Nuclear airliners?!

robunos

robunos

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just came across this on 'Times Online'....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article5024190.ece

cheers,
Robin.
 
Nuclear-powered aircraft ... will be transporting millions of passengers around the world later this century,
Click to expand...

Ah... no. Unless compact fusion powerplants come about, or some breakthrough occurs with so-far-discredited notions like cold fusion or hafnium isomers, there's basically no chance in hell that a nuclear airliner will fly.
 
helium 3 is the way to go.provided we find it on the moon and make a fusion reactor that can use it.
 
chornedsnorkack,

Kosmos satellites routinely do, by design.
Click to expand...

Are they nuclear powered?


avatar,

helium 3 is the way to go.provided we find it on the moon and make a fusion reactor that can use it.
Click to expand...

I thought helium 3 was a product during the solar fusion process?


KJ Lesnick
 
KJ_Lesnick said:
chornedsnorkack,

Kosmos satellites routinely do, by design.
Click to expand...

Are they nuclear powered?
Click to expand...
Yes.

The reactor fuel assembly is 53 kg, 60 cm long, 20 cm diametre, consisting of 37 cylindrical fuel elements with 31,1 kg (beginning of life) of 90 % U235 enrichments.


I thought helium 3 was a product during the solar fusion process?

[/quote]

It is. And it stays in the core of the Sun, eventually fusing in its turn.
 
latest on Fusionreactor for Aircraft engine

was the Polywell reactor from by Robert Bussard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polywell

test prototype build for US navy

research contract as future replace for fission reactors in Sub and Aircraftcarrier.
Bussard explane that the reactor build small enough to fit in cargoaircraft
 
chornedsnorkack said:
KJ_Lesnick said:
Plus if that thing crashes...
Click to expand...

Kosmos satellites routinely do, by design.
Click to expand...

RORSAT (Radar Ocean Recon SAT) had routinely done it, by design ("COSMOS" was a U.S.-applied designation to anything put into Low Earth Orbit by the Soviets that wasn't otherwise identifiable - though these included the entire RORSAT range they also included a number of anonymous but civilian satellites as well as a number of interplanetary probes and other equipment that failed to escape LEO as well as test equipment, including a test of the intended Soviet LEM).

The RORSAT program was an earlier Cold War program now defunct, with most of the mini-reactors being ejected into a stable high orbit; however, at least two RORSAT sats have returned to Earth with their reactors, including one that crashed into the Sea of Japan after a failed launch and another that failed to achieve LEO and burned up over northern Canada, leaving an extensive radioactive debris field. A third RORSAT nearly failed to eject its reactor when spent, but a backup system managed to launch the reactor into a lower than intended, but evidently still stable high orbit.

If anything, this only highlights the concern, though RTGs (Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generators) are fairly common for interplanetary probes and possibly some satellites. Rather than a full-blown nuclear reactor, these devices merely convert the natural radioactive emissions of radioisotopes such as Pu-238 or Sr-90 into electrical power. Though these devices do not generate significant electrical output, they have the advantage of having a long "battery life," especially if a radioisotope with a very long half-life is used (hence why Pu-238 and Sr-90 are the most popular RTG fuel sources).

Besides, even a modern "compact" nuclear reactor is going to be huge. The only payload the NB-36 was able to carry was the reactor itself. Never mind the 6 tons of lead shielding it carried just behind the crew compartment, protecting only the crew (the amount of shielding needed for a passenger plane would make said plane more suitable as a submarine)
 
Chornedsnorkack,

From what I remember, in the sun the reaction occurs basically involving two hydrogen nuclei which collide, one becomes a neutron and shoots off a positron and neutrino, in which the positron is often annihilated by an electron. Another proton hits the deuteron (proton neutron pair -- a deuterium nucleus) and produces helium 3 and produces a gamma burst which actually produces the energy for the fusion reaction. Another He3 often collides with the mix which produces regular old Helium4, and two protons.

You are correct though that once the sun exhausts all it's hydrogen it will fall inward until the pressure reaches such a point that the helium fuses into heavier elements which results in the star expanding considerably and becoming a red-giant...


