Open fans vs multi-blade props

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What is the advantage of open-fan or propfan engines over regular propellers? Back around 1945 it was found that multi-blade contra-props did not really justify the cost and complexity. It was better to build a single, larger prop with no more than four blades. This maximised the mass flow which it pushed backwards and hence the propulsive efficiency. When the turbojet arrived, the fan did a rather different job; it compressed the incoming air and this could actually slow the air down. The turbofan thus grew a kind of dual personality, with differing requirements for the combustion chamber and bypass. Hence the popularity and economy of the turboprop, which had a fan for the one job and a prop for the other. Eventually the geared turbofan emerged, in which the first-stage fan is no longer directly couple to a turbine shaft and behaves more like a prop. The next step was to remove its shroud so that it could get bigger, and even more like a prop. So why the modern emphasis on keeping all those blades? What is their advantage over a bigger, more efficient prop?
 
Diameter ?? Prop noise ?? ( 'Bear' & 'Thunder-Screech') RPM matching of jet core ?? Trading efficiency for complexity / life-span ??

IIRC, machinery has evolved from single to double shaft, is now feeling its way towards more common use of three concentric shafts...
 
More blades, less pitch! That's really simple (pitch provides pressure differential, which inherently creates drag aside of the propulsive effect). ;)

(when in cruise regime, your engines will only have to sustain the constant speed of the airplane, hence only compensating drag. The more efficiently you do that, the less power is needed. The best the fuel efficiency.)
 
With an open rotor you generally have a larger diameter than a ducted fan, which means you're accelerating a larger air mass for thrust and, as a result, you don't have to increase the velocity as much as you would with a smaller ducted fan, which makes it more efficient for a given thrust generated. That's why helicopters are way more efficient in hover than a harrier or an F-35B. The helicopter has a large rotor area which doesn't need to accelerate the air mass that much to lift the vehicle. Whereas the Harrier and the F-35B have to accelerate the air mass to a much higher speed to generate the thrust they need for hover.

Now, the advantages of having a duct are, as you noted, noise reduction. It can also contain a fan/rotor blade if one should break off, hopefully preventing it from penetrating the fuselage. There's also greater safety that people won't walk into the blades on the ground when inside a duct. In terms of design constraints, they can be contained behind doors when not needed (See the F-35B lift fan). However, as TomcatVIP noted, a duct does add drag in and of itself and also adds weight, which will be seen in greater drag from the wing due to the greater weight it will have to lift.

As with everything aerospace, it's all about the trade-offs for a given mission that will determine what is best for a specific design.
 
At the risk of going off topic, might the 1946 or so Metropolitan Vickers F.5 engine be looked upon as an early example of an open fan engine?
 

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At the risk of going off topic, might the 1946 or so Metropolitan Vickers F.5 engine be looked upon as an early example of an open fan engine?
Yes. It's even the same fan architecture as on some of the UDFs from the 80s.
 
What is their advantage over a bigger, more efficient prop?
Basically comes down to how big a propellor you can fit. Once you've reached that limit then you start adding blades / blade area in order to turn extra power into thrust. Even narrowbody size gas turbines generate a lot of thrust compared to turboprops.

Then you get into optimisation for slightly higher Mach number operation, noise etc.
 
Basically comes down to how big a propellor you can fit. Once you've reached that limit then you start adding blades.
Yet these modern propfans come nowhere near the classic big-prop types of an earlier era.
The evidence gives the lie to that. For example the Allison 501-M78 had a propfan of 9 ft diameter. The GE36 ran to 12 ft. Russia's Progress D.7 achieves nearly 15 ft. By comparison the props on the WWII vintage Duplex Cyclones fitted to the B-29 were 4-bladed with a diameter of over 16.5 ft, and folks have gone even bigger since then. So no, propfans are being made smaller than conventional propellers, and there has to be a reason for that.

Even narrowbody size gas turbines generate a lot of thrust compared to turboprops.
That is a meaningless statement. You give no baseline for comparison. Some Russian turboprops give a great deal more thrust than most small gas turbines.

