Northrop / McDonnell Douglas ATF - YF-23 and EMD F-23

lantinian said:
What I remember reading is that because of the closely coupled engines of the F-22, heat build up between the engines during supercruise could not be attenuated effectively and the aircraft operationally had to be limited to about 30 min of supercruise. I can't remember if the heat build up was a safety issues or a stealth one.

The area you are thinking of is the "stinger" between the engine exhausts. This area experiences the greatest heating of anywhere on the aircraft. During the flight test program some flights were limited to 500 kts because of heating concerns specifically in this area. This restriction was temporary, and the heating issues in the stinger were resolved. This had nothing to do with super cruise or a limit of 30 minutes, and was purely precautionary. This issue was resolved before the F-22 was operational.

As far as I know F-22s are not limited to 30 minutes or 100 miles of super cruise .
 
Hi all,

I was looking at the cockpit drawing of the F-23A. There're three sources: the F-23 inboard profile CAD, the NATF F-23 inboard profile CAD and a picture of the F-23A cockpit in simulator that you can find on yf-23.net

The general layout is quite clear, 3 primary screens in the middle, a touche screen UFC and two small screens on sides of her. The general arrangement is central stick. However in the F-23 inboard profile drawing, the part in the red square is quite unclear to me. I though it was the throttle, but the placement is not standard (it sticks out of the left console) and what i've taken for the left and right thrust grip are in the reverse size compared to standard grips (that is, in the drawing the right grip seems the bigger one, which is the opposite in actual planes). So i'm left with the impression that it is not the throttle that is depicted here. any idea?

 
btw, http://archive.aviationweek.com/issue/19901217/#!&pid=46
 

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The reason is that the cross-section views on the YF-23 drawing are from the front, as can be seen from the other cross sections. This means you need to flip it.
 

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PaulMM (Overscan) said:
The reason is that the cross-section views on the YF-23 drawing are from the front, as can be seen from the other cross sections. This means you need to flip it.

The inboard profile section view are actually looking forward (it is noted in the down right corner) so it is as if the pilot sat in the cockpit. the other views are indeed looking backward.
 
Hi all,

I always thought Northrop's YF-23 was quite a fascinating aircraft with some rather unusual characteristics not seen in many production aircraft. Certainly the ruddervators (a term we also used on our DBF aircraft this year) and the overall slenderness gave the aircraft a very slick appearance. It's interesting to note that the aircraft's fuselage "barrel" and engine nacelles appear to taper off and "waists", so to speak, close to the longitudinal position of the wingtips, probably to minimize maximum cross-sectional area. It doesn't appear that its competitor, the YF-22, or many other aircraft for that matter, takes such an aggressive approach towards area ruling. It does make me wonder what its supersonic parasitic drag will look like and how it compares to other aircraft; Mr. Dan Raymer's aircraft design book has a chart of the Cd0 versus Mach number of various contemporary and vintage US fighters, as well as the hypothetical Rockwell ATF proposal, which put much more focus on supercruise before the Air Force amped up the stealth requirements.

(Side note: Mr. Raymer gave a talk about aircraft design process here at UCLA last year, and I took the opportunity to ask about his involvement and opinion of the ATF program that led to the F-22. Apparently, the heavily area-ruled design by Rockwell reflected what the contractors expected the Air Force was pursuing. In Mr. Raymer's opinion, the much more stringent stealth requirements that were added screwed just about every contractor other than Lockheed and Northrop since these two companies were the only ones with much experience, and realistically can't be matched by other companies.)

I took the opportunity to purchase Scott Lowther's Aerospace Projects Review to get a closer look at the proposed production F-23A (a great purchase, as it includes some detailed DWGs of the YF-23, F-23A, and the NATF version as well). It's interesting to see expected similarities and some notable differences. The inlet change is rather interesting, since it doesn't appear to have a visible boundary layer diverter system such as a splitter plate gap. Perhaps the half-cone acts in a manner similar to the DSI hump of the F-35? That said, it's also possible that the inlet incorporates some kind of porous bleed system similar to the grid on the F-22 that isn't depicted here. It would also be interesting to see the shock structure generated by the intake and how the serrated cowl plays into that.

It's also interesting to see the F-23A's longitudinal cross-section distribution. Perhaps I haven't seen such plots of other fighters, but it seems remarkable how well and smooth the aircraft's distribution conforms to the ideal Mach 1.5 body (the Mach 1.0 distribution is lumpier, but the aircraft probably isn't optimized for this speed). In any case, it seems like the aircraft would have quite a favorable empirical wave drag efficiency at this design speed. Does a similar plot exist for the YF-23? I also had a quick look at the fuselage cross sections of both the F-23 and YF-23. The nacelles have been rounded off, but it appears that the volume and cross section near the wingtips have expanded (the trench between the nacelles don't seem as deep, nacelles rounds off more gradually to the wings). Those sections have grayed out areas for fuel tank, so maybe this was to increase fuel volume? It would be interesting to see what effect this has on surface area and Amax (and thus fineness ratio Amax/l) compared to the F-23. The production aircraft is also about 3 feet longer, and chines aren't nearly as pronounced. Maybe with the YF-23 fuselage cross sections, perhaps someone with CAD or some kind of pixel-counting software can generate a rough longitudinal cross section distribution? It would be an interesting comparison, though I'd imagine that doing all the Mach-plane cross section cuts would be a pain!

