Shipyard Design - 1931 (Japan) 5.800tons, 3x2 20cm, 4x1 12cm, 4x1 76mm AA, 4x1 12,7mm or 13,2mm AA, 2x3 533mm TT
Nagasaki/Mitsubishi Shipyard Design - 1931 (Japan) 6.000tons, 3x2 20cm, 6x1 76mm AA, 4x1 12,7mm or 13,2mm AA, 2x3 533mm TT
Nagasaki/Mitsubishi Shipyard Design - 1931 (Japan) 6.150tons, 3x2 20cm, 2x2 14cm, 3x1 76mm AA, 2x1 40mm AA, 2x3 533mm TT 30 DC
Harima Shipyard Design 1006A -1931 (Japan) 6.000tons 3x2 20cm, 2x2 14cm, 4x1 76mm AA, 4x1 12,7mm or 13,2mm AA 2x3 533mm TT 30 DC
Harima Shipyard Design 1006B -1931 (Japan) 6.000tons 3x2 20cm, 2x2 12cm, 4x1 76mm AA, 4x1 12,7mm or 13,2mm AA, 2x3 533mm TT 30 DC

Monitors:
Armstrong Design 578 Riverine Monitor - 1906 (United Kingdom) 2.000tons 8x1 120mm, 10x1 57mm

Coastal Battleships / Coastal Defence Ships:
Armstrong Design for China (Repeat Norge) - 1906 (United Kingdom) 3.800tons 2x1 209mm, 6x1 152mm, 6x1 76mm, 4x1 47mm, 2x1 457mm TT
Armstrong Design 580 - 1906 (United Kingdom) 7.500tons 2x2 305mm, 8x1 120mm, 4x1 47mm, 2x1 457mm TT
Armstrong Design 581 - 1906 (United Kingdom) 8.500tons 3x2 305mm, 8x1 120mm, 4x1 47mm, 2x1 457mm TT
Armstrong Design 705 - 1906 (United Kingdom) 7.500tons 2x1 305mm, 6x1 152mm, 2x1 533mm TT
Armstrong Design 706 - 1906 (United Kingdom) 8.000tons 1x2 305mm, 6x1 152mm, 2x1 533mm TT
Armstrong Design 733 - 1906 (United Kingdom) All other data is unknown
10400ton Design for China - 1914? (United Kingdom) 10.400tons 2x2 381mm, 8x1 120mm, 4x1 76mm, 2x1 533mm TT
14000ton Design for China - 1914? (United Kingdom) 14.000tons armament unknown
16000ton Design for China - 1914? (United Kingdom) 16.000tons armament unknown

Battlecruisers / fast armoured cruisers / cruiser-battleships / battleship-cruisers:
Vickers Design 459 - 1910 (United Kingdom) 14.750tons 2x2 254mm, 4x2 203mm, 16x1 120mm, 2x1 533mm TT
Vickers Design 460 - 1910 (United Kingdom) 14.600tons 2x2 254mm, 6x1 203mm, 14x1 120mm, 2x1 533mm TT
Vickers Design 461 - 1910 (United Kingdom) 15.000tons 4x2 254mm, 16x1 120mm, 2x1 533mm TT

Battleships:
Vickers Design 181 - 1905 (United Kingdom) 12.000tons 6x2 254mm
Vickers Design 325 - 1907 (United Kingdom) 10.000tons 2x2 305mm, 4x1 234mm, 12x1 102mm, 2x1 457mm TT
Vickers Design 330 - 1907 (United Kingdom) 2x2 305mm, 28x1 120mm, 2x1 457mm TT
Vickers Design 331 - 1907 (United Kingdom) 2x2 305mm, 16x1 152mm, 2x1 457mm TT
Vickers Design 332A - 1907 (United Kingdom) 2x3 or 3x2 305mm, 16x1 120mm, 2x1 457mm TT
Vickers Design 335A - 1907 (United Kingdom) 2x1 305mm, 4x2 234mm, 12x1 102mm, 2x1 457mm TT

Seaplane Tenders:
Thornycroft Design 739A - 1929 (United Kingdom) 3.000tons 3x1 127mm, 4x1 40mm AA, 7 seaplanes
 