Michael Van,
latest on Fusionreactor for Aircraft engine

was the Polywell reactor from by Robert Bussard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polywell

test prototype build for US navy

research contract as future replace for fission reactors in Sub and Aircraftcarrier.
Bussard explane that the reactor build small enough to fit in cargoaircraft
Click to expand...

Is this fusion reactor stable?

Is it configured in such a way that it cannot produce a nuclear explosion (ie is it possible for it's normal power levels to spike high enough to cause something like that to happen)?


Just call me Ray,

That sounds about right...


KJ Lesnick
 
Just call me Ray said:
chornedsnorkack said:
KJ_Lesnick said:
Plus if that thing crashes...
Click to expand...

Kosmos satellites routinely do, by design.
Click to expand...

If anything, this only highlights the concern, though RTGs (Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generators) are fairly common for interplanetary probes and possibly some satellites. Rather than a full-blown nuclear reactor, these devices merely convert the natural radioactive emissions of radioisotopes such as Pu-238 or Sr-90 into electrical power. Though these devices do not generate significant electrical output, they have the advantage of having a long "battery life," especially if a radioisotope with a very long half-life is used (hence why Pu-238 and Sr-90 are the most popular RTG fuel sources).
Click to expand...
RTG is useless unless the radioisotope has a short half-life. And Pu-238 is nasty stuff. Half-life under 90 years makes it a powerful alpha-ray source - far more dangerous than Pu-239 (half-life 24 000 years) let alone highly enriched U-235 (over 700 millions of years). You cannot scram a RTG! It keeps radiating at the same intensity when the heat is no longer needed, when the isotopes have been scattered to four winds and incorporated in human tissues. Whereas a neutron chain reaction nuclear reactor stops chain reacting when the critical conditions are disrupted and when the contents are scattered, their total activity is very low because of the huge lifetime of U-235...
Just call me Ray said:
Besides, even a modern "compact" nuclear reactor is going to be huge. The only payload the NB-36 was able to carry was the reactor itself.
Click to expand...
A RORSAT reactor without shielding weights 130 kg. Not too much to carry on a small general aviation piston plane (when not running, of course!)
Just call me Ray said:
Never mind the 6 tons of lead shielding it carried just behind the crew compartment, protecting only the crew (the amount of shielding needed for a passenger plane would make said plane more suitable as a submarine)
Click to expand...

Note that the MTOW of a NB-36 was just 162 t. Airbus 380 or An-225 could carry much bigger payloads.
 
I thought helium 3 was a product during the solar fusion process?
Click to expand...

and it is precisely solar winds over eons that have led to the deposition of helium 3 in moon regolith.

it is one the primary reasons for renewed interest in lunar exploration.

here's a pdf on lunar deposits

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2007/pdf/2175.pdf
 
KJ Lesnick: Is this fusion reactor stable?
Click to expand...

after Bussard claime yes
see the Wiki link for more info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polywell
bussard him self on Polywell
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1996321846673788606
 
since we are talking about Bussard might as well give our friends at american antigravity a look in


http://www.americanantigravity.com/articles/682/1/Dr-Robert-Bussards-Fusion-Breakthrough/Page1.html
 
RTGs have a very poor output is to weight ratio if you like and a MW class RTG will be massive.

On the other hand small nuclear fission reactors are a pain as well on account of greater neutron loss and the high fuel enrichment levels that are required.

Fusion if and when possible is the way to go.
 
avatar said:
On the other hand small nuclear fission reactors are a pain as well on account of greater neutron loss and the high fuel enrichment levels that are required. Fusion if and when possible is the way to go.
Click to expand...
Fusion pretty much always produces neutrons, even with the trumped up He3. The "easiest" form of fusion, deuterium-tritium, produces some nice neutrons at 14 MeV.
 
A couple of recent developments:

http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=19227

http://www.dvice.com/2013-2-22/lockheeds-skunk-works-promises-fusion-power-four-years

(Note: there are some typos in the Dvice article.)
 
Hi! Don´t know, if this nuclear powered jet airliner was a real project or fictional. But hazegrayart does mostly renders/videos on real projects (I think).

