NPOMash 3M22 Zircon / Tsirkon (SS-N-33)

Forest Green said:
Why would they underplay the speed, it'd be to their advantage to exaggerate the speed if anything in order to exaggerate what they're faced with to get more help.
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I would bet on the information being largely accurate but I would never absolutely assume that is the case.
 
About 6500-8000 km/h is what i caught from AMK's reporting, don't know where he gets his data from but he's by far the best when it comes to missile strikes in Ukraine.
Interesting to note that out of ~2 dozen fired in the last few weeks, none have been intercepted, despite most of them going to Kiev, which has been holding up quite well against Iskander-M's during that same timespan.
Wondering whether it's just pure speed or if it has some impressive maneuvering capabilities.
 
Scaevola said:
I made an account just to comment on this subject, not a ballistic missile expert by any means but it isn't very likely that a ground launched ballistic missile of it's size would have the range it does, especially if it doesn't follow a purely ballistic trajectory.

OTOH, it's relatively low cost and frequent usage (several are launched in every major strike package, with up to 8 used in a night) does imply a simpler (ie pure rocket) means of propulsion, as does it's relatively quick (by Russian standards at least) development cycle.

So i'm wondering, could a sort of booster/sustainer set up provide it with similar performance to a scramjet design, but with significantly lower costs and complexity?
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AFAIK, with updated info, zircon is a 3 stage rocket, 2 internal stages and 1 detachable booster stage.

Think of A2A missiles, how they have coast/glide phases, multiple pulses, solid rocket motors.


images (1).jpeg images (2).jpeg images (3).jpeg
SM6, in land attack mode.

Zircon doesn't fly exactly same as them, and unsure if it does steep vertical dive(with pull up maneuvere?)in terminal or more of an antiship style shallow dive even in land attack mode.

Divides the trajectory into small sections, for small predetermined course changes.


But you can get the vague idea.

(Also, supersonic cruise missiles like P-800/ barhmos, generate enough lift mostly from their cylindrical body to stay in level flight at mach 2-2.5( its ramjet doesn't generate lift, it provides thrust) now compare this to hypersonic mach 5-6 reported speeds of zircon in midcourse.)
 
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paralay said:
What speed did Ukrainians measure in the first application of Zircon in Kiev?
11600 km/h if I'm not mistaken
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Source?
Scaevola said:
About 6500-8000 km/h is what i caught from AMK's reporting, don't know where he gets his data from but he's by far the best when it comes to missile strikes in Ukraine.
Interesting to note that out of ~2 dozen fired in the last few weeks, none have been intercepted, despite most of them going to Kiev, which has been holding up quite well against Iskander-M's during that same timespan.
Wondering whether it's just pure speed or if it has some impressive maneuvering capabilities.
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Forest Green said:
Source?

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At what phase of flight were these values observed?.
Start of Terminal, just before impact, and cruise( later part of cruise/midcouse phase?)

AFAIK.

The mach9 top speed claim. if true, is most likely attenable during early-mid phase of midcourse flight at the end/near burn out phase of first internal pulse/stage. After which it coasts unpowered( altitude loss should be 7-10km, distance 300+km, final speed mach~5)till 2nd pulse/stage kicks in.

& from the article.
I ASSUME.
2nd pulse/stage helps it accelerate to ~mach7.5 before burnout, just before terminal phase & it slows down to Mach 4-4.5 before impact.
 
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From examining the wreckage they're saying it's a scramjet. The article actually gives speeds for cruise, terminal and impact - M5.5, M7.5 and M4.5 respectively.
 
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Forest Green said:
From examining the wreckage they're saying it's a scramjet
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Yeah, I still disagree.
But, do you have the link to the analysis of its wreckage?



Forest Green said:
The article actually gives speeds for cruise, terminal and impact - M5.5, M7.5 and M4.5 respectively.
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I got thank, but the cruise part, when do they start tracking it in cruise? Later phases of its cruise?
 
mokahete said:
Yeah, I still disagree.
But, do you have the link to the analysis of its wreckage?
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Stands to reason that they've been examing wreckage. They do that with every Russian weapon to the extent of a complete parts breakdown and no doubt Russia do the same with Ukrainian weapons. Here's one article indicating such analysis exists.
www.pravda.com.ua

Media shows wreckage of Russian Zircon missile shot down over Kyiv – photo

On 25 March, Russia targeted Kyiv with two of its newest 3M22 Zircon missiles.
www.pravda.com.ua www.pravda.com.ua

Another with video:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3rxPJbA81Q

mokahete said:
I got thank, but the cruise part, when do they start tracking it in cruise? Later phases of its cruise?
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When it's in radar range I assume.
 
