Messerschmitt P 1073 with nuclear propulsion?

[novum]

Hi there,

in BIOS final report no. 142 marked "secret", "Information obtained from targets of opportunity in the sonthofen area", besides the well known developments of Zippermayr, the following statement can be found:



It is interesting to note that in a report marked "Geheime Kommandosache", 16.09.1942, "Mitteilung der Heeresversuchsanstalt an die Forschungsanstalt der Deutschen Reichspost in Berlin betr. Ubernahme von Untersuchungen auf den Gebieten der Treibstoffforschung und des Atomzerfalls zur Leistungssteigerung von Flussigkeits-Raketenantrieben", atomic propulsion is already being suggested:





Did anybody of you ever come across such a German nuclear propulsion system?

Kind regards,
Manuel

 

[Orionblamblam]

A 60 cm long, 20 cm diameter atomic engine made by slave labor?

 

[novum]

I think one of the main problems connected with that concept might be the shielding. Shielding means weight. However at that time I think the scientists were not yet well aware of the damage done by radioactive substances. And you are right, that would not have been created by slave labourers. It might have been more a facility like Peenemunde or Reichspost with top scientists like Heisenberg, who would be working on that kind of stuff.
Its interesting to note that in ADM 265/71, "Report on the history of the occupation by the allies from 5 May to 25 Nov 1945 and general activities of the Walterwerke, Kiel by Commander (E) I.G.Aylen, National Archives UK, the commmander asked Helmut Walter about atomic energy and have a look at his answer:

 

[Justo Miranda]

In my opinion, the only reasonable thing about this whole affair is that they were investigating the possibility of installing an experimental nuclear reactor on a submarine. But we must be open-minded to any new information, without automatic sectarianism.

 

[Orionblamblam]

I think one of the main problems connected with that concept ...

... is the existence of a concept we call "bullshit." After the war, all these scientists and engineers were interviewed by the US and UK and France; the smarter ones - pretty much all of them - knew that their best bets would be to get hired by the *western* allies. Germany would have no use for rocket scientists, and getting snagged by the Soviets would be *bad.* So it was in all their interests to inflate their resumes when talking to, say, the US Army. Look at von Braun: there were no German plans for orbital rockets, certainly none for space stations or lunar missions. But the man could think on his feet and convinced the US that he *had* worked on just such rockets. Darn it, all the papers were lost, so, shucks, you'll just have to hire me and my pals to recreate it. He was so good at running a line of BS that he ended up in charge of the US rocket effort and in the process erased the more forward-looking native US program in favor of his own more conservative V-2-tech-based program.

By the early 1940s, the promise of atomic power was no secret, no mystery. Everyone in German aeronautics doubtless had ideas about atomic powered everything, though there was no actual engineering. Just as today we can all say "a starship with an antimatter rocket" or even "a high-C vehicle using vacuum point energy," though none of us would be able to do anything more than doodle.

Amazing Astounding Astonishing Developments in the field of atomic propulsion designed in the early 1940's? You'll need more than an offhand comment. And with the rise of photorealistic fake AI constructs, you'll now need more than *photos* of Nazi atomic aircraft.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Yes, we should always be mindful of people 1) repeating hearsay as fact and 2) just plain inventing things in oral testimony of this kind.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Yes, we should always be mindful of people 1) repeating hearsay as fact and 2) just plain inventing things in oral testimony of this kind.

And the forthcoming nightmare of ChatGPT created text populating Midjourney illustrated "recently discovered documents."

 

[P-STICKNEY]

... is the existence of a concept we call "bullshit." After the war, all these scientists and engineers were interviewed by the US and UK and France; the smarter ones - pretty much all of them - knew that their best bets would be to get hired by the *western* allies. Germany would have no use for rocket scientists, and getting snagged by the Soviets would be *bad.* So it was in all their interests to inflate their resumes when talking to, say, the US Army. Look at von Braun: there were no German plans for orbital rockets, certainly none for space stations or lunar missions. But the man could think on his feet and convinced the US that he *had* worked on just such rockets. Darn it, all the papers were lost, so, shucks, you'll just have to hire me and my pals to recreate it. He was so good at running a line of BS that he ended up in charge of the US rocket effort and in the process erased the more forward-looking native US program in favor of his own more conservative V-2-tech-based program.

By the early 1940s, the promise of atomic power was no secret, no mystery. Everyone in German aeronautics doubtless had ideas about atomic powered everything, though there was no actual engineering. Just as today we can all say "a starship with an antimatter rocket" or even "a high-C vehicle using vacuum point energy," though none of us would be able to do anything more than doodle.

Amazing Astounding Astonishing Developments in the field of atomic propulsion designed in the early 1940's? You'll need more than an offhand comment. And with the rise of photorealistic fake AI constructs, you'll now need more than *photos* of Nazi atomic aircraft.

