MiG-29 heat seekers

[Dilbert]

Some questions for our European friends:

(a) I have seen a photo of Slovak MiG-29 carrying a Python AAM [1], but I can't access it. Is there such a photo on the web? I would like to post it to a forum, as evidence that the aircraft can really carry this weapon.

(b) Is there any news about the question, whether Slovak 9.12 can employ R-27T missile, and why/why not? It seems odd that it should be able to employ heat-seekers of foreign manufacture, but not Russian.

(c) Did the Slovak MiG-29 receive some special upgrade to use Python?

Sources:
- KREATIV multimedia, "Unveiled Secrets No.1 : MiG-29", 2002

 

[mrdetonator]

Some questions for our European friends:

(a) I have seen a photo of Slovak MiG-29 carrying a Python AAM [1], but I can't access it. Is there such a photo on the web? I would like to post it to a forum, as evidence that the aircraft can really carry this weapon.

(b) Is there any news about the question, whether Slovak 9.12 can employ R-27T missile, and why/why not? It seems odd that it should be able to employ heat-seekers of foreign manufacture, but not Russian.

(c) Did the Slovak MiG-29 receive some special upgrade to use Python?

Sources:
- KREATIV multimedia, "Unveiled Secrets No.1 : MiG-29", 2002

a. when the picture is on screen, leave the multimedia application, the picture will remain on your desktop, then push the "print screen" keyboard button and insert to a image viewer(e.g. Irfan view) by pushing CTRL+V and save.

b. the R-27T was never delivered, so what news would you like to hear? AFAIK the APU launcher contains nitrogen bottle, which is assigned only for the R-27T use.

c. I`am not aware of any upgrade to the Python AAM, but in case you thought about french Magic-2, the missile had adapted cabling inside the APU only.

 

[Dilbert]

b. the R-27T was never delivered, so what news would you like to hear? AFAIK the APU launcher contains nitrogen bottle, which is assigned only for the R-27T use.

Hmm, was that how our discussion last ended? That 9.12 CAN use R-27T? I must have become confused. My Russian researcher friends couldn't find any evidence that 9.12 could use it, only 9.13. I thought that perhaps since R-27T has an autopilot, that it must be correctly recognized and programmed by the fighter weapons system - unlike a normal heat-seeker that gives just a lock tone in the headset. Somewhere I heard from a pilot that R-60 provides a lock tone, R-23T does not. I don't know about R-73. Maybe there are some differences?

c. I`am not aware of any upgrade to the Python AAM, but in case you thought about french Magic-2, the missile had adapted cabling inside the APU only.

Ah Magic 2, my mistake. Thanks, I found a photo through Google since my primary CD-ROM drive is broken (and the software insists that it can only use the primary one! ???)

 

[Pit]

Hmm, was that how our discussion last ended? That 9.12 CAN use R-27T? I must have become confused. My Russian researcher friends couldn't find any evidence that 9.12 could use it, only 9.13. I thought that perhaps since R-27T has an autopilot, that it must be correctly recognized and programmed by the fighter weapons system - unlike a normal heat-seeker that gives just a lock tone in the headset. Somewhere I heard from a pilot that R-60 provides a lock tone, R-23T does not. I don't know about R-73. Maybe there are some differences?

Now, are you suggesting that R-27T is a Lock-after-launch missile with an /inertial/ phase that needs such an autopilot?...could you explain a little better?.

Thanks!.

 

[Dilbert]

No, we know it has no datalink, and we know it's lock-on-before-launch from the available documentation, so to be honest I don't know what the autopilot is there for. Maybe some minor trajectory optimization, because proportional navigation might be too draggy for such a large weapon?

 

[Pit]

No, we know it has no datalink, and we know it's lock-on-before-launch from the available documentation, so to be honest I don't know what the autopilot is there for. Maybe some minor trajectory optimization, because proportional navigation might be too draggy for such a large weapon?

I think I know why did it need it, maybe because the R-27R1 needs to do the "security maneuver" after separation from aircraft, 0.5 seconds after launch (check Combat Methodology Manual), I guess an R-27T would need to do this maneuver too...and so it would need an autopilot to pull down the missile and then up towards the target...

 

[Dilbert]

What a very good hypothesis! I'd forgotten about that.

 

[mrdetonator]

Hmm, was that how our discussion last ended? That 9.12 CAN use R-27T? I must have become confused. My Russian researcher friends couldn't find any evidence that 9.12 could use it, only 9.13.

Really, did I say that? I do remember a discussion about launching the R-27T from the AKU-470. Well, maybe you should double-check your email archive what I wrote you two years ago. I`m wondering if you are still hunting answers for the same questions?

 

[Dilbert]

No worries, I still hunt for answers even after I have the answers. It's amazing what information turns up!

 

[mrdetonator]

No worries, I still hunt for answers even after I have the answers. It's amazing what information turns up!

yes, but being more sceptical because the last answer hasn`t satisfied you as much as the previous one, so still looking for the thruth out there...

 

[Dilbert]

They are not always my personal doubts. Sometimes even if I am convinced, others are not, so I have to keep looking.