Mach 6 Nuclear Powered 600 Seat Jetliner​

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="
View: https://www.youtube.com/embed/zx1iluQsJdE
" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
GARGEAN said:
Hear me out: transatlantic nuclear ekranoplans.
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Good point!
Nuclear-powered airplanes will first be profitable on long trans-oceanic, non-stop flights (e.g. 16 hours to Sydney, Australia). They will probably need a few years of cargo-hauling before the general public will be willing to ride as passengers.
I envision large, nuclear-powered cargo carriers that depend upon automated loading and un-loading equipment. This also requires automated, quick-disconnect reactors for scheduled maintenance.
Try to picture a nuclear-powered cargo-carrier hauling a heavy load from Sydney to LAX. It lands at LAX and is unloaded automatically, then flies itself to Mojave (sparsely-populated high desert) for maintenance. The reactor is quickly dropped at the East end of Mojave airport, then the empty airframe is towed to the West end for an inspection, brake-change, etc. Meanwhile the reactor core is automatically shuffled to a heavily-shielded bunker (ala. military ammo dump).
I envision a rear-mounted reactor and engines (ala. Boeing 727, Douglas DC-9, etc.) to keep the reactor as far as possible from the human crew. The reactor core could be quickly dumped out the rear end with a minimum of human effort.
 
riggerrob said:
I envision large, nuclear-powered cargo carriers that depend upon automated loading and un-loading equipment. This also requires automated, quick-disconnect reactors for scheduled maintenance.
Click to expand...

I guess this can make STAR power module revisit worthwile. The STAR is basically a liquid metal reactor with integrated steam generator which come as a solid block of package. It's designed for country which want nuclear power plant but cannot make investment in reprocessing infrastructure.

Liquid metal like lead or lead bismuth have advantages of not requiring any pressurization and core can be much smaller.

I wonder tho if gas cooled STAR power module feasible as it might actually support higher temperature which one can use for a nuclear jet engine.
 
GARGEAN said:
Hear me out: transatlantic nuclear ekranoplans.
Click to expand...
Actually, ekranoplans are about the only config that would assuage people's fears about a crash.
Fly low and require they alight into the ocean xx miles before reaching shore, then putter on to the ramp...

But maybe transpacific rather than transatlantic: the longer the route the more nuke makes sense.
 
dan_inbox said:
But maybe transpacific rather than transatlantic: the longer the route the more nuke makes sense.
Click to expand...

Politics is the biggest driver of any hypothetical nuclear aircraft. Not just the politics of nuclear powerplants, but politics of regional conflict. it is not unreasonable to assume that current events could mean that the future is one of whole regions on fire and becoming no-go zones; you'd have to fly around them. A current great circle route from most of Europe to Australia/New Zealand would fly over Russia and the Middle East; it's easy to see how that could become problematic. If Africa becomes similarly troublesome to overfly, then the route gets *really* long... fly south along the length of the Atlantic, hang a left before you get to Antarctica. A normal jetliner would be SOL if it tried to fly this route, but a nuclear WIG could pull it off easily.
 
riggerrob said:
GARGEAN said:
Hear me out: transatlantic nuclear ekranoplans.
Click to expand...
Good point!
Nuclear-powered airplanes will first be profitable on long trans-oceanic, non-stop flights (e.g. 16 hours to Sydney, Australia). They will probably need a few years of cargo-hauling before the general public will be willing to ride as passengers.
I envision large, nuclear-powered cargo carriers that depend upon automated loading and un-loading equipment. This also requires automated, quick-disconnect reactors for scheduled maintenance.
Try to picture a nuclear-powered cargo-carrier hauling a heavy load from Sydney to LAX. It lands at LAX and is unloaded automatically, then flies itself to Mojave (sparsely-populated high desert) for maintenance. The reactor is quickly dropped at the East end of Mojave airport, then the empty airframe is towed to the West end for an inspection, brake-change, etc. Meanwhile the reactor core is automatically shuffled to a heavily-shielded bunker (ala. military ammo dump).
I envision a rear-mounted reactor and engines (ala. Boeing 727, Douglas DC-9, etc.) to keep the reactor as far as possible from the human crew. The reactor core could be quickly dumped out the rear end with a minimum of human effort.
Click to expand...

Convair CAMAL was the closest thing from such vehicle.

But indirect cycle, please. And MSR, after all Alvin Weinberg and his teams at Oak Ridge developed Molten Salt Reactors for such job.
 

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