Add in that the Germans didn't have the first clue about Uranium Enrichment, let alone the available Electric Power or Cooling Water required, nor, since they didn't have the vaguest clue about how.to build a nuclear reactor (The Hagerloch Kettle would have solved any questions if had done anything - by fizzling and fatally irradiating the build/test team. (Shielding? What's that?), Thus Plutonium is Right Out.
As for von Braun's influence - He was the head of the Army's Ballistic Missile programs, where he produced a Next-Generation V-2 follow-on (Redstone), which flew OK, but was really not practical as a field weapon, and a Notorious Lemon, (Jupiter), which, uniquely among the First Generation Liquid-Fueled ICBMs and IRBMs, utterly failed as a launch vehicle. The Air Force (Atlas, Titan, Thor), and Navy (Polaris) went their own paths.

 

[P-STICKNEY]

... is the existence of a concept we call "bullshit." After the war, all these scientists and engineers were interviewed by the US and UK and France; the smarter ones - pretty much all of them - knew that their best bets would be to get hired by the *western* allies. Germany would have no use for rocket scientists, and getting snagged by the Soviets would be *bad.* So it was in all their interests to inflate their resumes when talking to, say, the US Army. Look at von Braun: there were no German plans for orbital rockets, certainly none for space stations or lunar missions. But the man could think on his feet and convinced the US that he *had* worked on just such rockets. Darn it, all the papers were lost, so, shucks, you'll just have to hire me and my pals to recreate it. He was so good at running a line of BS that he ended up in charge of the US rocket effort and in the process erased the more forward-looking native US program in favor of his own more conservative V-2-tech-based program.

By the early 1940s, the promise of atomic power was no secret, no mystery. Everyone in German aeronautics doubtless had ideas about atomic powered everything, though there was no actual engineering. Just as today we can all say "a starship with an antimatter rocket" or even "a high-C vehicle using vacuum point energy," though none of us would be able to do anything more than doodle.

Amazing Astounding Astonishing Developments in the field of atomic propulsion designed in the early 1940's? You'll need more than an offhand comment. And with the rise of photorealistic fake AI constructs, you'll now need more than *photos* of Nazi atomic aircraft.

I thought R.D.Arndr, the Rootin' Teuton, disappeared years ago.

 

[DWG]

Essentially these amount to "Let me tell you what I think you want to hear"*, "Hey, any chance this chain reaction stuff could add extra energy to rocket exhaust? Someone ask the guys at the Reichspostministerium"** and "I did hear about atomic energy, but let's remember how advanced my hydrogen-peroxide stuff is"***.

The concept of getting energy out of nuclear fission was well enough established by the outbreak of war, but no one knew details, and scientists and engineers gossip like anyone else does, especially in the absence of solid information. The surprise would have been if people hadn't heard of atomic power, not that they had and had wondered about potential applications.

* 60cm x 20cm sounds like a ramjet or pulsejet, which incidentally is exactly what the P.1073B is powered by. You're not getting any useful energy out of a tube of non-enriched uranium, which is all that would have been available. Perhaps more pertinent to the information is that Ernst _was a convicted conman_, which the BIOS report notes when concluding his information has little value.

** The Reichpostministerium, not the Kaiser Wilhelm Institut, they don't even have a good enough grasp on the research to direct it to the atomic A-team, not the B-team.

*** This is clearly the intelligence officer trailing a lure in the water to see if Walter had any contact or involvement with the German atomic programme, he probably did it for half a dozen other topics as well, and for every engineer he came across. Walther's reply basically amounts to "I heard we had something going on in Norway, but you guys messed that up".

 

[edwest4]

Declassified documents and books, primarily in German, show a very large effort was going on in Germany to build an atomic bomb. The information in the first post was released briefly right after the war, only to disappear.

Some facts to consider:

Uranium for the German atomic program was seized from Belgium. The ore came from the Katanga mine in the Belgian Congo.
Ore was seized in France after the German invasion.
The Germans operated a uranium mine in Joachimstahl in Czechoslovakia.

A number of reactor vessels were in operation. The myth of the Haigerloch reactor being the only one is a myth. An Alsos Mission document identifies these other sites.

Dated 2 May 1945 from Headquarters, European Theater of Operations, United States Army, Alsos Mission, APO 887

Subject: Gerlach Summary of Nuclear Reports

1. A new edition of "Forschungsberichte" was planned containing articles on successful pile experiments. Five articles in all were contemplated, and Gerlach wrote an introductory summary. We found this introductory summary in rough pencilled form, which gives the status of the project as of January 1945.

[Successful pile experiments? How can this be?]

3. Abbreviations in the above have the following significance:

L II Leipzig II
CTR Chem. technische Reichsanstalt
G II Gottow II
G III Gottow III
B V Berlin Versuch

The reactor vessel at Haigerloch was designated Versuch G-III which dates to 1943/44.
The Germans were very aware of shielding from radiation and operated a large uranium separation program. They also produced metallic uranium at the Auer company in Oranienburg. Research was ongoing to apply atomic propulsion to submarines, rockets and aircraft.

From the Nonproliferation Review, Summer 2000.