 

[Slick]

Our situation was very simple: 9.12B does not allow different types of IR missiles to be placed on single aircraft. They of course can be physically hung, but system will not recognize such configuration and won't fire anything. So you need to choose one IR missile type for that particular aircraft.

 

[mrdetonator]

Our situation was very simple: 9.12B does not allow different types of IR missiles to be placed on single aircraft. They of course can be physically hung, but system will not recognize such configuration and won't fire anything. So you need to choose one IR missile type for that particular aircraft.

Interesting,the Warshaw pact 9.12A weapon computer handles only two guided AAM at once with the built-in onboard gun. So, the IR missile configuration may vary,e.g. 4xR-60, 2xR-73 and the system will recognize them. The problem occurs when you attach a third missile, the combo R-27, R-73, R-60 won`t work.

 

[Slick]

It was misunderstanding with my source, our case is same Mrdetonator mentioned... sorry guys #@@$! happens :-\

 

[0minutes]

Does anyone have any official declassified documents regarding the R-73 specific guidance, including its infrared jamming resistance?
I’ve tried reading multiple sources on the internet but they site the same few sources for their info which makes it quite limiting as it’s not as in detail and only have well known figures which is why I’m reaching out to you guys.

TIA!

 

[F-2]

Not yet but I have a FOIA request on the Moldovan Fulcrums the US purchased and their armament. My last communication was March 26

Good Afternoon,


This request is still assigned to the office of primary responsibility for search and review.

HAF FOIA

Before that August 20th

This is to acknowledge receipt of your 13-Aug-23, Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request for In 1997 the United Sates purchased 21 Mig-29 aircraft from the Moldovan government. Between October and November 1997 these aircraft were delivered to the national air and space intelligence center at Wright-Patterson AFB 14 of these aircraft were Mig-29S “Fulcrum-C” Would it be possible to review any documentation sold with the aircraft as well as the results of exploration of these aircraft by NASIC. Also included in the sale were 507 air-to-air missiles, including 344 R-60 AA-8 Aphids, 112 R-73 AA-11 Archers and 51 R-27 AA-10 Alamos. Can any documentation included with these missiles as well as the results of any exploration by NASIC be reviewed for release. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-nov-05-mn-50473-story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...et-deal/c66992f5-48df-4d72-b519-bb40c849c8b0/ https://www.c-span.org/video/?94736-1/us-purchase-moldovan-aircraft https://www.nytimes.com/1997/11/09/...-us-takes-a-few-migs-off-moldova-s-hands.html.

Based on our initial review, we believe we cannot process your request within the statutory 20 workdays because our organization has a significant number of pending FOIA requests. To ensure all requesters are properly served in the order their requests were received, we have instituted multitrack processing of requests. Based on the information you provided, we have placed your request in the complex track.

The Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) provides for the collection of fees based on the costs of processing a FOIA request and your fee category. Based upon the information provided in your request, we have placed you in the Other category.

We have assigned number 2023-05606-F to identify your request; should you need to contact us about your request. Please direct your questions to the HAF FOIA team at [email protected] and use this assigned number to assist us in responding more promptly.

We will strive to provide an update between 90 and 120 days. Our policy is to process requests within their respective tracks in the order in which they were received in accordance with 32 CFR, Part 286.8. We will notify you in writing if additional processing time is required. We do process each FOIA request as quickly as possible, however delayed responses can be expected.


Very Respectfully,

HAF FOIA TEAM
SAF/AAII (FOIA)
Office of the Secretary of the Air Force
1000 Air Force Pentagon
Washington, DC 20330-1000

Just to give you a further update. There may be significant delays in getting this information to you. The documents need to be translated and then go through a declassification process. Currently we do not have an estimated date of completion due to the complex nature of the request, and the need to coordinate with other offices and departments.

We thank you for your continued patience.

Sincerely,
Jason R. Dib, CIV USAF
Government Information Specialist
Office of the Administrative Assistant to the Secretary of the Air Force
1000 Air Force Pentagon, Washington D.C., 20330-1000

So eventually, but it could be many months more.


Someone I know who is fairly knowledgeable claimed it’s a “cross array seeker” with no “micron filter”

I’m hoping to get official info

 

[0minutes]

Not yet but I have a FOIA request on the Moldovan Fulcrums the US purchased and their armament. My last communication was March 26


Before that August 20th






So eventually, but it could be many months more.


Someone I know who is fairly knowledgeable claimed it’s a “cross array seeker” with no “micron filter”

I’m hoping to get official info

Wow man, thanks! I really looked forwards to studying the different IRCCM (jamming resistance) especially after war thunder started modelling it which i found very intriguing! Again thanks, looking forwards to it incase something is shared.

 

[F-2]

Wow man, thanks! I really looked forwards to studying the different IRCCM (jamming resistance) especially after war thunder started modelling it which i found very intriguing! Again thanks, looking forwards to it incase something is shared.

Absolutely, it will be a while but I’m excited about posting it. I hope it answers a lot of questions.

 

[NMaude]

Someone I know who is fairly knowledgeable claimed it’s a “cross array seeker” with no “micron filter”

What exactly is a "Cross array seeker"? Also which IR-band would this "Micron filter" being dealing with?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

This is a 4 element seeker like Magic 2. R-73 has a 2 element seeker it seems.