Then you get into optimisation for slightly higher Mach number operation, noise etc.
You mean like the 8-bladed, swept 17.5 ft monsters on the A400M? Except, those TP400-D6 engines are classed as turboprops and the hi-tech monsters are just plain old propellers. meanwhile the earlier "propfans" did have shrouds, and according to Allison they contoured the shroud to slow the air and thus reduce compressibility effects. In other words, you can go faster if you shroud the prop/fan. So no, I don't think you are on the ball there either.

Whatever is going on with these open-rotor propfans, it is about keeping diameter down. That both allows and requires higher RPM.

And at what technical step does one say, "It's not a turboprop like the TP400, it's an open-rotor propfan like the Progress D.7"? Both types can be direct-mounted or geared to a turbine shaft, so that cannot be distinction. And what advantage does the technical step deliver?
 
Were large props high atop wings less prone to bird strikes? Fan housings might suggest cave/knot-hole safety to fly towards at the last moment..like pets coldnose dark optics.
 
Yet these modern propfans come nowhere near the classic big-prop types of an earlier era.
The evidence gives the lie to that. For example the Allison 501-M78 had a propfan of 9 ft diameter. The GE36 ran to 12 ft. Russia's Progress D.7 achieves nearly 15 ft. By comparison the props on the WWII vintage Duplex Cyclones fitted to the B-29 were 4-bladed with a diameter of over 16.5 ft, and folks have gone even bigger since then. So no, propfans are being made smaller than conventional propellers, and there has to be a reason for that.
The reason is simple. Where would those larger diameters fit? You'd have to change a bunch of other configuration aspects e.g. high wing / overwing nacelle, less sweep etc. Which all have negatives to balance against specific fuel consumption.

That is a meaningless statement. You give no baseline for comparison. Some Russian turboprops give a great deal more thrust than most small gas turbines
Narrowbody e.g. A320, 2x30,000lbf ish. Convert to hp for cruise conditions and propellor efficiency and you're at about 40,000hp. So 2-3x NK-12s. Seems like a "lot more" to me.

meanwhile the earlier "propfans" did have shrouds, and according to Allison they contoured the shroud to slow the air and thus reduce compressibility effects. In other words, you can go faster if you shroud the prop/fan. So no, I don't think you are on the ball there either.
Eh, with a shroud means its a turbofan

Propellor / propfan / unducted fan are technically the same to me - its just semantics. The difference is really "disk loading" i.e. power input into a given area.
 
Somewhat related to the subject, for some reason I thought props turned at around 2000 rpm, I think I read something along those lines in the book 'The Big Show' where the author had written somethin about setting the Tempest's Napier and 14'-0" prop up for fast flying. But I've come across something that counters that in my copy of Air-Britain's Aviation World. An article I read was about the author re-qualifying his navigation ticket for working on CL-44's. He related that the Tynes compressor would be set to 13500 rpm, while the prop was set to 850 rpm for cruising. Which I thought was quite slow for a prop. But then I read that the 6-blade props on a Q400 turn at only 1200 rpm in cruise.
But now I remember reading about the 'geared turbofans' too, in cruise they're designed to gear down to turn more slowly.
So would the big diameter prop be better than a big fan where slower rpms are more achievable.
 
I'm pretty sure its related to the target flight envelope and hitting critical mach at the tips. See the hamilton standard variable camber prop for the other approach to this problem.
 
Where would those larger diameters fit?
The A400M evidences that neither blade length nor blade count is a significant factor in determining whether a blade is a "prop" or a "fan".

Eh, with a shroud means its a turbofan
That is not the normal understanding. There are several classes of ducted propulsor with long and respected histories. The turbofan is generally regarded as distinct from them, principally because the core jet turbine also delivers significant thrust.

Thanks to those who have been explaining the pros and cons of shrouds for fans. However my original question was, "What is the advantage of open-fan or propfan engines over regular propellers?" I'd be pleased to hear more about that, as well as how the difference is defined. The A400M is a case in point; its engine "looks like" an open-fan type but is officially classed as a turboprop. Why?
 
