Merlin-engined Messerschmitt Bf 109 project 1941 - document conundrum

Hi, very interesting story! I´m a native german speaker and I don´t know what that guy is talking about! That is the typical german language of that time and context; even without any typos (even the inevitable typo Rols Royce is included). Today even native speakers have their problems to follow a more complex text which consists of some if-sentences (ob-Sätze; konditional Sätze). I cannot say anything about if it´s a fake or not, but the language is german at its best.
that was my first thought too, language changes and even within a culture views about what is correct usage can differ though I only know this from English. However though I never expected to relate this on a forum of this nature I have one experience that may or may not be relevant here. just post my student days in the early 80s a fellow student who settled in Germany a few years prior and thus had only learnt his German in recent times came to visit and while on a bus were sitting behind two German girls who inevitably he struck up a conversation with. I understood nothing but could see their confusion and put it down to his perhaps unconvincing or unclear usage. But he told me just the opposite these girls thought he was German despite it sounding to me being said with a very strong Lincolnshire accent. They had presumed it seems that he was from north Germany and speaking what they defined as ‘low German’ as a result. As I saw their puzzlement first hand clearly that belief was genuine. So my one lesson from this would be that it Would be very dangerous to make assumptions on 60 odd year old documents that their unusual (to you) style and usage would necessarily be indicators of them being fake. Especially important if one is predispositioned by some form of unconscious doubt about validity in the first place and thus inevitably looking for indicators to support your supposition.
 
Off on a tagent perhaps but could this be an offshoot from the captured spitfire MK V that flew with an MB engine? Some kind of conceptual comparison test?
Again that crossed my mind, I did some illustrative work on this aircraft a few years back indeed the Spitfire Museum are presently giving some exhibition space over to it and it’s history. So I did a bit of research into it and the author of the work rather more. Apart from anecdotal comments about it being a popular aircraft to fly there didn’t seem to be any surviving (maybe others know better) evidence of conclusions from the exercise and specific testing. However the fact that such efforts were made to determine relative merits it seems highly likely to me the opposite happened too. As this aircraft and indeed many other captured Allied aircraft being assessed at that particularly facility were lost to bombing, no doubt destroying much of any accompanying supporting evidence along the way, the lack of such evidence coming to light doesn’t mean necessarily such adaptations didn’t happen or exist or perhaps should we discount that evidence is there but yet to be discovered as this particular document has done.
 
Hi,

They had presumed it seems that he was from north Germany and speaking what they defined as ‘low German’ as a result. As I saw their puzzlement first hand clearly that belief was genuine. So my one lesson from this would be that it Would be very dangerous to make assumptions on 60 odd year old documents that their unusual (to you) style and usage would necessarily be indicators of them being fake. Especially important if one is predispositioned by some form of unconscious doubt about validity in the first place and thus inevitably looking for indicators to support your supposition.

Hey, that's a really cool story, and I can see how such a misunderstanding might happen! Low German is in fact a lot closer to English than High German is, and that includes some prominent pronounciation aspects, such as "st" sounding like in English, and not like "sht" as in High German.

The style of the document really is engineer-esque, and I don't think age has anything to do with it. Messerschmitt was being brief and exact at the same time, and created a statement that one normally wouldn't have.

There are three odd aspects, which I can try to re-create in English to convey the matter:

I) "Installation is made smaller according to the size of the high-temperature radiator" - Here one would expect a phrase like "A smaller radiator is installed". However, Messerschmitt was thinking of the entire installation including inlets and ducts, so he used "installation" as main anchor for the reference, leaving German readers to think, "installation of what?"

II) In the same sentence, Messerschmitt has dropped an "and" between the two points of the listing. "Installation is made smaller according to the size of the high-temperature radiator, [and] perhaps one radiator becomes redundant". In combination with the open question "installation of what?", the omission of the "and" makes the sentence truly confusing on first reading.

III) Points 1 - 3 are properly grammatrically coherent to the introductory sentence, "I don't have any objections against this test, but ask you to establish a.s.a.p.", and you can see from them all starting with 'ob' (="whether"). Points 4 - 6 drop this coherence, which can be taken as a true grammatical error.

As German sentences can be long-ish, someone confused by I) and II) might want to check whether there's useful additional text at the end of the list, but due to III), this also doesn't improve clarity.