Just my $0.02. I just discovered this thread and haven't read through it all, and I may have restated what many already know! In any case, very radical and beautiful aircraft, something I wish I could see fly. Unfortunately the ATF technology demonstrators flew before I was born, but one can imagine I suppose.
 
Steven said:
I just discovered this thread and haven't read through it all, and I may have restated what many already know! In any case, very radical and beautiful aircraft, something I wish I could see fly. Unfortunately the ATF technology demonstrators flew before I was born, but one can imagine I suppose.

FWIW there are several Youtube vids of it, as well as a DVD or so out there.
 
sferrin said:
Steven said:
I just discovered this thread and haven't read through it all, and I may have restated what many already know! In any case, very radical and beautiful aircraft, something I wish I could see fly. Unfortunately the ATF technology demonstrators flew before I was born, but one can imagine I suppose.

FWIW there are several Youtube vids of it, as well as a DVD or so out there.

Of course, and I've viewed quite a few of them. But video offers a narrow FOV that can't quite capture the full glory of flight. In any case, since one of the PAVs is just down in Hawthorne I may drop by with a few friends to check it out.
 
sferrin said:
Interesting. I'd always heard that the F120 powered YF-23 was the faster of the two but apparently that is not the case. (PAV-1 was the F119 powered aircraft.)

"A chart shown with test results - number of flights, max speed (demonstrated) PAV-1 M=1.8 PAV-2 M=1.7, max angle of attack and max altitude about 50K feet. "


"The GE powered aircraft were slower than the Pratt planes and the YF-23 PAV-1 was faster than the YF-22 aircraft. The Air Force chose the slowest plane with the slowest engine! "

???

supacruze said:
Guys, PAV-2 with the GE engines was not slower. That powerpoint presentation was sanitised. The top speed of PAV-2 and indeed PAV-1 is classified. They just put some generic figures in for that presentation. You have to understand that those people are living and working in a highly political environment and they are not going to say what they really think, you have to read between the lines. Its not a case of freedom of speech, these guys are muzzled. You have to do really thorough detective work to find what really happened. If you look up Edo and their involvement in the F-22 programme, you will get a clue. Another clue is the Air Force ATF evaluation committee was directly ordered not to make a recommendation, they were only allowed to give "stoplight colours" on various aspects of the performance criteria. I have been referred to a source on the net that claims that Donald Rice has since tacitly admitted that Northrop's design was better. My intuition is that he was bribed to choose Lockheed, but not necessarily by Lockheed. No matter how much you think you live in a free democracy, no one one is going to whistle-blow on this programme because they dont want to jeodardise their careers. Read between the lines.


I have updated my Lockheed page with new images...


http://yf-23.net/Lockheed.html

To follow up on the confusion, they're talking about max tested speed and not absolute max speed. From the data presented, PAV-1 was tested to a higher top speed of Mach 1.8 in afterburner and Mach 1.43 in supercruise, while PAV-2 demonstrated faster supercruise speed of Mach 1.72 but didn't test any higher even though it was capable of it. YF-23 attaining over Mach 1.7 would certainly be noticeably better than the YF-22, which only reached Mach 1.58 with the GE engine.

On another note, did the YF-23 employ its ruddervators for rolling? If so, how would they deal with the potential adverse roll-yaw coupling? Aerobraking one wing via ppposing aileron/flaperon deflection to counter the yaw? I wonder if that would have enough yaw control power to counteract that of the massive tail surface.
 
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Steven said:
Did the YF-23 employ its ruddervators for rolling? If so, how would they deal with the potential adverse roll-yaw coupling? Aerobraking one wing via ppposing aileron/flaperon deflection to counter the yaw? I wonder if that would have enough yaw control power to counteract that of the massive tail surface.

The FCS on the YF-23 doesn't work as on older aircraft where moving the stick one way moves this set of controls and moving it another way moves another set; All of the flight controls work together to optimize the required response. Also, of course they had enough control power, because it "worked." As an aside, they shouldn't get that much adverse yaw from the tails in roll, since they aren't the main lifting surface. As for roll coupling, I'm not sure that is as big a problem for a CCV vehicle since the control responses can change throughout the maneuver. Meaning that initially the tails may provide most of the roll input with some help from the ailerons, but then the ailerons may create more of the sustained rolling load than the tails as they approach the steady state roll rate. I'm not saying that is what happens, I'm just saying that modern FCS are much complex than the old mechanical systems, even though some of those had a limited ability to mix control responses.
 
F-23 ATF stickers - Steve Billing collection via Ron Downey / aviationarchives.blogspot.com
 

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Ron Downey said:
Northrop/McAir YF-23A Flight Manual
YF-23A NTM 1F-23(Y)A-1_01 A copy of the Northrop/McAir YF-23A preliminary Flight Manual, NTM-1F-23(Y)A-1, dated June 1,1990. This is the company written manual for the YF-23 in the YF-22 vs Yf-23 competition.
Click here to download the manual in PDF form (246.7 Megs):
Source:
 
Please merge the following link with this topic.
Link: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7259.msg282051.html#msg282051
 
Thanks Moonbat!! Also, great website for historical manufacturers brochures!
 
