Messerschmitt P 1073 with nuclear propulsion?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Dilandu said:
Then stop with your cryptic hints and vague allusions. Frankly, we are quite fed up with your constant insistence that bunch of some dubious documents - some of which are pretty clear fakes, for Holy Kitten's sake! - indicates that Nazi Germany somehow reached the level of nuclear technology nobody else could repeat even eighty years after! For Holy Kitten's sake, man, you are talking about NAZI! The ones who does not understood scientific method. The ones, who were extremely clumsy in anything electronic! The ones, who could not made a decent medium TANK during the whole war, with their last machines being shoddy versions of early 1930s Pz.IV.

This just doesn't mix together; the reality that Nazi Germany was pretty clumsy and incompetent in engineering, and the myth that they somehow made advances in nuclear physics greater than anyone else, despite never spending even a tiny fraction of resources Americans and Soviets spent on their nuclear projects.
Click to expand...

Wer ist das "we"? Who are these mystery people who dismiss certain things? Or to paraphrase another poster, "Insta-dismiss" whatever might bother them?
 
edwest4 said:
How is your comment about Todd Rider being interested in viruses explain anything?
Click to expand...
Sigh. Go back and re-read: the idea was to find a subject matter expert to declassify documents. He's a virologist or some such, not a nuclear weapons designer. He doesn't appear to have a security clearance, nor does he seem to work for the NARA or the DoD. He's thus utterly irrelevant to the discussion.

So what does a scanning electron microscope have to do with the discussion of atomic aircraft engines?
 
Certainly, if there were design studies on nuclear propulsion systems going on in Germany beginning from 1942, it was in a prototype stage at that time of course, maybe like that:

PROPULSION.png
An engine like that might have caused EMP effects in the sorounding area. And the scientists prototyping a device like that, might have not felt very comfortable afterwards.
 
Last edited:
novum said:
Certainly, if there were design studies on nuclear propulsion going on in Germany beginning from 1942, it was in its childrens boots at that time of course, maybe like that:
Click to expand...
What? That's not only in English, it is so simplistic as to be essentially meaningless.

novum said:
An engine like that might have caused EMP effects in the sorounding area.
Click to expand...

No. That's not how reactors work. EMP is a function of bombs, and basically of bombs *above* the atmosphere.

novum said:
And the scientists prototyping a device like that, might not have felt very comfortable afterwards.
Click to expand...
Sure, they would've died horribly, since German science of the time was wholly inadequate to the task of even properly understanding reactor basics.
 
Orionblamblam said:
What? That's not only in English, it is so simplistic as to be essentially meaningless.



No. That's not how reactors work. EMP is a function of bombs, and basically of bombs *above* the atmosphere.


Sure, they would've died horribly, since German science of the time was wholly inadequate to the task of even properly understanding reactor basics.
Click to expand...
Never heard of a HEMP?
 
novum said:
An engine like that might have caused EMP effects in the sorounding area.
Click to expand...
Erm... no, it wouldn't. Running solid-phase reactor did not produce enough gamma-radiation or high-energy particles to create any significan ionization of air around. Neutrons does not ionize.

novum said:
Never heard of a HEMP?
Click to expand...
HEMP is a high-atmosphertic effect, created due to to nuclear blast-caused ionization of upper layers of atmosphere and creating a high burst of relativistic electrons. Nuclear reactors does not produce such effect.
 
Prophet141 said:
Thank you!
Click to expand...
In 1946/47, Aerojet, Douglas, North American and Martin all had *decent* ideas on attaining orbit. Built right then these rockets would certainly have failed, probably spectacularly. But they were *better* designs for orbital launch than the wholly notional A-9/10/11 that WvB used to bluff his way into the US Army's good graces. After the war, having a German "rocket scientist" was all the rage and they overshadowed the Americans. You'd hope that in fields driven by engineering that the best ideas would always win, but it's amazing how often "fashion" wins the contract.
 
novum said:
Hi there,

in BIOS final report no. 142 marked "secret", "Information obtained from targets of opportunity in the sonthofen area", besides the well known developments of Zippermayr, the following statement can be found:

View attachment 723373

It is interesting to note that in a report marked "Geheime Kommandosache", 16.09.1942, "Mitteilung der Heeresversuchsanstalt an die Forschungsanstalt der Deutschen Reichspost in Berlin betr. Ubernahme von Untersuchungen auf den Gebieten der Treibstoffforschung und des Atomzerfalls zur Leistungssteigerung von Flussigkeits-Raketenantrieben", atomic propulsion is already being suggested:

View attachment 723374

View attachment 723375

Did anybody of you ever come across such a German nuclear propulsion system?