However, once one gets over the initial confusion (which I certainly was subject to, too), it all makes sense, and the grammatical shortcomings are really very minor.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
Off on a tagent perhaps but could this be an offshoot from the captured spitfire MK V that flew with an MB engine? Some kind of conceptual comparison test?
Yes, it was done specifically to evaluate the performance of the DB engine when coupled to the Spitfire's radiators. These were just as effective but, thanks to the Meredith effect, had no more than half the drag of the DB type and in some situations could actually contribute a little thrust.
A captured Spitfire had been sent to DB for fitting with a 601 in the spring of 1941, but they had found the conversion work too difficult. That timing syncs nicely with the Merlin-in-a-109 discussion; the whole point of the tests was to compare radiators on the same engine, it didn't matter which engine or plane.
Come 1942, and they tried again with a Spitfire V and a DB 605. Among other things they had to replace the entire 12 V electrical system with German standard 24 V (Makes me wonder what the Hispano Buchon, the postwar Merlin-engined Me 109, used). The Spit's firewall proved a good match to the Bf 110 engine nacelle, which is perhaps why it was easier to do it this way round.
A few flights soon proved the superiority of the Spit's radiators. With that done, the programme ended and the German authorities belaboured their engine industry with renewed vigour.
Ironically, the Meredith effect is essentially an external-combustion ramjet, yet it was the Germans who were ahead in overt ramjet technology.
 
Thanks for that, you teach and I learn.

Something that I think may have had a part in the radiator performance is the (IIRC) outlet of the radiators being through the flaps on the 109 (T variant only?), increasing stability at lower speeds. The small wing giving speed and less drag but reducing low speed lift and handling balance. The radiator installation between differing Spitfire marks may also affect things. The earlier marks had a radiator under one wing and an oil cooler on the other. This may have affected balance of Spitfire marks thus equiped but no real reason but gut feeling.
 
Sorry dear sir, but I did not understand your reply. I understood that I blasphemed, to my knowledge it is not taboo to debate in all democracy of some things, is it not there, the object of this forum, but for the goodness I will accede to your request not to touch the sensitive nerves.In all courtesy.
 
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Speaking of the Spitfire, is it true that in terms of its configuration, it is a smaller copy of the Heinkel 70, knowing that in order to have the Kestrel engines an agreement was reached between the RLM and the British authorities about a Heinkel 70?
That is both off-topic and off the deep end. You have come across a load of utter rubbish. No more on this here, please. If you find or start an appropriate topic, drop me a line and I'll tell it at least a bit more like it was.
 
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Given that manufacturers like Dewoitine had a proposal for a Merlin in a D520 and IAR tested a DB 601 in an IAR 80, the suggestion that the 109 be fitted with a Merlin wouldnt have been out of place. Most of the manufacturers trialled all sorts of engines in their airframes and several field modifications like the Morko Morane suggests that it was considered or even done at unit level.
 
With Enemy Core​



The lack of the right engines in the international market during the World War Two, caused the appearance of many different prototypes of hybrid fighters. Engines and airplanes of both bands were exchanged with experimental purposes.

In 1938 the Yugoslavian Government acquired 24 Hawker Hurricane fighters, together with the manufacturing licence to allow production of another 100 units in the factories of Zmaj and Rogozarski. However, by the time of German onslaught on April 1941, only 20 Hurricanes had been delivered to the Royal Yugoslav Air Force. When entering the war, the British Government suspended the exports of Merlin engines, required for their own defence.

As an alternative, the engineers Ilic and Sivcev of the Ikarus-Zemun factory, experimentally installed the German Daimler Benz DB 601A engine in one of the Hurricane IK-Z of local manufacturing. New engine bearers had to be built for the transformation, as well as a redesign of the electrical and cooling systems.

The new machine was named LVT-1 (Lovac Vazduhoplovno Tehnichi-1) and flight tested by the captain pilot Milos Bajagic in the Summer of 1940, proving better take-off performance and climb rate that either the Hurricane Mk.I of the Bf 109 E.3

The Ikarus LVT-1 "Hurrischmitt" was a bit faster than the Hurricane IK-Z although not as much as the Bf 109 E.3.


By early 1941, several proposals were made for the installation of alternative power plants in the Hawker Hurricane Mk.II, to alleviate possible shortages of Merlin Engines. The Rolls-Royce Griffon IIA, Napier Dagger and Bristol Hercules engines were considered.

Britain had provided the Soviet Union a total of 2,952 Hurricanes and there were strong rumours that at least one of them was powered by one 1,250 hp Shvetsov ASh-82 radial engine and armed with two 20 mm ShVAK cannons and four 0.5 in UBT machine guns.