"The Russians seized a 60 ton cyclotron and a plasma-ionic isotope separation installation at the workshop of Manfred von Ardenne. In Austria, the Russians acquired nearly 340 kg of metallic uranium."

Manfred von Ardenne worked for the Reichspost. He was captured by the Russians.

 

[williamjpellas]

And the forthcoming nightmare of ChatGPT created text populating Midjourney illustrated "recently discovered documents."

Right. Because clearly that is the only possible explanation for the documents posted by novum and edwest4. Not one of the skeptics here have either 1) posted any sources which corroborate their rejection of the existence and content of novum's and ed's papers, or 2) bothered to confirm the existence of those papers in the first place. No, first it was "the documents must be fakes!" and now its....uhhh, well, actually it's the same thing. Only now it must be AI that's doing it.

Whew.

EDIT: I will walk this back half a step. DWG has written a reasonable response. I don't share his conclusions or most of his reasoning, but there is at least an attempt to respond to some of the content in the actual documents. However the Reichspost was certainly not the "B team". This is overwhelmingly established by numerous primary sources. The Reichspost and its in house superlab were among the most important entities in the overall German nuclear weapons program.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Not one of the skeptics here have either 1) posted any sources which corroborate their rejection of the existence and content of novum's and ed's papers, or 2) bothered to confirm the existence of those papers in the first place.

Not the skeptics job. In any event, nobody here - yet - doubts that these documents probably exist. What sensible people doubt is that a few offhand remarks mean that there were actual, sensible designs for atomic powered *anything.* The documents so far presented provide zero useful evidence for anything beyond some guy blowing smoke to an interrogator.

No, first it was "the documents must be fakes!"

No, it was "people lie to save their asses."

 

[Dilandu]

Did anybody of you ever come across such a German nuclear propulsion system?

At very-very best, it may be some kind of purely theoretical concept, like "herr general, just imagine - the tiny speck of uranium contain more power than the whole tank of gazoline, and if we crack the secret of cracking the atom, we could make planes fly on this stuff! Here is my artistic impression, how such atomikflugzeug may look like. Now, all you need is just to give me ten million reichsmarks..."

At worst? It could be a post-war fabrication, part of "wunderwaffe" mythology.

 

[Dilandu]

... is the existence of a concept we call "bullshit." After the war, all these scientists and engineers were interviewed by the US and UK and France; the smarter ones - pretty much all of them - knew that their best bets would be to get hired by the *western* allies. Germany would have no use for rocket scientists, and getting snagged by the Soviets would be *bad.*

Disagree on later part. USSR actually paid German scientists quite a good money, and after some time (caused by secrecy reasons) allowed them to return home. The rest is perfectly true, of course.

 

[williamjpellas]

Add in that the Germans didn't have the first clue about Uranium Enrichment, let alone the available Electric Power or Cooling Water required, nor, since they didn't have the vaguest clue about how.to build a nuclear reactor (The Hagerloch Kettle would have solved any questions if had done anything - by fizzling and fatally irradiating the build/test team. (Shielding? What's that?), Thus Plutonium is Right Out.
As for von Braun's influence - He was the head of the Army's Ballistic Missile programs, where he produced a Next-Generation V-2 follow-on (Redstone), which flew OK, but was really not practical as a field weapon, and a Notorious Lemon, (Jupiter), which, uniquely among the First Generation Liquid-Fueled ICBMs and IRBMs, utterly failed as a launch vehicle. The Air Force (Atlas, Titan, Thor), and Navy (Polaris) went their own paths.

G-378. Georg Stetter. Technische Energiegewinnung mit Hilfe von Kernreaktionen. FA 002/0762. Deutsches Museum Archive, Munich. This early 1939 draft of a patent application covered both fusion and fission reactions. A key section on fusion is given below. In reviewing this patent draft, Karl Wirtz raised concerns that the fusion claims were too similar to Brasch and Lange’s German Patent 662036 [AMPG 34/29]. The final patent application deleted the fusion claims and polished the fission claims (see p. 3185). Stetter and his fellow researchers were heavily involved in both the wartime fission and fusion programs (pp. 3185–3188, 3786–3801, 4081–4088, 4201).

In the main we have to differentiate between the induction of nuclear reactions by ionizing, that is rapidly moving charged particles, and the analogous effect of (uncharged) neutrons. In the first case, it is important to avoid the loss of energy occurring during ionization, that is, the total energy released by the individual particles must be retained by the system, as speed of other particles (nuclei), at least in the main, for further nuclear reactions to be exploited. This is made possible by highest spatial and temporal concentrations of the process; the same must therefore be performed on a small volume and approximately adiabatically, because the very high temperature condition can exist only for a very short time. As an example, a high-voltage capacitor discharge by highly compressed deuterium gas is considered: high-energy, short-term discharge (about 1 million volts surge), small electrodes of low heat capacity, if necessary also from fissile material, discharge volume of a few mm expansion at such pressure that the resulting ionizing particles (H1 , H3 , He3 ) practically run into each other. The arrangement results in an explosion of tremendous energy development. However, a slow burning off is not possible because, as already indicated, temperatures at which these reactions still sufficiently occur cannot be maintained for longer periods of time.