Kind regards,
Manuel
Click to expand...

What or where is "Onnp Neclenburg"?

"Neclenburg" might sound German to you, but the writing is not (Necklenburg e.g. would be more convincing...).
 
You might be right, but even than, the "k" is missing...
 
williamjpellas said:
Yes, another stupid and unworkable concept from the obviously deficient "B Team" of wartime German nuclear research. Got it.
Click to expand...
Well, thats not correct, Ardenne was a real clever guy and continued his carreer in the Soviet Union and the "GDR". His approach in Isotope seperation will propably allways bring him close to nuclear bombs, despite he (might be wrong) dind't work with that in mind....
 
Orionblamblam said:
What? That's not only in English, it is so simplistic as to be essentially meaningless.



No. That's not how reactors work. EMP is a function of bombs, and basically of bombs *above* the atmosphere.


Sure, they would've died horribly, since German science of the time was wholly inadequate to the task of even properly understanding reactor basics.
Click to expand...

Of course these kind of reactors used in these early nuclear propulsion concepts which were developed by US NERVA scientists caused gamma radiation effects on equipment if not properly shielded:

GAMMA.png

They certainly caused electromagnetic interferences in the on board systems, otherwise US NERVA scientists would not have made such concluding remarks:

NERVA.png

And by the way, a HEMP weapon uses exactly these gamma radiation effects to cause short circuits in electrical equipments, only in a - lets say - bigger way.

If those concepts were originally developed by nobel price carriers like Heisenberg etc., I can not tell without getting access to still classified material from Germany,
now in the US. But lets keep in mind that people like Einstein were educated in Germany. It is too simplistic to say that Germans immigrating to the US suddenly
become brilliant scientists.

Best,
Manuel
 
Last edited:
kaiserd said:
So where are all those nuclear powered aircraft then? Why couldn’t the US or USSR, or anyone else build practical nuclear powered aircraft if Nazi Germany had largely figured it out in 1945? Particularly as they had access to Nazi Germany’s supposedly superior technology and technological know how to work from?

You need to prove your incredible (some might say unbelievable) proposition. I don’t need to disprove it (how would I even do so?).
Click to expand...

I am making no particular claims about WWII Nazi German nuclear aircraft propulsion. I am asking you what specific archival citations and documentation you have which you believe allows you to dismiss the content of the documents posted by novum by hand waving them away. I'll wait here while you post your own original research or even just some primary source documents from your files, thanks.
 
Nicknick said:
Well, thats not correct, Ardenne was a real clever guy and continued his carreer in the Soviet Union and the "GDR". His approach in Isotope seperation will propably allways bring him close to nuclear bombs, despite he (might be wrong) dind't work with that in mind....
Click to expand...
Orionblamblam said:
Sigh. Go back and re-read: the idea was to find a subject matter expert to declassify documents. He's a virologist or some such, not a nuclear weapons designer. He doesn't appear to have a security clearance, nor does he seem to work for the NARA or the DoD. He's thus utterly irrelevant to the discussion.

So what does a scanning electron microscope have to do with the discussion of atomic aircraft engines?
Click to expand...

Wrong across the board. How difficult is it to comprehend the phrase, "former US Navy physicist", or to read even a single page from the Google search I included upthread?

Really difficult, evidently.
 
His approach in Isotope seperation will propably allways bring him close to nuclear bombs, despite he (might be wrong) dind't work with that in mind....

Actually, he did. But that topic is verboten in this thread. You can read about this aspect of von Ardenne's work elsewhere if you're curious.
 
williamjpellas said:
Wrong across the board. How difficult is it to comprehend the phrase, "former US Navy physicist", or to read even a single page from the Google search I included upthread?

Really difficult, evidently.
Click to expand...
To quote Rider in his own words "I studied both biomedicine and engineering at MIT, including coursework at Harvard Medical School, and spent my career inventing novel biotechnology projects "

So to start with, he's not even a physicist, he's an enginer.

