Post-1914 Pre-Dreadnought and Armoured Cruiser Modernizations

World B4 said:
Posted March 31… you scare me. Super cool, I didn’t intend for the thread to be focused on aviation ships but I had no idea this existed. That’s as big of a fish as I thought I could possibly catch with this
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But the magazine came out much sooner so no it's not April's fool ship.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
I did this one a while back for some discussion or another. HMAS Australia modernized.
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You have an advantage starting with a British battlecruiser because you already have a relatively long, relatively large, relatively fast hull that's built around turbines from the start. These ships were early enough, however, that a reconstructive modernization 20 years after completion might justify a newer, better set of turbines in addition to new boilers and oil firing, even if the current ones were in good repair.

The main problem with a reconstruction in ~1930 is that it's just before the radar era, and you might be up for another refit in 1940 or thereabouts (if the ship can be spared/is still afloat) to install more generator capacity.
 
pathology_doc said:
You have an advantage starting with a British battlecruiser because you already have a relatively long, relatively large, relatively fast hull that's built around turbines from the start. These ships were early enough, however, that a reconstructive modernization 20 years after completion might justify a newer, better set of turbines in addition to new boilers and oil firing, even if the current ones were in good repair.

The main problem with a reconstruction in ~1930 is that it's just before the radar era, and you might be up for another refit in 1940 or thereabouts (if the ship can be spared/is still afloat) to install more generator capacity.
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That requires a different solution. There, the issue is electrical generation. For RN and Commonwealth ships the issue is they are fitted with DC electrical systems. The RN being hidebound and conservative felt that DC was good enough and safer than going to an AC system. The problem with that is that most electronics--eg., radar etc.--needs AC to work. This results in having to add motor-generator sets for DC to AC conversion (heavy and bulky). In the 40's static inverters didn't exist yet.

The other issue is total load. This rises almost exponentially during WW 2. The other issue that would arise with wartime service is fitting emergency diesel generators to the ship. Now, I could see the Australians simply saying in say 1942, "Hey Yanks, can we send our battleship over to the states for an upgrade?" If the US agreed, a West Coast refit of say 6 months has the Australia back in service in time for Guadalcanal.
 
World B4 said:
But a plan for converting a full fledged pre-dreadnought battleship… thank you Greece
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Well, it was completely obsolete by 1926 anyway. And it's not like Greece needed it much. Before the Goeben/Yavuz reconstruction started in 1927, Turkish Navy wasn't considered a significan threat anymore; Yugoslavia have no naval forces to speak about, and Italy was just too powerful to even consider deploying a pair of obsolete semi-dreadnoughts againt Regia Marina. So the idea of turning obsolete hull into something modern & useful was attractive.

The situation changed after Turkey proceeded with Yavuz repair & refit. The Hellenic Navy suddently found itself at significant disadvantage, and two elderly battleships (plus Averof) were essentially the only force that could hope to counter the battlecruiser.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
That requires a different solution. There, the issue is electrical generation.
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I covered that in my second paragraph. I didn't explicitly address the AC/DC issue, but I am well aware of it. The ultimate solution you propose (refit in US yards, assuming they have the room) is probably the best one. They can work out what they want to put on her in terms of new AA and major fire-control capability (including radar sets) and back-fill the AC generator capacity from there as part of the rebuild.
 
fonzeppelin.livejournal.com

К вопросу о корабельных гаубицах...

380-мм Belagerungshaubitze M 16 на австро-венгерском броненосце береговой обороны «Будапешт» (тип «Монарх»). Старый корабль 1896 года постройки двадцать лет спустя имел уже очень ограниченную боевую ценность, и применялся в основном для обстрела итальянского побережья. В 1918 году, для…
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I hadn't been able to find a good picture of the Budapest post 15in conversion for years, until I stumbled across this page. Thank you Dilandu! Like your pfp, it protrudes beautifully yet tastefully. I owe a lot to this community for the knowledge and photographs of "secret projects" from the last years of the Austro-Hungarian Empire's existence.
 
World B4 said:
fonzeppelin.livejournal.com

К вопросу о корабельных гаубицах...