By early 1942 a 1,200 hp Jumo 211 in-line engine from a Savoia Marchetti S.M. 79B bomber was mounted into the I.A.R. 80 c/n 111 Romanian fighter, but during flight tests the aircraft experimented destructive vibration problems and the experiments were discontinued.
At the end of 1943 a DB 601 Aa from Bf 109 E-3 was installed in the I.A.R. 80 c/n 13, performing some test flights.

On 29 June 1943, the I.A.R. 81C c/n 326 was fitted with a 1,475 hp DB 605A engine on an experimental basis.

By mid-1942 a number of Curtiss P-40E that had been provided to the Soviets, under the Lend-Lease arrangements, were re-engined with one 1,100 hp Klimov M-105 engine and pressed into service with several Aviation Regiments.

On April 1942, one Rogozarsky IK-3 prototype was converted from H.S.12Y-29 to a Daimler Benz DB 601 engine.

On 18 November 1942, the Spitfire Mk Vb (EN 830) of the 131st Sqn of the RAF was captured virtually intact by the Germans, after a forced landing in France. It was sent for experimentation purposes to the Daimler Benz test centre of Echterdingen, south of Stuggart, in 1943. One DB 605 A-1, with new engine support, was installed. To that purpose, fuel and oil tanks and new refrigeration system had to be redesigned the electrical system and starter were also changed into a 24 V.

The propeller was a standard VDM with a diameter of 3 meters. The conversion was completed at the Sindelfingen factory with the installation of one Bf 110G engine cowling with the carburettor scoop from a Bf 109 G. The "Spitschmitt" received the radio code letters CJ+ZY performing its comparative
flight tests against a Bf 109 G in the Rechlin test center. It proved its superiority on both visibility and handling on the ground as well as in the climb rate, compared to the standard Bf 109 G. The maximum speed was also estimated above 11,000 feet, but the maximum power of the engine could not be tested, due to deficiencies in the air coolant system.

The Spanish Government ordered the modification of the Bf 109 E-3 (6-119) in 1942 replacing the engine by one 1,300 hp Hispano Suiza H.S.12-Z89. The prototype, named H.A.1109 J1, was flight tested in Muntadas-Barcelona by Lt. Lacour in October 1942, revealing problems of overheating. By the beginning of 1945, one H.S.12-Z89 was installed in the Bf 109 G-2 airframe imported from Germany. The new model was named H.A.1109 J1L, flying for the first time with a three-bladed Hamilton Standard propeller on 2 March 1945, without solving the engine overheating problem.

In 1951, it was decided to replace the engine by the H.S.12-Z17 variant, considered more secure. The new H.A.1109 K version was equipped with a three-bladed de Havilland PD-63 propeller and went into service for the Ejercito del Aire in a number of 30 units. Other Bf 109 G-2 were converted into the H.A.1112 M by installing the British R.R. Merlin 500/45 engines with four-bladed Rotol R-116 propellers from the summer of 1953.

None of these transformations (profoundly disgusting for Willy Messerschmitt) produced any satisfactory result.
In Finland, forty-one ex-French fighters Morane-Saulnier M.S.406 were re-engined, in June 1944, as Mörkö Moraani (525 kph) with one 1,100 hp Klimov (Hispano-Suiza) M-105 P driving one VISh-61 constant-speed airscrew and armed with one engine-mounted 20 mm MG 151 cannon and two wing-mounted 7.7 mm (belt feed) Browning machine guns.

In 1946, one Focke-Wulf Fw 190 F-8 was re-engined with one 1,250 hp Shvetsov ASh-82 radial engine in the LII VVS (Soviet Air Force Test Flying Institute) and kept in flight condition until 1951.
 

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Hi Justo,

None of these transformations (profoundly disgusting for Willy Messerschmitt)

Was that really the case? Messerschmitt was quite critical of Daimler Benz at times, I'm not sure why he shouldn't have welcomed alternative powerplants.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
Hi Justo,

None of these transformations (profoundly disgusting for Willy Messerschmitt)

Was that really the case? Messerschmitt was quite critical of Daimler Benz at times, I'm not sure why he shouldn't have welcomed alternative powerplants.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
This happened during some of his visits to Spain, it was only an aesthetic issue, but the anecdote is true.
 
Hi Justo,

This happened during some of his visits to Spain, it was only an aesthetic issue, but the anecdote is true.

Sounds fascinating! Where did you find this anecdote?

I heard one about Messerschmitt and the Spanish 109s in which he commented on the Hispano wing cannon mountings with words to the effect, "If something goes wrong with these, don't sue me!" Unfortunately, this was related to me with no source given.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
I have always believed that WM opposed the fitment of cannons inside the wing, as he considered that it weakened the spar, but that he was over ruled and told to make them fit but managed to get them out for the F series and most of the Gs. One would wonder why they never considered a 13mm fit for the wings.
 