Even if he was a physicist, saying someone is a physicist is a bit like saying someone is an engineer - is that civil engineer, software engineer, rehabilitation engineer, sanitation engineer, or what? Physicist covers a multitude of sins. Being skilled in one area does not mean being skilled in any other area, and certainly not in all areas. Consider the differences between working in MEMS and working in high energy physics, there's almost no crossover, yet research in both areas could come under physics.

I'm a software engineer, my speciality is hard real time safety critical software, sub-specialities HUDs, fly-by-wire and weapons release systems. You don't want me for games programming, apps, or database work, I'd need to completely reskill. You really, really don't want anyone from those specialities trying to do my job, and you don't want any of us designing a bridge.

The issue isn't us refusing to follow your links, it's that they don't say what you think they do.
 
williamjpellas said:
I am making no particular claims about WWII Nazi German nuclear aircraft propulsion. I am asking you what specific archival citations and documentation you have which you believe allows you to dismiss the content of the documents posted by novum by hand waving them away. I'll wait here while you post your own original research or even just some primary source documents from your files, thanks.
Click to expand...

I am pointing to objective reality and actual historic events as relates to the actual topic of this topic/ discussion.
With respect you appear to be trying to make a pathetic non-argument.
I really don’t think I need to point to primary documents or my own research to evidence the lack of nuclear powered aircraft flying over my head.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DWG
kaiserd said:
I am pointing to objective reality and actual historic events as relates to the actual topic of this topic/ discussion.
With respect you appear to be trying to make a pathetic non-argument.
I really don’t think I need to point to primary documents or my own research to evidence the lack of nuclear powered aircraft flying over my head.
Click to expand...

Yeah, okay. You've mischaracterized what I have and haven't said here, and otherwise you've got nothing. Adios.
 
edwest4 said:
"insta-believe"? Do you really, really think that's what's going on? Really? William Pellas puts up documents and their archive locations and that counts - for you? Care to contact NARA and tell them NOT to believe in any declassified documents that cover the verboten subjects?

Slave labor? Please avoid making very large assumptions. Included in the documents I've seen are instructions that only Germans who are not among those counted as slave labor can work on specific projects. The security situation in Germany at the time was such that it required a pass to go from one town to the next. Please stop with your patented - crazy, delusional, and whatever else I have to say stuff in order to avoid talking about certain things routine
Click to expand...
Slave labor
 

Attachments

  • 519.jpg
    519.jpg
    1.1 MB · Views: 19
After the war, Bruno Bruckmann and Peter Kappus from the BMW group moved to the United States and designed jet engines for General Electric. See Figs. 9.86–9.97. Some of their postwar GE engines included the J47 turbojet engine (first run 1947, while Bruckmann and Kappus were still officially based at Wright Field but working with GE in nearby Evendale, Ohio), J73 turbojet engine (first run 1953), J79 or CJ805 turbojet engine (first run 1954), and TF35 or CJ805-23 turbofan engine (first run 1956). One of the most impressive projects by Bruckmann and Kappus was theYJ-93 engines for the Mach 3+ XB-70 Valkyrie (Figs. 9.89–9.90)....

Bruckmann and Kappus even designed jet engines that heated the air via nuclear fission instead of chemical combustion reactions. For example, they developed the GE X211 nuclear turbojet engine, which was first demonstrated in 1958 (Fig. 9.91). Two GE X211 engines would have powered the proposed Convair NX-2 bomber, which was cancelled before it could be completed [Carpenter 2003].

1711409125461.png
 
From the cover of the book by David M. Carpenter:

NX-2
Convair Nuclear Propulsion Jet
GE X211/J87 Nuclear Powered Jet Engine
Secret Project WS-125

From the back cover: ISBN 0-9633387-9-X
 
Topic is locked.

Former German engineers working on projects for nuclear aircraft engines in 1958 in America has precisely zero relevance to a putative wartime German atomic engine, except as to show how far away such an idea was from reality. Also Bruno Bruckmann was executive level, not an engineer on this program.

I think we've shown remarkable patience in discussing a palpably dubious reference in the testimony of a convicted conman. Please go research the concept of Occam's Razor.

Evaluate the probability that

1) A conman knew of a top secret engine powered by unknown physical principles rooted in atomics, which no other source mentions.
2) A conman lied.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom