No Korean Emergency funding.

zen

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What if the UK either didn't get involved in the Korean War or the war didn't happen.
In turn no mad scramble to get things into production as they feared WWIII might kick off early.
 

alertken

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May I offer a Foundation 101 before offering thoughts on: “never happened” and “not with UK”? The de-colonisation of E/SE Asia has been captured by revisionists, so I/we can't talk about its effect on UK aircraft programmes unless we have a consensus on context. I start from this perspective and would welcome input before I turn that into my take on the Q:

What Actually Happened:
9/45: Stalin angered by exclusion from Occupation of Italy and Japan, both having killed many Ivans. So he turns to open material support to Mao and to plausible denial in stirring Assymetric Warfare to ensure friendly replacements in ex-Japanese Occupied territory.

By late 1949: USSR has reduced its presence in Korea to a Naval base, US in the South to a training cadre. Nobody helped Neths. to stay in (more of) E.Indies; US helped Philippines to deal with Mao's Freedom Fighters. ANZ is helping UK deal with more in Malaya; US helps France 7/49 with P-63C Kingcobras to deal with more in Cochin China. By 6/50 Mao has tidied up Hainan and Tibet, leaving only Formosa, HK and Spratlies until he might have a Navy.

Kim the First sees a chance to push S.Rhee into the sea and asks Mao+Stalin for money & material, but not men. They agree and Kim invades, 25/6/50.

US Aid Programmes to 6/54 cascade vast money and kit to Allies. Most here know of end-items (RAF B-29/Neptune/Sabre, RN Avenger/Skyraider): we do not all know of part-funding of UK R&D and production (NATO Standard Types included Swift, Hunter, Venom) and some of us do not know of US supply, free, of factory plant and equipment - much of A300B's British and French structure was made off US machine tools put into Hawarden for Vampire, Filton for Venom, Toulouse for Aquilon (yes, really!)

What If: Case A: MacArthur stops at 38th. Parallel, 10/50 and does not push towards the Yalu.

Case B: No UN Resolution (because Molotov was in NY, 25/6/50, to veto), so:
UK takes the same position as it was taking on France-in-Vietnam: to ignore.
But US goes gung-ho (as JFK/LBJ would in 1964), quickly finding who are its friends.
 
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zen

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Case 0 is Kim getting a 'no'.

Case A....We're talking about MacAuthur here. Who trotted out the infamous line "let's push on to Peking". So getting him to stop at the 38th or the Yalu would not be easy.

Case B.....say Labour don't loose the election and the UN vote is vetoed.
US UK relations would not improve.
No move to supply troops is a possibility, leaving it to Australia and New Zealand. Possible logistics support. Only?
 

alertken

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Case A: it was PLA entering N.Korea, 25/10/50 that caused US/UK to see this as the rehearsal room for WW3. The vast sums that soon came to UK Aero, part from UK, part from US taxpayers, created UK/GW - plant/equipment to implement 20-27 February,1950 “Burns/Templer” GW data Agreements; and UK/AW - by 6-8 December,1950: Truman/Attlee atomic inter-operation Agreement; and UK Strategic Bomber capability -9/2/51 production order for 25 Valiant (50% of all 104 would be US-funded); and 13 March,1952: MoS Super-Priority, under US/UK Combined Materials Resources Committees, for 6 aero Projects; 13/10/52 for Victor/Vulcan and, crucially, 3 civil types. That was the foundation for the industry we know and love today.

So: very simple: no MacArthur exceeding his Authority, driving to the edge of China, repelled, asking Truman to nuke them...then no favour for Air within a modest Defence Budget.
The industry would have emerged gently at the scale of Italy's...except, of course, that Italy's would not have emerged as it did, part-funded by US to build for WW3.
 
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Kadija_Man

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"Nobody helped Neths. to stay in (more of) E.Indies"

Well Australia attempted to - it supplied large quantities of ex-WWII 25Pdr ammunition. Menzies, the Australian PM of the day decided that Sukarno and Co. were "Communist" (without proof) and decided it was better to keep the Netherlands in control. The Australian Union movement disagreed and attempted to block the loading of the ammunition and other stores in Australian ports. They were initially unsuccessful but stopped later shipments being loaded onto ships.
 

starviking

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"Nobody helped Neths. to stay in (more of) E.Indies"

Well Australia attempted to - it supplied large quantities of ex-WWII 25Pdr ammunition. Menzies, the Australian PM of the day decided that Sukarno and Co. were "Communist" (without proof) and decided it was better to keep the Netherlands in control. The Australian Union movement disagreed and attempted to block the loading of the ammunition and other stores in Australian ports. They were initially unsuccessful but stopped later shipments being loaded onto ships.
And the Unions movement also was in favour of Sukarno, that "anti-colonialist", colonising West Papua. They attempted to block Neth. forces from Australian ports during the Papuan confrontation.
 
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zen

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Well I don't buy the idea that UK industry and RAF /FAA would be building only license aircraft designs or buying from the US.
Domestic sourced would still happen, but it is plausible that there would be less of everything and some dropped or never started.
But what is another question.

GW...well had it stayed RO there's a case for Brakemine's further development and this GAP entering service. Knock-on effects down to Orange Nell and up to Blue Envoy.
 

alertken

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Case B: well...cataclysmic.
Truman might have moved garrison Forces from Japan to S.Korea, 7/50 even against a USSR veto, but then what? Kim would have pressed on to contact, and would have done what he did: near-push US into the sea. Would MacArthur have been Authorised to move to Formed Force and, as he did, push him back to 38th.? Would AN Other have joined? Well, not France, embroiled already v.Communists in Vietnam, against the policy of the 2nd. (just) largest bloc (PCF) in the Assemblee Nationale. ANZ? See post 6. So, UK sulking, what then? 1951 an Election Year, Republicans sceptical about foreign entanglements. Truman could well have imposed stop at 38th. What then?

Well, NATO was at that moment merely a vague political entanglement. Ike SACEUR+Monty Deputy wef 1/1/51 took until 1/4/52 to set up SHAPE/SACLANT Command structure, North/Central/South, Ike by then President - which he won by committing as candidate: I will go to Korea (and sort it out). If UK had not been there, boots on ground, thus encouraging others, inc ANZ, to join the new Mission of International Law, well: let me not suggest excess UK influence, but our Cases could include early demise of NATO. I suggest the actual co-operations (GW/AW/money/kit) might not have happened. Divorce is not harmonious.
 
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