Tangential, the discussion of translation 'issues' reminded me unhappily of porting chemical synthesis recipes at Uni. These were 'classic' 'High German' printed in 'Gothic Fraktur'. Each came as three (3) sentences. One was the intro, sorta 'TL-DR'. The second sentence contained the recipe. The entire recipe. All of it. Multi-stage, clean-up, the whole nine yards. With all the mega-verbs etc piled up at the end. Line after line after line of hyper-agglutinated, un-hyphenated monsters. The third was the brief summary and credits. This was long before 'Sudoku', but disentangling that middle section was like tackling an over-sized 'Cryptic' grid. We joked that it could take longer to comb such recipes into usable form than actually do them...

I already loathed what we'd now term 'Reverse Polish' coding, thanks to 'School Latin'. It would come back to haunt me when I later tried to learn so-nimble FORTH to supplement my zoo of BASIC dialects...
 
I'm very intrigued by a Merlin 109 that's not a Buchon.

In 1946, one Focke-Wulf Fw 190 F-8 was re-engined with one 1,250 hp Shvetsov ASh-82 radial engine in the LII VVS (Soviet Air Force Test Flying Institute) and kept in flight condition until 1951.​
And now we have full-scale flying FW-190A-8/Ns with ASh-82s up front, and that's how most people have experienced a flying 190!
 
For what it's worth the Bf109 prototype used a Rolls-Royce Kestrel engine because the intended engines were not ready. As a slight derail according to Wikipedia the Germans traded an He70 for four Kestrels. Rolls-Royce used the aircraft to test engines, one of which was the prototype Rolls-Royce Merlin.
Brits prob stole the Heinkel pioneered wing design to put on the ****fire.
 
This reminds me of a recent debate on www.forgottenweapons.com with the site host (Ian McCollum) and viewers spectulating long and loud about a rifle with an obscure modification. The rifle was marked as belonging to an upper crust boys' school. I ended the debate by citing a similar modification (hundreds of rifles converted) by the Royal Canadian Army Cadets during the 1960s.
All we can conclude from this long-winded debate is that Willy Messerschmitt thought briefly about installing a Merlin in an Me 109, but it never got to cutting metal. This flash of an idea meshes well with Messerschmitt's awkward relationship with DB.
I've seen the debate you are referring to in this post and you didn't end it but merely instigate more
 
Brits prob stole the Heinkel pioneered wing design to put on the ****fire.

That has already been trolled in this thread and remains as much nonsense now as it was then.
 
Off on a tagent perhaps but could this be an offshoot from the captured spitfire MK V that flew with an MB engine? Some kind of conceptual comparison test?
Yes, it was done specifically to evaluate the performance of the DB engine when coupled to the Spitfire's radiators. These were just as effective but, thanks to the Meredith effect, had no more than half the drag of the DB type and in some situations could actually contribute a little thrust.
A captured Spitfire had been sent to DB for fitting with a 601 in the spring of 1941, but they had found the conversion work too difficult. That timing syncs nicely with the Merlin-in-a-109 discussion; the whole point of the tests was to compare radiators on the same engine, it didn't matter which engine or plane.
Come 1942, and they tried again with a Spitfire V and a DB 605. Among other things they had to replace the entire 12 V electrical system with German standard 24 V (Makes me wonder what the Hispano Buchon, the postwar Merlin-engined Me 109, used). The Spit's firewall proved a good match to the Bf 110 engine nacelle, which is perhaps why it was easier to do it this way round.
A few flights soon proved the superiority of the Spit's radiators. With that done, the programme ended and the German authorities belaboured their engine industry with renewed vigour.
Ironically, the Meredith effect is essentially an external-combustion ramjet, yet it was the Germans who were ahead in overt ramjet technology.
No the flights proved the superiority of the DB motor
 
No the flights proved the superiority of the DB motor
At high altitude yes. The Mk VB's Merlin 45 had a single-stage, single-speed supercharger, which gave it superior performance at sea level but inferior at high altitude. The comparative tests confirmed this, no surprises there for anybody.
But that was not the point of the German comparison. Contemporary documents show clearly that it was to evaluate the Spitfire's radiator in comparison to that of the Bf 109. It performed much the same, despite being only half the size and hence with lower drag. In fact neither installation was particularly good, as North American was busy showing everybody how radiators should be installed, with their P-51D Mustang. All is revealed in our Calum Douglas' instant classic "The Secret Horsepower Race", see https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...m-douglas-and-piston-engine-discussion.32359/
 
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