Philip Morrison and Karl Cohen. 31 July 1944. Appraisal of Enemy Bomb Production. [NARA RG 77, Entry UD-22A, Box 168, Folder 203.11—Tech. Countermeasures + RW—1943–1944]

APPRAISAL OF ENEMY BOMB PRODUCTION

Summary

Recent evidence essentially confirms our earlier general statements on enemy bomb production. The reports now at hand lead us to conclude:

1. A German “Y” project has been underway since early 1943. <<<< This means electromagnetic separators, as in the Manhattan Project's Y-12 plant.

2. A D2O pile is in operation, but we do not believe that this is on production level. <<<< This means an operational heavy water reactor.

3. It is implied that a separation method is operating at a production level, for it is surely improbable that the enemy will organize a utilization group without something to use.

We include a time schedule, and a technical discuss of the probable means employed.

Enemy production of devices can be as high as:

1. 1 device every 3 months—on the assumption that 30 kg of material are required per device.

2. 1 device every month—on the assumption that 10 kg of material are required per device.

In either case the first completed device could be in enemy hands now.

 

[DWG]

No, first it was "the documents must be fakes!" and now its....uhhh, well, actually it's the same thing. Only now it must be AI that's doing it.

The full version of the BIOS report being quoted as 'proof' of an atomic powerplant for the P.1073B actually says the guy is a convicted conman and his information is largely worthless. Selective quoting can make documents say the complete opposite of what they really said.

There's plenty of documentary evidence the Germans did not have a successful nuclear programme, starting with the Farm Hall Transcripts which show that if they did they kept it secret from Heisenberg, Hahn, Diebner, von Laue et al, which just isn't believable.

 

[DWG]

Philip Morrison and Karl Cohen. 31 July 1944. Appraisal of Enemy Bomb Production. [NARA RG 77, Entry UD-22A, Box 168, Folder 203.11—Tech. Countermeasures + RW—1943–1944]

APPRAISAL OF ENEMY BOMB PRODUCTION

Summary

Recent evidence essentially confirms our earlier general statements on enemy bomb production. The reports now at hand lead us to conclude:

1. A German “Y” project has been underway since early 1943. <<<< This means electromagnetic separators, as in the Manhattan Project's Y-12 plant.

2. A D2O pile is in operation, but we do not believe that this is on production level. <<<< This means an operational heavy water reactor.

3. It is implied that a separation method is operating at a production level, for it is surely improbable that the enemy will organize a utilization group without something to use.

We include a time schedule, and a technical discuss of the probable means employed.

Enemy production of devices can be as high as:

1. 1 device every 3 months—on the assumption that 30 kg of material are required per device.

2. 1 device every month—on the assumption that 10 kg of material are required per device.

In either case the first completed device could be in enemy hands now.

Mirror-imaging, it's a thing intelligence analysts are notorious for.

 

[williamjpellas]

Mirror-imaging, it's a thing intelligence analysts are notorious for.

What are you talking about? Where is your evidence for this assertion regarding this particular document? Did you happen to read who it was that wrote the report you so casually dismiss?

 

[Justo Miranda]

... is the existence of a concept we call "bullshit." After the war, all these scientists and engineers were interviewed by the US and UK and France; the smarter ones - pretty much all of them - knew that their best bets would be to get hired by the *western* allies. Germany would have no use for rocket scientists, and getting snagged by the Soviets would be *bad.* So it was in all their interests to inflate their resumes when talking to, say, the US Army. Look at von Braun: there were no German plans for orbital rockets, certainly none for space stations or lunar missions. But the man could think on his feet and convinced the US that he *had* worked on just such rockets. Darn it, all the papers were lost, so, shucks, you'll just have to hire me and my pals to recreate it. He was so good at running a line of BS that he ended up in charge of the US rocket effort and in the process erased the more forward-looking native US program in favor of his own more conservative V-2-tech-based program.

By the early 1940s, the promise of atomic power was no secret, no mystery. Everyone in German aeronautics doubtless had ideas about atomic powered everything, though there was no actual engineering. Just as today we can all say "a starship with an antimatter rocket" or even "a high-C vehicle using vacuum point energy," though none of us would be able to do anything more than doodle.

Amazing Astounding Astonishing Developments in the field of atomic propulsion designed in the early 1940's? You'll need more than an offhand comment. And with the rise of photorealistic fake AI constructs, you'll now need more than *photos* of Nazi atomic aircraft.

The most fascinating thing about science fiction is that at its best it acts as a long-range radar for science. He predicted the existence of the atom, of infinite worlds similar to ours, and of unknown continents across the sea TWO THOUSAND FOUR HUNDRED YEARS AGO, simply because it seemed the most logical thing to these ancient fabulists.

 

[Dilandu]

What are you talking about? Where is your evidence for this assertion regarding this particular document? Did you happen to read who it was that wrote the report you so casually dismiss?