Kingpin6100

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Uraga Shipyard Design - 1931 (Japan) 6.000tons, 3x2 20cm, 4x1 12cm, 4x1 76mm AA, 2x3 533mm TT
Nagasaki/Mitsubishi Shipyard Design - 1931 (Japan) 5.500tons, 3x2 20cm, 6x1 76mm AA, 4x1 12,7mm or 13,2mm AA, 2x3 533mm TT
Nagasaki/Mitsubishi Shipyard Design - 1931 (Japan) 5.800tons, 3x2 20cm, 4x1 12cm, 4x1 76mm AA, 4x1 12,7mm or 13,2mm AA, 2x3 533mm TT
Nagasaki/Mitsubishi Shipyard Design - 1931 (Japan) 6.000tons, 3x2 20cm, 6x1 76mm AA, 4x1 12,7mm or 13,2mm AA, 2x3 533mm TT
Nagasaki/Mitsubishi Shipyard Design - 1931 (Japan) 6.150tons, 3x2 20cm, 2x2 14cm, 3x1 76mm AA, 2x1 40mm AA, 2x3 533mm TT 30 DC
Harima Shipyard Design 1006A -1931 (Japan) 6.000tons 3x2 20cm, 2x2 14cm, 4x1 76mm AA, 4x1 12,7mm or 13,2mm AA 2x3 533mm TT 30 DC
Harima Shipyard Design 1006B -1931 (Japan) 6.000tons 3x2 20cm, 2x2 12cm, 4x1 76mm AA, 4x1 12,7mm or 13,2mm AA, 2x3 533mm TT 30 DC


Would these be in the Hiraga archive?
 

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8542312469_cea3c7977b_b.jpg

From an old issue of Warship: This seems to be the one listed as the 1914 10400 ton coast defense ship in Tzoli's list, but the article seems to indicate it was actually slightly later. It's interesting that this design uses the standard Royal Navy 15" 42 caliber gun rather than the 15"45 that tended to appear in British export designs of the period.
 

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Light Cruisers:
(snip)
Harima Shipyard Design 3.600tons -1936 (Japan) 3.600tons 4x2 14cm, 4x1 76mm AA, 4x1 12,7mm or 13,2mm AA, 2x3 533mm TT, 30 DC

1936? Seems somewhat improbable given that Japan peeled of Manchuria (=>Manchukuo) starting in 1931, and were fairly non-grata with the UK and US by 1933.
 

Tzoli

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Those were not from the Hiraga archive but from a Taiwanese archive, will post later the official documents but the years are accurate: 1929,31,36!
The documents does not state for which warlord these designs were offered: Manchukou, Chiang Kai-Shek, Guang Xi Clique or generally for China.
 

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Interesting! The (New) Guangxi Clique was pretty anti-Japanese after the Mukden Incident (they'd been at least arguably pro-Japanese a fair amount of the time before then, particularly when they were feuding with the Nanjing government (Chiang) during the Central Plains War of 1929-1930). I guess I can imagine Harima thinking they might sell a moderately small cruiser to Manchukuo (the Japanese did give them an aged destroyer in 1937).
 

Tzoli

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The Harima documents stated from 1931 April 6 and August 10, and 1936 August 24.

The Nagasaki/Mitsubishi documents was from 1931 March 18, July 13, 14, 25, October 2

The Uraga design is not clear, the date stamp shows 3 numbers and Kanjis: 6. 10. 7. so this could be 1932,33 or 36 though a page before it shows the date 1931 November 5th and a Chinese Name: S. K. Chen Esq. connected to the K. Takaiwa & Company, Ninghai
 
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Dilandu

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P.S. A puzzling thing is lack of interest in submarines - which actually could be a cheap way to deter more powerful Japanese and Europeans navies. Even considering that Europe might be reluctant to build submarines for China, there were still US and USSR...
 

Tzoli

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Indeed, the cruisers represent mostly modified Aobas with one being a direct mix of Kuma and Aoba (3 funnels of Kuma with their distinct bulbous funnel caps, and Aoba style bridge and gun layout)
The Harima 1.300ton version clearly a Training cruiser with it's 4 different gun calibres.
 