This is not exactly the question (the one sentence with a question mark) in your original post. (the one I answered to).

Propellers are there for a wide range of conditions. They are best to fit the all purpose requirements.
The propfan is there for fuel efficiency. It is best at high cruise speed while still offering respectable performances for the other regimes.

That's pretty much it.
 
Definitely some language semantics here between different propulsion systems - they're all actuator disks if you look at momentum theory

"Propfan" or "Unducted Fan" is to give improved propulsive efficiency over a Turbofan. It does this through better matching the "exhaust" speed with the free stream through having a larger bypass ratio than a turbofan.

* You could have a larger bypass ratio turbofan, but the duct mass and drag grows offsetting the potential gains. Hence Propfan or UDF to eliminate the duct. The individual blades then start to look different to ducted fan blades because they have a "tip" rather than "edge" and hence interaction with the free stream

** Conventional propellers offer greater propulsive efficiency but over a lower speed range. The higher disk loading from a Propfan or UDF helps here.
 
What has been done with the aerodynamics of fan housings-nacelles? No golf dimples or other tricks beyond keeping things smooth?
 
What has been done with the aerodynamics of fan housings-nacelles? No golf dimples or other tricks beyond keeping things smooth?
There's quite a difference in shape between the early nacelles and today. Need to optimise shape for a while range of factors hence you end up with aircraft-specific nacelles rather than engine-specific.

In general, smoothness / attached flow is the way to go for lowest drag subsonicly
 
What has been done with the aerodynamics of fan housings-nacelles? No golf dimples or other tricks beyond keeping things smooth?

The main changes have been consequences of increasing bypass ratios, from pure turbojet to high-bypass and eventually open-rotor fans.

First, the matter of length. In a pure jet, the front section is a compressor not a fan. Its high-pressure outflow really helps the efficiency of the combustion-turbine cycle. At low speeds it must draw air in, while at supersonic speeds it has to slow the air down. The pressure difference across the blades provides significant thrust.
The next development was the bypass turbofan, in which the outer part of the front blades does act as a fan to accelerate the air backwards and push air past the core jet. The fan action still provides thrust but, like a propeller, from acceleration rather than compression. This air is then typically mixed with the jet exhaust to increase the net mass flow of the exhaust at the expense of exhaust velocity, which further improves overall efficiency. This led to the widespread use of two- and eventually three-spool turbofans, with the outer spool essentially carrying a fan and the inner a compressor.
The high-bypass turbofan pushes back even more air, too much to mix with the exhaust. In this respect it acts somewhat as a cross between a turboprop and a turbojet, gaining much of the efficiency (and hence economy) of the turboprop; something like 70% of the thrust is now provided by the fan - the core jet still provides the other 30% or so. There is no longer any need to run the fan duct all the way back to the exhaust, and so the cowling got cut short part way along.

Internally, every surface needs to be as aerodynamically smooth and precise as possible. No boundary-layer gimmicks, other than a splitter plate to divert the boundary layer of a forward fuselage or similar away from the engine. However noise reduction has also become important, not only through environmental concerns but also because designers have learned to drive their fan tips at supersonic speeds. Key sections of the casing may be riddled with small holes to allow the acoustic pressure waves a way out into sound-absorbing stuffing; to tailor the acoustic bandwidth the holes must relate precisely to the gaps in the stuffing, yet must be kept small enough not to affect the boundary layer. The fan blades also need to fit as closely as possible to avoid aerodynamic losses, with minimal gap between them and the cowling. Rubbing strips were developed, so that the blades can be made fractionally oversize and wear down to the best fit possible.

The cowling inner fore-aft profile is critical in ensuring the correct flow of air, especially whether it is to be compressed and perhaps slowed for burning, or accelerated for direct thrust. It is also strongly affected by the outer profile of the shaft, which has a lot of jobs like strength, stiffness, lubrication and instrumentation to cover. The cross sectional area of the air duct is in turn directly related to the air speed, pressure and temperature. Together the shaft and air duct dictate the cowling profile. As technology advances, these parameters change and the cowling profiles evolve.