It's rather well-known fact, that Allied intelligence overestimated greatly the scope of German nuclear research, assuming that the utter lack of direct mentions of it means "absolute security" - while in reality it meant "almost nothing was done".

 

[DWG]

However the Reichspost was certainly not the "B team". This is overwhelmingly established by numerous primary sources. The Reichspost and its in house superlab were among the most important entities in the overall German nuclear weapons program.

It lacked the critical theoretical science resources of Heisenberg and Hahn, so B team. If anything the Reichspostministerium programme is an example of the destructive splintering of German industrial capability into competing powerbases that was such a feature of the Nazi regime.

 

[williamjpellas]

There's plenty of documentary evidence the Germans did not have a successful nuclear programme, starting with the Farm Hall Transcripts which show that if they did they kept it secret from Heisenberg, Hahn, Diebner, von Laue et al, which just isn't believable.

Wrong, wrong, totally and completely wrong.

Heisenberg knew quite well in 1942 what the bomb core in a completed uranium fueled weapon would look like. Soviet intelligence recorded him telling a gathering of German scientific, industrial, and military leaders during a conference at Harnack Haus that it would be "about the size of a pineapple". It's in this nearly 20 year old article:

https://physicsworld.com/a/new-light-on-hitlers-bomb/

Diebner told Heisenberg very early on in their captivity that he suspected that Farm Hall was bugged. You don't think this had any effect on how the imprisoned German scientists conducted their conversations, do you? Diebner was probably the top nuclear weaponeer in the German Army Weapons Bureau and he was personally involved in a pair of test detonations near Ohrdruf in March 1945. Soviet intelligence reported that around 700 people were killed in these explosions, most of them concentration camp inmates from Buechenwald who had been deliberately placed in harm's way.

By the way, only about 10% of the Farm Hall recordings survived to come down to us in the present day. The rest were destroyed one way or another.

 

[Justo Miranda]

It would not be fair to think that German scientists knew all about the advanced technologies developed during the war. Safety in these matters was so unforgiving that Lippisch had to design the DFS 194 (in 1937) without having seen the R I 203 rocket engine that was to propel it. The German nuclear scientists who were imprisoned in England were shocked when they heard what had happened in Hiroshima. Surely they exaggerated their abilities to get a good job but they all had secrets that they kept until their deaths, possibly things related to slave laborers, but what interests me is not what they said, but what they kept silent.

 

[DWG]

Mirror-imaging, it's a thing intelligence analysts are notorious for.

What are you talking about? Where is your evidence for this assertion regarding this particular document?

" It is implied that a separation method is operating at a production level, for it is surely improbable that the enemy will organize a utilization group without something to use."

They're arguing the existence of an enrichment programme because a "utilization group" exists, not because they have any direct evidence. There's plenty of potential for working out the potential uses of something you don't have yet, but think you know the parameters of, so the logic here boils down to "well I wouldn't do it that way, so they probably didn't".

"Enemy production of devices can be as high as:

1. 1 device every 3 months—on the assumption that 30 kg of material are required per device.

2. 1 device every month—on the assumption that 10 kg of material are required per device."

They've now assigned this putative enrichment programme an output of 10kg a month, from no evidence. If there was direct evidence they wouldn't need to argue back from the existence of the "utilization group".

"In either case the first completed device could be in enemy hands now."

They have a putative start date, a putative production rate, and that tells them the Germans could now have a weapon. The only way to get there from the putative 'evidence' is by assuming the Germans are doing it exactly the way the Allies did. "It took us X months, therefore it could take the Germans X months".

They're mirror-imaging.

 

[Scott Kenny]

There's plenty of documentary evidence the Germans did not have a successful nuclear programme, starting with the Farm Hall Transcripts which show that if they did they kept it secret from Heisenberg, Hahn, Diebner, von Laue et al, which just isn't believable.
Wrong, wrong, totally and completely wrong.

Heisenberg knew quite well in 1942 what the bomb core in a completed uranium fueled weapon would look like. Soviet intelligence recorded him telling a gathering of German scientific, industrial, and military leaders during a conference at Harnack Haus that it would be "about the size of a pineapple". It's in this nearly 20 year old article:

https://physicsworld.com/a/new-light-on-hitlers-bomb/

Diebner told Heisenberg very early on in their captivity that he suspected that Farm Hall was bugged. Diebner was probably the top nuclear weaponeer in the German Army Weapons Bureau and he was personally involved in a pair of test detonations near Ohrdruf in March 1945. Soviet intelligence reported that around 700 people were killed in these explosions, most of them concentration camp inmates from Buechenwald who had been deliberately placed in harm's way.

By the way, only about 10% of the Farm Hall recordings survived to come down to us in the present day. The rest were destroyed one way or another.

Citation Needed.

 

[williamjpellas]

It lacked the critical theoretical science resources of Heisenberg and Hahn, so B team. If anything the Reichspostministerium programme is an example of the destructive splintering of German industrial capability into competing powerbases that was such a feature of the Nazi regime.

Wrong again.

The SS and the Reichspost pooled their resources around the midpoint of the war, entirely logical given that Himmler and Ohnesorge got along quite well. Both organizations provided money and materiel to Manfred von Ardenne's private laboratory, which is described extensively in Soviet scientist Pavel Oleynikov's paper, "German Scientists in the Soviet Atomic Program". This paper is cited as one of the sources for Wikipedia's grossly inadequate article on the WWII German nuclear weapons program, which always makes me laugh since the people who wrote that article obviously haven't read Oleynikov.

https://www.nonproliferation.org/wp-content/uploads/npr/72pavel.pdf

Von Ardenne and most of his top lieutenant scientists went over en masse to the Soviets at war's end and largely built the bomb for the USSR from there. Von Ardenne was twice awarded the Stalin Prize for this and other work he did for the Rooskies after the war. Regarding von Ardenne's knowledge of nuclear physics, this man was one of the giants of the 20th century in this field.

Manfred von Ardenne. 1990. Die Erinnerungen. 10th ed. Munich: Herbig. p. 159

"During visits to Dahlem and Lichterfelde in 1941, I had asked Professor Otto Hahn how many grams of pure uranium-235 would be needed to unleash a nuclear chain reaction in an instant. He answered me: “A few kilograms.” In this absolutely confidential conversation, I expressed the opinion that it was technically quite possible to obtain uranium-235 in quantities of a few kilograms with the help of highly sophisticated magnetic mass separators (which we had previously designed and experimentally developed), if large electrical corporations were used for this purpose."

 

[Justo Miranda]

In my opinion, the German nuclear scientists lacked the quantum faith (a “Jewish” science) and the courage to tell the Führer to abandon the manufacture of the V-2 missiles because they had something better... that maybe it could work. What could the Germans have done with two or three van-sized nuclear bombs? ... how to drop them over London or how to approach New York in a submarine? And if they had finally made it... Would they have gotten, the surrender of the Allies or a rain of anthrax? The A-bomb did not have the destructive power of a full fleet of B-29s led by Le May.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Not this crap again.

 

[williamjpellas]

They've now assigned this putative enrichment programme an output of 10kg a month, from no evidence. If there was direct evidence they wouldn't need to argue back from the existence of the "utilization group".

This report itself tells you there is evidence:

"Recent evidence essentially confirms our earlier general statements on enemy bomb production. The reports now at hand lead us to conclude .... "

What reports these were are not specifically shown or described in this document, which is actually a summary rather than a detailed paper. The authors were Manhattan Project nuclear physicists Philip Morrison---who worked personally on the Allied plutonium bomb---and Karl Cohen. Not exactly lightweights.

Meanwhile, how is this for evidence? These are all original primary source documents, either wartime or just past it. You can read them as well as I can.

HQ CIC, USFET, Region Munich IV, Munich Sub-Regional Office, 25 April 1946. Subject: Wilhelm Voss. Declassified 2006 [NARA RG 263, Entry ZZ-18, Box 133, File Voss, Friedrich Wilhelm].

1. Dr. Wilhelm VOSS reported to this office 24 April 1946. Subject was the director of the Skoda Works and Bruenner Waffenwerke in Prague, Czechoslovakia from 1939–1945. Subject claims that he has valuable information on atom bomb research in Germany. He also states that he has information on a new type torpedo which is radar controlled and leave no trace in water.

2. Dr. Wilhelm VOSS was born 1 July 1896 in Rostock, Mecklenburg. [...] He was one of the founders of Reichswerke Hermann Goering and in 1938 became its commercial director. In 1939 VOSS was appointed director of Skoda and Bruenner Waffenwerke by Goering.

3. Subject states that the two men that were responsible for research on the most secret weapons at Skoda were SS Gruppenfuehrer Prof. KAMMLER and his deputy SS Oberfuehrer PURUCKER. On the 10 May 1945 VOSS and PURUCKER were in Schimelitz, fleeing in the direction of the American troops.

>>>> PURUCKER was driving a large civilian car which contained many of the plans on the atom bomb. <<<<

This car plus material fell into the hands of the Russians, and VOSS was separated from PURUCKER. VOSS at present does not know where PURUCKER is located.

4. Subject was held prisoner by the Czechs in the concentration camp Modran. He was released two weeks ago and at present resides in Odelzhausen near Munich. Subject is moving on 25 April 46 to Egern/a, Tegernsee, Seestrasse 68, c/o REINHOLD. CIC in Tegernsee was notified by phone on the 24 April 1946, and VOSS was told to report to CIC Tegernsee immediately on arrival there.