Tzoli

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Here are the original files on the Taiwanese archive found by a Japanese friend of mine, to save you have to right click and wait a few seconds to start (their servers ain't fast) or left click to view:

But I've uploaded them on my google drive account for easier download:
 
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Tzoli

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Here is the 1936 Harima design:
(Note the stamp on the upper right corner of the drawing)
I don't know how to direct link to google drive uploaded images so here they are:
Data pages:

Drawings:

The rest of the designs:
Harima designs: In documents 12 and 13
IvS designs: In document 4
Nagasaki/Mitsubishi designs: In document 11
Thornycroft Designs: In document 1
Uraga Design: In document 6
 

Tzoli

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And 15Gb is too small to me....
 

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Thank you! Very fascinating stuff. I wonder if any of these were offered to Thailand?
 

Tzoli

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Well not really the Sri Ayuthas were built in 1937/38 and laid down in 1936 so the closest date I could think of a design study was 1934/35. They were built in the Kawasaki shipyards of Kobe. Harima was part of the Kobe Steel Works so it is likely such documents might exits in the Thai Archives.
 

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Here is the 1936 Harima design:
(Note the stamp on the upper right corner of the drawing)
I don't know how to direct link to google drive uploaded images so here they are:
Data pages:

Drawings:

The rest of the designs:
Harima designs: In documents 12 and 13
IvS designs: In document 4
Nagasaki/Mitsubishi designs: In document 11
Thornycroft Designs: In document 1
Uraga Design: In document 6
Very interesting, seems like a 4 turret variant of the Ning Hai, also built by Harima
 

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Damn what a discovery, well done mr. Tzoli, i know Chinese have a rebuild naval programs at some point of ww-1 but they never achieve it because the corruption of many warlords and country being torn apart by major powers.

I didn't even know IvS doing export market too, the last time they design a 32000 tons battlecruiser to compete with Pr.1047 battlecruiser but lost.
 

Tzoli

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I doubt IvS designed a battlecruiser to compete with Project 1047 when IvS defunct in 1933 and the 1047 design started in 1938/39!
 

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I doubt IvS designed a battlecruiser to compete with Project 1047 when IvS defunct in 1933 and the 1047 design started in 1938/39!

Maybe i misread then, since IvS working on Pr.323 (1047 counterpart) battlecruiser in 1939,1940.
 

Tzoli

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alexi

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Not from wiki, from netherlands navy site, they did mentioned IvS staffs working with NEVESBU to design a battlecruiser.
 

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Around 1896, French designer Charles Doyère provided the Chinese government with 2 coastal defense ironclad projects, one of which has a displacement of 2,900 tons and the other has a displacement of 5,600 tons.
These plans were discovered by Chinese researcher Zhang Liyuan(张黎源) and his colleagues in a French archive.
For details, please visit the link below, but unfortunately, this article is written in Chinese……
2900.png
5600.png
 

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The Harima documents stated from 1931 April 6 and August 10, and 1936 August 24. This later date indicates the offer was for Manchukou because the Marco Polo Bridge Incident happened in July 7-9 which strted the second Sino-Japanese War and the eventual formation of the United Front.

The Nagasaki/Mitsubishi documents was from 1931 March 18, July 13, 14, 25, October 2

The Uraga design is not clear, the date stamp shows 3 numbers and Kanjis: 6. 10. 7. so this could be 1932,33 or 36 though a page before it shows the date 1931 November 5th and a Chinese Name: S. K. Chen Esq. connected to the K. Takaiwa & Company, Ninghai
S. K. Chen may be the abbreviation of Chen Shaokuan(陈绍宽)
Chen was then the acting Minister of the Navy of the Chinese government
 

Tzoli

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Those are quite long barrels for a late 19th century vessel!!

