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McDonnell Douglas Model 210 STOL

Mark Nankivil

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Greetings All -

The Model 210 STOL was an evolutionary development of the Breguet 941 (and the later 941S which McDonnell obtained a license agreement for what McDonnell called the Model 188E. Readily available info on the Br941 is rather thin but this FAA Special Conditions directive notes the use of differential propeller pitch for directional control:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgSC.nsf/0/7C2C51FBB1F113E886256E510070B825?OpenDocument

The model 210E was developed parallel with Breguet's development of their Model 942 proposal. In the end, the turboprop designs went nowhere as the proposed STOL ports in the U.S. did not materialize for various reasons. The results of all this work were rolled into the AMST program and led to the YC-15 and later C-17 programs.

Sorry for the marginal image quality - the paper used for the report was heavily textured.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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Stargazer2006

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Thanks. But I would disagree with the sentence that
Readily available info on the Br941 is rather thin
. The Breguet Br 941 and its ancestors and many projected derivative are very well covered in available literature, including on-line.
 

Mark Nankivil

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Hi Stargazer -

I was thinking about more detailed design analysis, not necessarily the overall view laid out by Wikepedia and the like. Poor wording on my part...

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

gtg947h

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MDD 4-turboprop airliner?

Saw this posted over at airliners.net... any info? Reportedly found in an antique shop.

 

hesham

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Re: MDD 4-turboprop airliner?

Hi,

it is the McDonnell Douglas Model-210 which was developed
from Model-188,also the Model-188 was based on Breguet
Br.941.
It was powered by four 3300 hp General Electric T-64
turboprop engines,and it had two variants,type E was
shorter and the type G.
 

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Stargazer2006

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Re: MDD 4-turboprop airliner?

hesham said:
the Model-188 was based on Breguet Br.941.
No, the McDonnell 188 WAS a Breguet Br.941 demonstrator in U.S. guise, nothing more.

As for the Model 210, the same painting has been posted on this very forum, as well as several graphics of the E and G configurations mentioned by hesham. I'm sure you will find them if you use the search engine.
 

Stargazer2006

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I wish to emphasize that I am in no way the "Stargazer" that posted above. It is actually because there already existed one here that I kept the "2006" next to my pseudonym.
 

Mark Nankivil

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Re: MDD 4-turboprop airliner?

Now that is something I'd like to find in an antique shop!

Thanks! Mark
 

Jemiba

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The story of the Br.941 with its ancestors and successors and the US derivatives
is covered in Jeans Cuny "Les Avions Breguet", Docavia on about 20 pages.
Don't know, if that is, what you're looking for, but it certainly has more information,
than wiki .
 

Triton

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gtg947h said:
Saw this posted over at airliners.net... any info? Reportedly found in an antique shop.
Artist's impression of McDonnell Douglas Model 210.

Source:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5019052/
 

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Mark Nankivil

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Greetings All -

A recent find, this appears to be somewhere between the Model 188 and the Model 210.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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Stargazer2006

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Splendid! Makes you wonder if any among today's artists, who have grown up with CGI and graphic softwares, could still paint such marvels nowadays.
 

Antonio

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Splendid! Makes you wonder if any among today's artists, who have grown up with CGI and graphic softwares, could still paint such marvels nowadays.
Maybe in a few years ::)
 

Mark Nankivil

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What's interesting to me is that the landscape is the St. Louis riverfront looking east prior to the Arch being built - completed in October of 1965. If the artwork was done in 1969 as the print was stamped, that strikes me as odd not to capture the landscape as is.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 
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joncarrfarrelly

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Mark Nankivil said:
Greetings All -

A recent find, this appears to be somewhere between the Model 188 and the Model 210.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
That matches with the description of the 188E in Francillon's Mc Donnell-Douglas Putnam.
 

blackkite

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From Japanese wikipedia.
YS-11S (YS-11-4) was a short-take-off-and-landing type of YS-11.
This airplane carried four engines and the tail stabilizers were largely modified.
The range of this airplane was 900 km, and taking off and landing was possible for the runway of a 600-m class.
This airplane was planned in order to bid for the international competitive bidding(1970) of the STOL passenger plane used for the short distance city suburbs route of American Airlines.
The contents of a bid of international competitive bidding are as follows.
- The commuter airplane of 47 or more seats.
- No development costs.
- The purchase number of the aircraft were 20 to 300.
The makers which were chosen as the candidate were as follows
- NAMC (Nihon Aircraft Manufacturing Corporation) http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,20041.msg195610.html#msg195610
-Hawker Siddeley
- Convair
-De Havilland Canada
- Mcdonnell Douglas
This one? MD 188(Br.941) MD 188E MD 210E/G?
What is the meaning of 188, 210, E and G?
 

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blackkite

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I think that De Havilland Canada's proposal was DHC-7.
 

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blackkite

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Hawker Siddeley's proposal? The range was too long ?
Hawker Siddeley conversion of the Armstrong Whitworth A.W.650 Argosy 100 transport.
http://www.aviastar.org/air/england/hawker_argosy.php

Or H.S.146?
In August 1973, Hawker Siddeley launched a new 70 seat regional airliner project, the HS.146, to fill the gap between turboprop-powered airliners like the Hawker Siddeley HS.748 and the Fokker F.27 and small jet airliners like the BAC One-Eleven and Boeing 737. The chosen configuration had a high wing and a T-tail to give good short-field performance, while the aircraft was to be powered by four Avco Lycoming ALF 502s turbofan engines. The programme was initially launched with backing from the UK Government, who agreed to contribute 50% of the development costs in return for a share of the revenues from each aircraft sold. In October 1974, all work on the project was halted as a result of the world economic downturn resulting from the 1973 oil crisis.(Wikipedia)
 

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blackkite

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Honestry speaking, I can't find any realistic Convair proposal. Someone please find it. :)

Sorry cruising speed of CV580 is 546km/h.

http://www.hermantheduck.org/pages/aircraft%20section%20pages/cv580.html
 

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starviking

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blackkite said:
Honestry speaking, I can't find any realistic Convair proposal. Someone please find it. :)

Sorry cruising speed of CV580 is 546km/h.
Blackkite,
Is that your table of information on the possible STOL contenders? If so, you should label it - or someone might think it is an actual document of contenders.
 

starviking

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I searched the Flight Archive for the issue with the article on the Fokker-VFW design to American Airlines' STOL requirement, and the article continues with information on other compeditors as of 1971:

"The project was considered too small by American Airlines, who are now evaluating the DHC-7, the McDonnell Douglas 188F, the Canadair CL-246 variable-incidence aircraft and the Grumman 487C, which is based on the Shin Meiwa PX-S Stol flying boat. However, Fokker-VFW hopes to stimulate interest and define airline requirements with its announcement of the P.301 project."

http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1971/1971%20-%200683.PDF

Now Canadair was a subsidiary of Convair - so we can assume that this is the Convair proposal. More info here:http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,13862.0.html

The Grumman Project has a little bit of information at the bottom of the Wikipedia ShinMeiwa page:

"There were at least two PS-1 spin-offs. These (landplane) designs were Design #487 and Design #487C, part of a joint program of the 1970s with Grumman. Design #487 was aimed at a US Military STOL transport requirement, while Design #487C was a 90 seat commercial STOL airliner version aimed in particular at American Airlines."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ShinMaywa

Hawker Siddley's 146 seems too late for the competion - launching in 1973. Possibly a variant of the HS748, or a STOL version of the 141 or a 146 predecessor might fit the bill. Alternatively, DHC was a HS subsidiary - so the DHC-7 might be being counted twice.
 

blackkite

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starviking said:
blackkite said:
Honestry speaking, I can't find any realistic Convair proposal. Someone please find it. :)

Sorry cruising speed of CV580 is 546km/h.
Blackkite,
Is that your table of information on the possible STOL contenders? If so, you should label it - or someone might think it is an actual document of contenders.
Hi starviking-san! I forget to tell you that this table is only my guess for American Airlines STOL liner proposals. Sorry about it.
 

blackkite

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starviking said:
I searched the Flight Archive for the issue with the article on the Fokker-VFW design to American Airlines' STOL requirement, and the article continues with information on other compeditors as of 1971:

"The project was considered too small by American Airlines, who are now evaluating the DHC-7, the McDonnell Douglas 188F, the Canadair CL-246 variable-incidence aircraft and the Grumman 487C, which is based on the Shin Meiwa PX-S Stol flying boat. However, Fokker-VFW hopes to stimulate interest and define airline requirements with its announcement of the P.301 project."

http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1971/1971%20-%200683.PDF

Now Canadair was a subsidiary of Convair - so we can assume that this is the Convair proposal. More info here:http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,13862.0.html

The Grumman Project has a little bit of information at the bottom of the Wikipedia ShinMeiwa page:

"There were at least two PS-1 spin-offs. These (landplane) designs were Design #487 and Design #487C, part of a joint program of the 1970s with Grumman. Design #487 was aimed at a US Military STOL transport requirement, while Design #487C was a 90 seat commercial STOL airliner version aimed in particular at American Airlines."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ShinMaywa

Hawker Siddley's 146 seems too late for the competion - launching in 1973. Possibly a variant of the HS748, or a STOL version of the 141 or a 146 predecessor might fit the bill. Alternatively, DHC was a HS subsidiary - so the DHC-7 might be being counted twice.
Many thanks for very exciting information. Interesting!!
"The project was considered too small by American Airlines, who are now evaluating the DHC-7,..."
I think that Fokker-VFW design was not so small compared with DHC-7. ??? Please check my table.
 

starviking

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blackkite said:
starviking said:
blackkite said:
Honestry speaking, I can't find any realistic Convair proposal. Someone please find it. :)

Sorry cruising speed of CV580 is 546km/h.
Blackkite,
Is that your table of information on the possible STOL contenders? If so, you should label it - or someone might think it is an actual document of contenders.
Hi starviking-san! I forget to tell you that this table is only my guess for American Airlines STOL liner proposals. Sorry about it.
No problem, but you should edit your post to say that.
It's a nice table, by the way.
 

blackkite

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Therefore, YS-11 plan with four engine would be defeated in the early stage of the competition.

Attached image is from flight international in1971.
And http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft21548.htm
CL-246 was a tilt wing STOL transport. :eek:

CUTAWAY http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AE/AE72-1/14-1.jpg
Jens's drawing is little radical?

Our next target is Grumman/Shinmaywa Design #487C and Hawker Siddeley's proposal. ;)
 

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Stargazer2006

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Very interesting stuff. Perhaps this discussion on the STOL competition could become a separate topic? Just a thought.
 

blackkite

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Hmmm...... Perhaps Model 210 was not a proposal for American Airline's STOL request. What was Model 210? Early proposal?
 

blackkite

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Hi! Grumman/Shinmaywa design #487 looks like this one?
Of course fuselage needed large modification to convert into land base STOL transport.
I believe that 487 had the BLC system and outstanding STOL performance.
Shinmaywa US-1A General characteristicsPerformance
 

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blackkite

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I'm sorry.
Moreover, it slid off. ;D
 

blackkite

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Hi!

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=8zl09uULN8IC&pg=PA14&lpg=PA14&dq=argosy+stol+conversion&source=bl&ots=xYtYkmHmNi&sig=yVqF71tTLbSX0yQP6iU5_i_Lmyw&hl=ja&sa=X&ei=qxcfU9TzAoSckAXo4YC4DA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=argosy%20stol%20conversion&f=false
 

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