5. VOSS states that the following men know more detailed plans on the atom bomb and other secret weapons.

a. Director Alfred BAUBIN of the staff of KAMMLER. Middle of March BAUBIN was supposed to have still been in Internment Camp Schtehowitz near Prague. He was slated to be returned to his native Austria.

b. Director ENGEL, manager of research laboratory in Pibrams and closely connected with KAMMLER. VOSS believes that ENGEL escaped from Czechoslovakia and might subsequently have become PW in American hands.

c. Members of the Research Group could be found in the secret “Mitteilungsblatt des Ruestungsministeriums.”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edmund Tilley. Brief Operational Report on [censored] and Other Germans and Italians Connected with Project Abstract. 19 August 1947. NARA RG 319, Entry A1-134A, Box 29, Folder Operation Oberjoch:

25. Prof. Dr. NIELS [Walter Nielsch?], now said to be in the United States, was, according to [censored,] concerned with chemical and atomic problems at TUCHELER HEIDE and produced a number of atomic bombs, weighing from 1 to 5 kilograms. NIELS should be traced and questioned in detail.

 

[williamjpellas]

Citation Needed.

Soviet GRU intelligence reports as follows:

General Ivan Ilyichev. 15 November 1944. Intelligence report to General Antonov and Joseph Stalin. Archive of the President of the Russian Federation, 93-81 (45) 37.

Peoples’ Commissariat of Defense of the USSR
Chief Intelligence Department of the Red Army
15 November 1944 Moscow

To the Head of the Red Army General HQ General of the Army, Comrade Antonov

Report:

Our trustworthy source in Germany reports: “The Germans are preparing to conduct tests of a new secret weapon, which has a large destructive power. The test explosion of a bomb of unusual construction is being prepared under highest secrecy in Thuringia. For the preparations of the tests the local residents are supposed to be transported away by an SS detail; the whole operation is reported to be undertaken in strictest secrecy. The explosions are supposed to take place in a wooded area. For that, special roads to the presumptive test site are being created. The bomb to be tested has a diameter of one and a half meters. It consists of several hollow spheres that nest inside each other. It will be brought to the explosion place with a transporter specially constructed for it. It is still unclear when the test is supposed to take place, but the preparations are going at the maximum fastest pace.

CONCLUSION. In the last months our source has reported more and more often about the feverish efforts of the Germans to test ever more powerful weapons and their means of delivery. Probably these experiments lead directly to an attempt of the Germans to actually carry out tests of atom bombs, about whose existence we have only incomplete, scanty information.”

Head of Chief Intelligence Department of the Red Army Lieutenant General Ilyichev

Typed 4 copies

Copy Nr. 1 — Comrade Stalin Nr. 2 — Comrade Molotov Nr. 3 — Comrade Antonov Nr. 4 — into archive

---

General Ivan Ilyichev. 23 March 1945. Intelligence report to General Antonov and Joseph Stalin. Archive of the President of the Russian Federation, 93-81 (45) 37.

Peoples’ Commissariat of Defense of the USSR
Chief Intelligence Department of the Red Army
[2]3 March 1945
Moscow
To the Head of the Red Army General HQ
General of the Army, Comrade Antonov

Report:

Our trustworthy source from Germany reports:

“The Germans have in recent times carried out two large-capacity bomb explosions in Thuringia. The explosions took place in a forest area, under conditions of strictest secrecy. Trees fell at a distance of 500–600 meters from the center of the explosion. Buildings and fortifications specially constructed for the tests have been destroyed.

Prisoners of war who were near the epicenter of the explosion died, often without leaving a trace. Prisoners of war who were in the area beyond the center of the explosion have burns on their face and body, the strength of which depends on their position in relation to the epicenter of the explosion. The tests were carried out in a remote deserted area. The regime of secrecy at the test site was at maximum level. Entrance and exit from the territory are by special pass only. SS soldiers have surrounded the area of tests and interrogated any person approaching the area.

The bomb, supposedly filled with uranium 235 and weighing approximately two tons, was brought to the test site on a specially constructed truck. Dewars of liquid oxygen were delivered together with it. The bomb was permanently guarded by 20 guards with dogs. The bomb explosion was accompanied by a large explosive wave and high temperature. In addition, a massive radioactive effect was observed. The bomb is a sphere with a diameter of 130 cm.

The bomb consists of:
1. High-voltage discharge tube, which is charged by special generators
2. A sphere made of metal uranium 235
3. A delay mechanism
4. Protective casing
5. Explosive substance
6. Detonating mechanism
7. Steel casing
All parts of the bomb fit inside each other.

Initiator or bomb fuse.

Consists of a special tube, which creates fast neutrons. It is charged by special generators, which create high voltage inside the tube. As a result, fast neutrons attack active material.

Active bomb material.

Active bomb material is uranium 235. It represents a sphere with an opening into which an initiator is inserted. Once this is done, the opening is sealed by a cork made of uranium 235.

Protective casing.

The uranium sphere is encased in a protective aluminum casing, which is covered by a layer of cadmium. This significantly slows down thermal neutrons emanating from uranium 235, which can cause premature detonation.

Explosive matter.

After the layer of cadmium it is placed inside explosives that consist of porous TNT saturated with liquid oxygen; TNT is made up of bars of a specially chosen shape. The inner surface of the bars has a spherical curvature, which is the same as that of the external surface of the cadmium layer. Each of the bars is supplied with one detonator or two electrical fuses.