380-мм Belagerungshaubitze M 16 на австро-венгерском броненосце береговой обороны «Будапешт» (тип «Монарх»). Старый корабль 1896 года постройки двадцать лет спустя имел уже очень ограниченную боевую ценность, и применялся в основном для обстрела итальянского побережья. В 1918 году, для…
fonzeppelin.livejournal.com fonzeppelin.livejournal.com
I hadn't been able to find a good picture of the Budapest post 15in conversion for years, until I stumbled across this page. Thank you Dilandu! Like your pfp, it protrudes beautifully yet tastefully. I owe a lot to this community for the knowledge and photographs of "secret projects" from the last years of the Austro-Hungarian Empire's existence.
Click to expand...
eeab53ee3d6d55fbf8ca40907a224f4a20a4dd30.jpg 0_kia_sorento_01.jpg
sms-budapest.gif
 
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awhalen61 said:
View attachment 765237

In 1926, Greece prepared a conversion of Lemnos to a aircraft carrier. While it seems a list of specifications hasn't been found, it looks like she'd have kept her belt 178mm guns, as well as a 3"? dual purpose gun forward. Seems like they looked at having a rear catapult and a flying off platform in front of the 3" gun.

Source is "The Design Study of a Greek Aircraft Carrier" available online here pg 48-51: https://issuu.com/56984/docs/128_web_rdy
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This drawing (re-scaling it to the hull of the Mississippi class) is very out of aspect ratio (Tall and wide) correctly scaling it will become this:
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(Yes I'm drawing this proposal! ) :)
 
Here it is:


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My friend just sent me this, which is what you guys asked in this thread. From Okrety Wojenne No.182 - 2/2024
An 1930's modernization proposal of Kilkis and Lemnos:
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WARNING!!! Google translation of the text coming!!!

The Story of the Greek Battleships Kilkis and Lemnos,

Project of a minor modernization of battleships from July 1930. Drawing: Maritime Museum

Kilkis to equal the combat potential of the Turkish battlecruiser Yavuz Sultan E Selim (formerly German Goeben), which was undergoing refit at the time. In February 1928, the government once again considered the possibility of completing the battleship Salamis based on a design modernized to counter Yavuz. The Minister of the Navy estimated that Salamis could be completed by early 1930, while Yavuz was to be ready for service a year earlier. Until then, the twin ships Kilkis and Lemnos should remain in service. Comparative studies showed that Yavuz could easily eliminate both Greek ships, utilizing its longer artillery range and higher speed. The Greek battleships could only engage on equal terms at ranges below 12,000 meters, where their intermediate artillery could be brought into action. Nevertheless, outdated underwater protection and weak horizontal armor still made them inferior. Kilkis was in much better technical condition than her twin and in December 1928 was ordered to La Spezia for hull cleaning. In July 1928, the battleship became the flagship of the training division, but her duties were soon reduced to stationary duties – as a residential hull for students of the Artillery School. Lemnos was also used as a training hulk for sailors, mechanics, and repairmen. Because the submerged waters prevented the ships from entering the naval base at Salamis, both were anchored in Piraeus, and from the end of 1928 in Keratsini. In August nn 1929, Lemnos was docked in Malta - the last docking of the twin battleships.

In mid-1928, Venizelos was re-elected prime minister, and his government adopted a new stance on the need for larger surface ships. A naval commission was established to evaluate the suitability of the twin battleships, which in December 1929 presented two options. The ships were to be modernized at a cost of 34.5 million drachmas, with the intention of increasing their chances of survival in the new era of submarine and air warfare. The modernization would include improving horizontal defenses over the ammunition magazines, utilizing coal bunkers as a protective space in the event of an underwater explosion, increasing their anti-aircraft defenses with two 76 mm guns, and adding sponsons. The annual cost of operating and maintaining both ships was estimated at 4 million drachmas, which was deemed appropriate for use as headquarters for various naval schools. The second option was to convert the ships into stationary coastal batteries at a cost of 15 million drachmas. One ship would be stationed behind the island of Fleves to protect the entrance to the Saronic Gulf, while the other would be stationed at Kara Burnu near Thessaloniki to guard the Gulf of Thermaikos. Their funnels and lattice masts were to be dismantled, and their artillery range finders and anti-aircraft guns would be relocated. ashore. Horizontal shielding would be improved over the ammunition depots, and the wo- Anti-torpedo nets would be placed around the ships' wheels. Only one boiler room and one source of electrical power would remain. The annual cost of operating and maintaining two such artillery batteries was estimated at 1.5 million drachmas. A third option—scrapping the ships and using their turrets on land—was ruled out due to the enormous transportation costs. The committee recommended the first option and also proposed using Lemnos as a hulk for sailors at the Naval Base in Poros in the meantime. Despite the committee's recommendation, the government announced the sale of both twin battleships, so the decision to decommission Lemnos was officially signed in December 1930. The flag was lowered on March 20, 1931, and the vessel moored at the Salamis Naval Base, which had been dredged in the meantime. Despite this, discussion continued within naval circles about rebuilding Lemnos, and preliminary designs emerged. These proposed cutting the ship in two to lengthen it and increasing its armament potential by mounting one or two additional turrets from Kilkis amidships.