The cowling outer fore-aft profile can be varied locally. If the mounting pylon is short, the airflow between the wing and cowling becomes the design feature that the cowling must fit to. If the undercarriage legs are a bit short, then the bottom of the cowling may get flattened off a bit to keep it off the ground.

Of course, if the fan is open then the opportunity for various of these tricks is lost. You will have to accept higher tip losses and an airflow stream-tube profile that makes itself up as it goes along. You will also need to profile the blade tips for low noise because there is no absorbent wrapper any more, and abandon all thoughts of supersonic blade tips and maximised high-subsonic cruise speed. On the other hand removing the cowling reduces weight, while allowing longer blades and hence increased mass flow. These offer efficiency gains to compensate.
But how and why does this still differ from an advanced turboprop? What technical distinction makes the Europrop TP400 a turboprop and the Progress D.27 a propfan? That is what this thread is supposed to be about, but it is the one thing nobody here has been able to address.
 
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Propfan / Unducted Fan aim for higher propulsive efficiency than a turboprop or turbofan at the Mach numbers in between their optimums - generally M0.7-0.8 which is also where configuration aerodynamics ends up (Mach * Lift/Drag)

They do this through higher disk loading and lower thrust split (fan/propellor to core exhaust) compared to a turboprop, but there are no hard distinctions.
 
Could twin-fins to either side of an engine toe in or out to BE a cowl? Scramjet fuselages are an inlet of a sort...maybe that can be flipped somehow. I had a dream of a gimbling engine between two fuselage bits that curved around-they would expand away or pull together. I know...bad pizza...bad dreams...
 
Then there's bird-strike and FOD issues...

FWIW, I still gibber a bit each time I remember that cargo-handler serendipitously spotting passenger tossing coins into jet cowling. 'For Luck'.

Makes you wonder how many 'Cause Not Determined' engine failures just after take-off may be laid to such, especially those on 'steps-boarding' side...
 
Let's not forget that the core jet has in effect left only 30% of the total energy it provided to the system to turn the fan through shafting arrangement, for, afterwise, use it as a propulsive mean. ;)

Mathematically, the core jet provides 100% of the power!
 
Fed up with the lack of documentary support offered with any of the posts here, I went looking and found:

R-R presentation to the RAeS on the TP400-D6 turboprop:
https://www.fzt.haw-hamburg.de/pers/Scholz/dglr/hh/text_2006_09_19_RAeS_A400M.pdf

SBAC briefing paper on "Open Rotor Engines" from 2008:
https://cfd.spbstu.ru/agarbaruk/doc/Open-Rotor-Engine-Briefing-Paper.pdf

News blog post in similar vein:
Guy Norris; "Evolutionary Trail Of The Open-Fan Engine", Aviation Week website, 2021.
https://aviationweek.com/aerospace/evolutionary-trail-open-fan-engine

The general consensus is that they all represent a continuous chain of evolution, with much overlap in naming conventions.

The whole idea began with the advanced turboprop, which tended to be referred to as the propfan. However the term "propfan" was also being used for ducted propulsors of the is-it-a-prop-or-a-fan? variety. As modified turbofans such as the direct-driven GE36 appeared, they were variously called propfans, unducted fans or open fans. Eventually the term open rotor emerged as a catch-all, as it covers all bases; advanced turboprops, modified turbofans, and intermediate designs (whatever they are) between the two. It now seems to be the establishment's preferred term.

One can presumably say that if the turbine core produces negligible thrust then it is an open-rotor turboprop. But at what jet thrust levels or with what internal design features you start to say, "this is a transitional deign" or "this open rotor is a fully-fledged turbofan" remains a darkly shrouded pit of conflicting opinions.

Unless you can find another enlightening source?
 
So, what I've been saying in three posts now before you used Google yourself. If you're not interested in listening to answers then why ask a question?
Your posts?

I already answered that when I wrote; "Fed up with the lack of documentary support offered with any of the posts here".