Casing.

TNT is covered by a protective layer made of a light aluminum alloy. A blasting mechanism is attached on top of this casing.

Exterior casing.

An exterior casing of armored steel is installed above the blasting mechanism.

Fairing.

A fairing made of a light alloy can be installed on top of the armored casing for future installation on a rocket of the V-type.

Bomb assembly.

The sphere, which consists of metal uranium, is placed inside a protective casing, which consists of aluminum, covered in a layer of cadmium, so that the opening in the sphere coinciding with the opening is sealed off by a uranium cork. After this the aluminum sphere, covered in cadmium, is sealed off by a cork, on top of which the last bar of TNT is placed. Next, liquid oxygen is pumped through the opening inside a protective casing, which covers the TNT. After this the bomb is ready for deployment.

Bomb ignition.

The bomb ignition is carried out with the help of a high-voltage discharge tube. It forms a flow of neutrons, which attack the active material. When the flow of neutrons impacts upon uranium, element 93 fissions, which speeds up the creation of a chain reaction Next, the detonating mechanism detonates the explosive matter, after which a shock from the explosion of the external layer of TNT mixed with liquid oxygen takes place, which is directed toward the center. This allows the uranium to reach a critical mass.

Ahead of this, before the explosion, the uranium sphere is irradiated with gamma-rays, the energy of which does not exceed 6 million electron volts, which many times increases its explosive qualities.

CONCLUSION.

Without doubt, the Germans are carrying out tests of a bomb of high destructive force. In the event of their successful conclusion and production of such bombs in sufficient quantities, they will have weapons capable of slowing down our advance.

Head of Chief Intelligence Department of the Red Army
Lieutenant General Ilyichev
Typed 4 copies
Copy Nr. 1 — Comrade Stalin
” Nr. 2 — Comrade Molotov
” Nr. 3 — Comrade Antonov
” Nr. 4 — into archive
16 pp.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Not this crap again.

The subject of the Nazi bomb resurfaces again and again with the monotony of a season of the year and it is always necessary to give the same answers.

 

[williamjpellas]

Yes, we should always be mindful of people 1) repeating hearsay as fact and 2) just plain inventing things

Right, which is why I posted primary source documents with a minimum of editorial comments from me.

Meanwhile, the thread was originally asking about nuclear propulsion, which Germany, Japan, and the United States were all working on during the war. It was not me who first mentioned the German bomb project. I responded to those who did.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Soviet GRU intelligence reports as follows:

(deleted for space)

And where are the well marked radioactive craters left by these supposed nuclear tests? You know, where the background radiation is still well above normal and there is/was a crapton of soil fused into radioactive glass aka Trinitite? (That glass should also glow under UV due to the uranium content...)

Nukes aren't like HE bomb tests, William. They leave very long lasting evidence of nuclear explosions.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Not this crap again.

Yup.

 

[Orionblamblam]

The subject of the Nazi bomb resurfaces again and again with the monotony of a season of the year and it is always necessary to give the same answers.

In the words of the great man himself:

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Going back to the original topic and steering clear of the Nazi Atomic bomb stuff, I don't see any reason to pay any credence to this "evidence".

As per DWG:

The full version of the BIOS report being quoted as 'proof' of an atomic powerplant for the P.1073B actually says the guy is a convicted conman and his information is largely worthless. Selective quoting can make documents say the complete opposite of what they really said.

Therefore we can dismiss this as a nothingburger of no significance. Maybe he heard it was going to use an engine without a propeller and guessed it was atomic. It's irrelevant.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

No more discussion of the "Nazi atomic bomb" in this topic please.

 

[Orionblamblam]

It's entirely possible that the guy just presaged the late 40's/50's "atomic everything" craze.

It's also possible he was led on, consciously or unconsciously, by the line of inquiry. The Allies were desperate to know the status of the German atomic program; you don't get the info you want unless you ask. And perhaps he was asked "do you know anything about atomic whatever" often enough that he got the hint: the Allies were interested in atomic power.

If they're interested in something, and you're a con man...

 

[Orionblamblam]

As for von Braun's influence - He was the head of the Army's Ballistic Missile programs, where he produced a Next-Generation V-2 follow-on (Redstone), which flew OK, but was really not practical as a field weapon, and a Notorious Lemon, (Jupiter), which, uniquely among the First Generation Liquid-Fueled ICBMs and IRBMs, utterly failed as a launch vehicle. The Air Force (Atlas, Titan, Thor), and Navy (Polaris) went their own paths.

The history of space is the history of lost opportunities. And before the Rockwell X-33, before the Delta Clipper, before the Shuttle C and recoverable Saturn Vs and Mars missions and NERVA and Dyna Soar and Project Orion, there was the HATV project from 47 or so. A SSTO using a LOX/LH2 engine and Atlas-style balloon tanks. Almost certainly would have failed... but what we would have learned from the effort.

Instead, paved over A-4's.