The withdrawal of the Kilkis took place in 1932, although the actual date varies in sources, as the unit was already in reserve at that time and its logbooks had not been updated. In March 1935, a group of army and navy officers, politically led by Venizelos, mobilized to overthrow the government he intended to restore in Greece.
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Asked the AI to "clean up the blueprint and make all the lines clear, while keeping all the lines as on original image". It managed to do it quite good:

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Asked then to remove the fold lines:

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It's interesting practical use for AI - restoration of poorly preserved or poorly scanned blueprints.
 
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Jumping off the discussion about the Greek predreadnoughts. Is there any more information, or even a sketch of a thorough modernization of the Georgios Averof cruiser in the interwar? Iirc the Webb naval mission described a heavier modernization, that included increased antitorpedo protection and deck armor , plus replacing the old machinery with oil fired turbines. As well as probably some dual purpose/AA armament and modern fire control.

Ultimately due to budget reasons the modernization was reduced to modernized fire control and AA armament.
 
Tsouk225 said:
Jumping off the discussion about the Greek predreadnoughts. Is there any more information, or even a sketch of a thorough modernization of the Georgios Averof cruiser in the interwar? Iirc the Webb naval mission described a heavier modernization, that included increased antitorpedo protection and deck armor , plus replacing the old machinery with oil fired turbines. As well as probably some dual purpose/AA armament and modern fire control.
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I was under impression that it was merely a proposal, not a comprehensive plan.
 
awhalen61 said:
View attachment 765237

In 1926, Greece prepared a conversion of Lemnos to a aircraft carrier. While it seems a list of specifications hasn't been found, it looks like she'd have kept her belt 178mm guns, as well as a 3"? dual purpose gun forward. Seems like they looked at having a rear catapult and a flying off platform in front of the 3" gun.

Source is "The Design Study of a Greek Aircraft Carrier" available online here pg 48-51: https://issuu.com/56984/docs/128_web_rdy
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Pages 48-51 but the article is in greek alphabet.
Here said that battleship Lemnos envisioning it as a small seaplane tender/carrier with a hangar and flight deck, but these plans never materialized due to cost or other priorities, leaving the famous cruiser Georgios Averof as Greece's primary early naval aviation platform until proper carriers arrived much later.
A design study in the 1920s proposed removing most guns, adding AA guns, and creating a 60m hangar for about 20 float/wheeled planes, with catapults and crane systems.
The conversion was not carried out because Greece had a small navy, and although Lemnos and Kilkis were useful as harbor defenses, their conversion was a complex and costly undertaking for ships that were already obsolete. Furthermore, the Hellenic Navy's initial air force relied on the armored cruiser Georgios Averof, which supported seaplanes and served as the flagship.
 
I stumbled across this picture of the Argentinian armoured cruiser General Pueyrredon: https://envisitadecortesia.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/pueyrredon-mmb.jpg
While clearly not a 'massive rebuild' she has received a fair level of modernization: the secondary 6" guns are moved from the (now eliminated) hull casemates up to the main deck; a new bridge is fitted; and the mast is now a tripod, with fire control positions. I have no idea if she received any propulsion system upgrades. The ship remined in service with the ARA until 1956 (!), so they got their money's worth.....
 
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warspite said:
I stumbled across this picture of the Argentinian armoured cruiser General Pueyrredon: https://envisitadecortesia.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/pueyrredon-mmb.jpg
While clearly not a 'massive rebuild' she has received a fair level of modernization: the secondary 6" guns are moved from the (now eliminated) hull casemates up to the main deck; a new bridge is fitted; and the mast is now a tripod, with fire control positions. I have no idea if she received any propulsion system upgrades. The ship remined in service with the ARA until 1956 (!), so they got their money's worth.....
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Her after-refit view.
 

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