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Forest Green said:
Stands to reason that they've been examing wreckage. They do that with every Russian weapon to the extent of a complete parts breakdown and no doubt Russia do the same with Ukrainian weapons. Here's one article indicating such analysis exists.
www.pravda.com.ua

Media shows wreckage of Russian Zircon missile shot down over Kyiv – photo

On 25 March, Russia targeted Kyiv with two of its newest 3M22 Zircon missiles.
www.pravda.com.ua www.pravda.com.ua

When it's in radar range I assume.
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So later part of cruise.

Also, in the analysis nothing about the scramjet, expect the drawing by Ukrainians.

Which is based on this older rendering from paralay forum
22-10911.jpg


Grainy image of supposedly zircon.
Bez-tytu-u.png

Though i guess we need to see HD close up of its nose without fairing, to definitely conclude.

Until then, its all my *trust me bro* source.
 
Forest Green said:
Source?
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March 25, 2024
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2 Zircons in Kiev. The missiles covered a distance of 580 km from Crimea to Kiev in 3 minutes, which makes it possible to estimate the speed of the missiles as 11,600 km/ h, according to Ukrainian monitoring publications. Arrival at one of the headquarters.And more. "We confirm the defeat of two Patriot air defense systems in Zhuliany," TASS reported, citing its sources in the Russian Defense Ministry. The strike was carried out today at about 11.30 a.m., previously with Zircon missiles from Crimea.The report also says that foreign military experts were part of the calculations of the complexes.э
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VK.com | VK

vk.com vk.com
 

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paralay said:
The Zircon has two stages, and this is clearly visible in the most recent launch photos. The second stage is shown in a simplified form in the presentations of the Ministry of Defense.
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Assuming my rocket propelled theory.

1. You can't determine how many internal solid rocket stages/pulses the missile has from looking at the external photos.

Zircon's launch pic shows a small detachable booster(1st stage) and then the main missile( can't see how many internal stages/pulses it has, my claim is 2).



2. Yeah, the presentation by russian MOD doesn't match the Zircon in launch pic, its not simplified its basically a different missile with the duck beak at the front, the movable fins at the back are also different, in the presentation,the transition to duck beak starts way before the fairing covering, the transition we don't see in actual launch pic.

Even in this grainy pic, you can still see its cylindrical shape ending in a pointed tip at the end.
Bez-tytu-u.png
 
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Can an unaugmented solid rocket that size fly that kind of cruise profile with standard solid fuels?
 
Luminal-A fuel, it's not a secret

Люминал-А: история освоения нового топлива | Ракетная техника

С самого начала развития ракет дальнего действия появилась потребность в применении топлив, продукты сгорания которых обладали бы значительными скоростями истечения. На первых порах в баллистических
missilery.info missilery.info
 
mokahete said:
I got the Info from *supposedly* a junior engineer in Russia's UAC in Discord.
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Sooooooo... some guy in the web said something? And that's all?

And if some guy *supposedly* a junior engineer in Northrop would tell you that B-2 bombers are actually flying on anti-gravity engines, salvaged from crashed flying sauser you would believe that too?
 
Dilandu said:
Sooooooo... some guy in the web said something? And that's all?

And if some guy *supposedly* a junior engineer in Northrop would tell you that B-2 bombers are actually flying on anti-gravity engines, salvaged from crashed flying sauser you would believe that too?
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Dilandu said:
And that's all?
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No, i have written & shared more than enough in this thread about that.

Though, I don't mind if some guys in the web wanna remain willfully ignorant.

Continue with your scramjets.
 