Yes I listen carefully to answers. Recall that this thread is supposedly about the distinction between the turboprop and the open fan. Which two points are precisely why I note such specifics as:

"Basically comes down to how big a propellor you can fit." - unsupported irrelevance.​
"Then you get into optimisation for ... noise." - unsupported irrelevance.​
"The reason is simple. Where would those larger diameters fit?" - unsupported irrelevance.​
"The difference is really "disk loading" i.e. power input into a given area." - unsupported.​
"You could have a larger bypass ratio turbofan, but the duct mass and drag grows offsetting the potential gains. Hence Propfan or UDF to eliminate the duct." - please google the phrase "ducted propfan". It might surprise you.​
[crude graphic] - unsourced. Shows clear blue water between turboprop and propfan, which does not support the original advanced-turboprop propfans. Anybody could have drawn it, and probably did.​

yet you still have to ask?
 
Ah, so what you actually wanted was for the forum contributors to write a fully referenced article for you to publish?

Thats very different to your first question.

If you don't want to listen to advice from a qualified professional in the subject area thats fine. Don't bother asking anything in future.
 
Being in turbine engine design as a profession and a lover of aviation, I will contribute a few thoughts. I do not have any specific documentation to share, though you can go and google some of the things that I reference. For propeller design Borst is likely the best go to reference on the topic that is publically available.

The long story is that a 4 bladed propeller is not necessarily the ideal configuration for high power loads (or low powers for that matter). Also the term "better" is very subjective. There were many designs that converged in the sub 3,000hp class to 3 or 4 bladed designs, usually metal propellers. Analytical tools were hand based, as well as the materials that were available during the advanced propeller aircraft era were metallics. There are a couple of competing factors at play here. A few that come to mind are as follows:
-CF load of the blades at the hub
-Blade and Hub materials
-Propper tip speed
-Aero blade load (drives solidity ratio)
-Advance ratio
-Cost to produce
-Noise and sensitivity to noise
-Airframe/Engine/Propeller dynamic interactions
-Fatigue concerns

One thing that has been a common theme as of late is seeing an increase in the number of blades across the spectrum of horsepower. Composite materials have been a big enabler of this. The CF load that the hub needs to hold per blade has dropped significantly as well a significant increase in fatigue life both in the blades and the hub. This tends to come with some increased cost, both on the new make as well as the maintenance side at inspection time. Likely offset by reduced inspection intervals as well as fewer unplanned inspections. Composites also have allowed better tools to damp undesired effects of airframe/engine/propeller dynamics. It is easier to place stiffness and mass where you need it to better manage your crossings as well as have a material that generally has a better damping ratio. Gas turbines also allow for much lower power pulses coming into the blades reducing areas that can be challenging with piston engines.

As to terminology of turbojet, turboprop, turboshaft, turbofan, and unducted fan, well it gets muddy after turbojet. I would say that more than anything it has lots of overlap and now is more broadly categorized based upon intended application and its targeted cruise speed for things other than a turboshaft. There really is no hard and fast definition. Marketing likely has a lot to do as well in both coining of terms as well as some of the confusion. There is also the fact that this is not so old tech, and there were no names for it, so just like aluminum when it became more well known went through a handful of different names, which has resulted in yet a split of what to call it, the confusion caused by the very person that coined both terms, we still see some of this in the naming of turbine engines.

Just like many people will still state that fighter jet engines are examples of turbojet engines when they have not been new design pure turbojets for decades, they are low bypass turbofans and have been for a very long time. About the few applications of new turbojet designs tend to be in the model or attritable aircraft space. There are still a lot of J85 engines out there, but they were designed a long time ago.

Again, these are just my thoughts that can be googled to verify from someone who has designed everything from wind tunnel test models to world record breaking jet engines and has done a lot of aircraft restoration along the way. There are always exceptions, and groups that are optimizing around points that are different than others.
 