Ian33 said:
Worst mistake the USF ever made.

Most beautiful aircraft ever to grace the skies.

Can you just imagine the online outrage when it was discovered the YF-23 couldn't do a back flip like the Flanker? Would make the F-35 kerfuffle look like a Sunday picnic. ;) (That FB-23 would almost be perfect for what they're looking for in the Pacific though.)
 
Ian33 said:
Worst mistake the USF ever made.

Most beautiful aircraft ever to grace the skies.
And then imagine 400+ of them in perfect world........... :'( talk about a conventional deterrent.
 
I think that the FB-23 is the really big missing aircraft.

It would have given many major benefits to the USAF:
- Above all, long range moderate volume stealthy strike. More economical than a B-2 and more survivable than a B-1. Perfect for areas where strategic strike is needed all the time, but local airfields are at risk (China, Koreas, Europe)
- Long range strike takes away heat from JSF program, possibly allowing F-35 to trade away some range for better weight.
- 2 man crew to make UAV control much more achievable in near term.
- Large airframe has enough internal space to power EW systems, an EF-111 for the future.

In a sense, the FB-111 would give the USAF a bunch more time on F-35 program, PCA, EW refresh, etc. The benefits of a big stealthy strike fighter.
 
DrRansom said:
I think that the FB-23 is the really big missing aircraft.

It would have given many major benefits to the USAF:
- Above all, long range moderate volume stealthy strike. More economical than a B-2 and more survivable than a B-1. Perfect for areas where strategic strike is needed all the time, but local airfields are at risk (China, Koreas, Europe)
- Long range strike takes away heat from JSF program, possibly allowing F-35 to trade away some range for better weight.
- 2 man crew to make UAV control much more achievable in near term.
- Large airframe has enough internal space to power EW systems, an EF-111 for the future.

In a sense, the FB-111 would give the USAF a bunch more time on F-35 program, PCA, EW refresh, etc. The benefits of a big stealthy strike fighter.

In that regard, the really big missing aircraft is the A-12 Avenger II which the USAF had agreed to buy in unmodified form.
 
marauder2048 said:
In that regard, the really big missing aircraft is the A-12 Avenger II which the USAF had agreed to buy in unmodified form.

The A-12 would have had serious signature problems with it's straight trailing edge, not to mention it was becoming woefully over weight.
 
bobbymike said:
Ian33 said:
Worst mistake the USF ever made.

Most beautiful aircraft ever to grace the skies.
And then imagine 400+ of them in perfect world........... :'( talk about a conventional deterrent.

And how we will all melt into the floor when the Raider is rolled out....and it's an FB23.
 
Sundog said:
marauder2048 said:
In that regard, the really big missing aircraft is the A-12 Avenger II which the USAF had agreed to buy in unmodified form.

The A-12 would have had serious signature problems with it's straight trailing edge, not to mention it was becoming woefully over weight.

Gasp! Signature and weight issues during development? That's clearly unprecedented and unmitigable.

Even with those deficiencies, it still would have been vastly more survivable and effective than the A-6 and the F-111.
And unlike a notional FB-23, it was designed to land on a carrier.
 
I thought the A-12 had a fundamentally wrong approach to stealth? Quellish said something like the USN had the wrong ideas? This may have been in reference to A-12 low altitude ops and low altitude being bad for low observability?

Anyway, A-12 or FB-23 would have saved the USAF a lot of heartache.
 
DrRansom said:
I thought the A-12 had a fundamentally wrong approach to stealth? Quellish said something like the USN had the wrong ideas? This may have been in reference to A-12 low altitude ops and low altitude being bad for low observability?

All of the above. It was just a bad design, as also mentioned by Ben Rich when they asked him to help out with the nozzles. It did look good, though.
 
The Su-27 doesn't have thrust vectoring either, it uses very advanced aerodynamics, an unstable design and fly by wire to do the maneuver, the yf-23 had an advanced version of all of those and a higher thrust to weight ratio and a lower wingload, which means it can generate more lift per kg of aircraft and thus turn harder.
 
malipa said:
The Su-27 doesn't have thrust vectoring either, it uses very advanced aerodynamics, an unstable design and fly by wire to do the maneuver, the yf-23 had an advanced version of all of those and a higher thrust to weight ratio and a lower wingload, which means it can generate more lift per kg of aircraft and thus turn harder.

When has a non-tvc Flanker ever done a back flip? (Horizontal, not a tailslide.)
 
In 1989: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjvIlWRnc8Q
The maneuver can be done without thrustvectoring :D
 
sferrin is talking about the kulbit, aka powerloop for the raptor.

Well by the way, he was referring to the argument that part of LM win was made by "showy" demonstrations, like TVC low speed maneuvers, during the ATF dem/val period. This is what Paul Metz and Jim Sandberg said during the recent WMOF lecture.
 

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