Dilandu said:
So you are supporting one speculation with the other speculation?
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No, but disregarding you're claim that asserts with false CERTAINTY that they have nothing to do with each other.
Dilandu said:
that have zero relation to Zircon.
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Dilandu said:
Maybe; so what? How exactly this "proof" anything
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It proves that its possible for solid rocket fuel powered missile to mimic cruise missile like trajectory & has been done before also answers the question he was asking.

& neither is there certain proof of zircon being scramjet powered.
Looking at whatever available pictures we have, pushes the possibility of it being scramjet even lower, regardless of how hard it is for you to digest.
 
mokahete said:
No, but disregarding you're claim that asserts with false CERTAINTY that they have nothing to do with each other.
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I.e. you are supporting the claim that Zirkon is solid-fuel missile by claiming that some Indian missile might have some relation to Zirkon. Speculation supporting speculation.

mokahete said:
with false CERTAINTY that they have nothing to do with each other.
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My dear, dear Mokahete, is YOUR duty to prove that they are related) Not my to disprove it) Currently you didn't prove anything, just speculate widely about "it might be so".

mokahete said:
It proves that its possible for solid rocket fuel powered missile to mimic cruise missile like trajectory & has been done before also answers the question he was asking.
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Possible, okay. Why exactly do we need this complicated theory instead of simpler and more reliable theory that Zircon is ramjet-powered? :)
 
Dilandu said:
Why exactly do we need this complicated theory instead of simpler and more reliable theory that Zircon is ramjet-powered? :)
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Because
mokahete said:
& neither is there certain proof of zircon being scramjet powered.
Looking at whatever available pictures we have, pushes the possibility of it being scramjet even lower, regardless of how hard it is for you to digest.
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&

Ramjet is not less complicated, actually even more.
 
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mokahete said:
Ramjet is not less any less complicated, actually even more.
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And you assume that Ukrainean engineers would not be able to determine which type of engine missile use by its fragments? Your theory simply did not hold water. The ramjet fuel and solid rocket fuel would left a completely different residue in missile engine - and Ukraineans specifically stated that they collected elements of engine. They made no claims about any kind of solid rocket fuel traces found amongst engine fragment - which, if presented, would be rather puzzling and immediately attract their attention.

So your theory is simply wrong, and please stop pushing it.
 
Dilandu said:
And you assume that Ukrainean engineers would not be able to determine which type of engine missile use by its fragments?
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Noting that they have used amateur drawing from Balancer's forum as guide to reconstruction and haven't shown any forward section remains I can assume anything.
 
flateric said:
Noting that they have used amateur drawing from Balancer's forum as guide to reconstruction and haven't shown any forward section remains I can assume anything.
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I doubt it was the engineers who used amateur drawing; it was most likely done by propagandists for public presentation only (recall the case when they cruidely wielded vacuum tube from old TV to the microchip board found in Iskander wreckage?). Ukrainean missile engineers are good. Assuming that they would not be able to notice which kind of fuel missile used is just plainly absurd. Could you please don't add another layer of baseless speculations to support the @mokahete 's already overcomplicated and contradictory theory?
 
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Can you please stop talking me what to do?
We can return back to subject after more details on Zircon will appear in nearest future.
 
No, he can't. Anyway, it's just a link to paywalled AWIN debrief.
 
t.me

Головне управління розвідки МО України

⚡️Знищено пускову установку гіперзвукових ракет “циркон” у Криму – ексклюзивне відео від воєнної розвідки У ніч на 24 березня майстри Департаменту безпілотних систем ГУР МО України вистежили у Криму колону пускових установок “бастіон-м”, яка рухалась до позицій. Внаслідок влучних ударів...
t.me t.me
A Zircon hypersonic missile launcher was destroyed in Crimea - exclusive video from military intelligence.

On the night of March 24, the masters of the Department of Unmanned Systems of the GUR of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine tracked down a column of Bastion-M launchers in Crimea, which was moving towards positions.

As a result of the reconnaissance strikes, one of the launchers and two expensive “Zircon” missiles were destroyed, another “Bastion” was damaged.

Seven occupiers were killed and wounded.
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hmm would like video proof especially since its such a important target but if true its quite costly for russia. These are not in high stock, the loss of missiles is fine and frankly not that bad but the loss of personnel and especially launchers is bad for russia. Good ISR by ukraine.
 
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