Regarding weapons, the 1929 IvS designs had weird choices for gun calibres! So I have difficult to determine the true weapons to be used on these proposals!
6" guns of the CL (The turret looks very German)
149mm/60 German SK C/25

127mm/50 of the DD:
5"/50 British-American BL Mk VI-VII / Mark 5-6, 127mm/50 Japanese 15th Year Type / Type 15

102mm/45 of the DD:
4"/45 British QF MK V or XV or BL Mk X, 102mm/45 Italian OTO Modello 1919, 102mm/45 Soviet B-2 Pattern 1930

75-76mm/45 of the SSM, DD and CL:
Either British 12pdr 20cwt HA guns, or the French 76mm/45 Modéle 1911 guns (No Dutch or Germans guns of this calibre to my knowledge)

37mm/60 of the DD:
37mm/56 American M1 Browning MG or 1pdr Mark 16, 37mm/54 Breda Modello 1932
 

Dilandu

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Around 1896, French designer Charles Doyère provided the Chinese government with 2 coastal defense ironclad projects, one of which has a displacement of 2,900 tons and the other has a displacement of 5,600 tons.
These plans were discovered by Chinese researcher Zhang Liyuan(张黎源) and his colleagues in a French archive.
For details, please visit the link below, but unfortunately, this article is written in Chinese……

Extremely interesting! Hm. The second one looks like smaller version of "Henri IV".
 

Dilandu

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Those are quite long barrels for a late 19th century vessel!!

French Navy in 1890s was quite fond of long-barreled guns; while most contemporary weapons were 30-35 calibers length, French used 40-45 and even 50-caliber guns. If I recall correctly, French admirals though high muzzle velocity to be the most important factor, because they thought that naval battle could be decisive only on the distances short enough for the main belts to be penetrated with guarantee.
 

Dilandu

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P.S. The upper one is armed with one 27-cm gun in rear turret, and 14-cm gun in forward turret. The second one armament is not clear, but considering the shape and size of guns, I suspect that the main armament is two 30-cm or 27-cm 45-caliber long guns.
 

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Those are quite long barrels for a late 19th century vessel!!
I think that's an optical illusion caused by them being single turrets, which are smaller in diameter. Look at the Wikipedia pic of FS Masséna, laid down in 1892. The ship looks for all the world like she's sporting high velocity guns dreamt up by Gerard Bull....but the forward turret houses an ordinary 12" 40 caliber gun.
 

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Dilandu

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I think that's an optical illusion caused by them being single turrets, which are smaller in diameter. Look at the Wikipedia pic of FS Masséna, laid down in 1892. The ship looks for all the world like she's sporting high velocity guns dreamt up by Gerard Bull....but the forward turret houses an ordinary 12" 40 caliber gun.

Well, the contemporary British Majestic-class was armed only with 35-caliber guns)
 

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Here is a list to my knowledge of what warship designs were offered to the Chinese Navy before the Cold War, before it became the People's Republic of China. This includes the Qing Dynasty, Republic of China and Nationalist China (Chiang Kai-Shek's Clique).
Thanks for the list, i always like thinking of What if the Imperial Chinese Navy manged to grow and be able to fight a second war with Japan.
 

Dilandu

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What if the Imperial Chinese Navy manged to grow and be able to fight a second war with Japan.

Hm, it would require Guangxu staying in power at very least. And frankly, I doubt that Imperial China would have much interest in fighting a second war with Japan anywhere in early XX century.
 

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What if the Imperial Chinese Navy manged to grow and be able to fight a second war with Japan.

Hm, it would require Guangxu staying in power at very least. And frankly, I doubt that Imperial China would have much interest in fighting a second war with Japan anywhere in early XX century.
If imperial China in one way ore another mange to grow it will become a treat again for Japan.

One of the thing i had was Imperial China siding with Germany before World War I broke out and most of its ships being made ore desgined in Germany.
 

Dilandu

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he battleship builders
a 650feet armored cruiser
Hm. It's bigger than "Indefatigable" and only 50 feet less than "Lion", while having nearly the same propulsive power. Stated to be an "Improved Lion", i.e. probably a 343-mm gun battlecruiser... albeit it may actually have 356-mm export guns.
 

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In Chinese historical materials,the Monfalcone Cruiser has armament different
1800tons
1800.png
4800tons
4800.png
 

Tzoli

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The Monfalcone designs especially the small one according to the sources had indeed started with a 15cm armed cruiser but the Chinese quickly saw that 2 twin mounts on such a hull was not a good idea despite the Austrian designers told them otherwise and issued a revised design with 2x2 12cm ones:

The number of funnels and thus the boiler arrangement too seems to have changed.

Where did you get this page? (Not that aI could read any of it...)
 

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