As to terminology of turbojet, turboprop, turboshaft, turbofan, and unducted fan, well it gets muddy after turbojet. I would say that more than anything it has lots of overlap and now is more broadly categorized based upon intended application and its targeted cruise speed for things other than a turboshaft. There really is no hard and fast definition. Marketing likely has a lot to do as well in both coining of terms as well as some of the confusion. There is also the fact that this is not so old tech, and there were no names for it, so just like aluminum when it became more well known went through a handful of different names, which has resulted in yet a split of what to call it, the confusion caused by the very person that coined both terms, we still see some of this in the naming of turbine engines.

Just like many people will still state that fighter jet engines are examples of turbojet engines when they have not been new design pure turbojets for decades, they are low bypass turbofans and have been for a very long time. About the few applications of new turbojet designs tend to be in the model or attritable aircraft space. There are still a lot of J85 engines out there, but they were designed a long time ago.

Thank you. I still find it odd that similar engines in production appear to be classified so differently for certification. Perhaps it is a matter of national standards bodies.

On the use of "turbojet", there is a need to distinguish these turbo-compressor jets from other kinds of jet engine such as pulsejets and ramjets. Bypass turbofans all have a turbo-compressor at their core, which contributes a measure of jet thrust. "Turbojet" them becomes a common catch-all for anything which has such a turbo-compressor + jet-thrust section powering it. It is not uncommon for the same technical term to have differing meanings in different contexts.
 
Folks, please, let me remind you to the very first point in the chapter about "General Conduct" in our forum rules:

"...Treat others as you would have them treat you."

And remember, that in written conversation, there's always the possibility, that parts of an argument, or the whole
argument were overlooked, or misunderstood. Few of us are aviation engineers, and even professionals can be wrong.
So, most posts probably contain opinion to a certain degree, and principally there should be no need to prove it. If so,
it's good, if not, it's ok to ask for sources, but principally it should be taken just as food for thought, I think.
No need to start a quarrel about it !
 
As to terminology of turbojet, turboprop, turboshaft, turbofan, and unducted fan, well it gets muddy after turbojet. I would say that more than anything it has lots of overlap and now is more broadly categorized based upon intended application and its targeted cruise speed for things other than a turboshaft. There really is no hard and fast definition. Marketing likely has a lot to do as well in both coining of terms as well as some of the confusion. There is also the fact that this is not so old tech, and there were no names for it, so just like aluminum when it became more well known went through a handful of different names, which has resulted in yet a split of what to call it, the confusion caused by the very person that coined both terms, we still see some of this in the naming of turbine engines.

Just like many people will still state that fighter jet engines are examples of turbojet engines when they have not been new design pure turbojets for decades, they are low bypass turbofans and have been for a very long time. About the few applications of new turbojet designs tend to be in the model or attritable aircraft space. There are still a lot of J85 engines out there, but they were designed a long time ago.

Thank you. I still find it odd that similar engines in production appear to be classified so differently for certification. Perhaps it is a matter of national standards bodies.

On the use of "turbojet", there is a need to distinguish these turbo-compressor jets from other kinds of jet engine such as pulsejets and ramjets. Bypass turbofans all have a turbo-compressor at their core, which contributes a measure of jet thrust. "Turbojet" them becomes a common catch-all for anything which has such a turbo-compressor + jet-thrust section powering it. It is not uncommon for the same technical term to have differing meanings in different contexts.
We do not generally call it a turbojet core, it is just called the core. Other companies may have different internal practices. Indeed this is likely the case. I know of multiple instances where one company calls things one way with other companies calling them different things. Many parts get names in the moment, and they often stick in one way or another. It is sort of fun to see that. It gets rather boring when the names get sanitized and do not carry their more informal names.
 
Were large props high atop wings less prone to bird strikes? Fan housings might suggest cave/knot-hole safety to fly towards at the last moment..like pets coldnose dark optics.
Large props mounted high are not less prone to bird strikes. They offer a larger diameter to be used for efficiency. You can’t go too high with the prop thrust line or you negate the efficiency boost due to excessive trim drag. Think flying boat.
Avoiding rocks etc kicked up by the nose and main gear as well as when in reverse thrust are the main fod advantages.
The high mounted prop does offer increased protection from snake, gopher and fish strikes.
 

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