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Mario Zippermayr and his work during WWII

mato.dds

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The conical shape inside the ball is probably the "Feuerwirbel"- Fire Whirlwind- mentioned in the biography. It seems like the "Zippermayr bomb" is the first air-fuel bomb in the world. But it is interesting that at today's FAE there is no such phenomenon.
And the "brain-cells destroying weapon" mentioned in one of the American documents I posted here earlier is probably the Schallkanone, that was to be developed at Lofer, in a facility called "Hochtal". Zippermayr was a direcor of the "Talstation" facility that was also near Lofer.
 

viro

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Its a shame this topic died. Is there enyone who have some more documentation, and am i the only one who cant see the picture posted?
 

pathology_doc

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Any chance that someone misunderstood the European use of a comma as a decimal point and turned metres into kilometres? Or are kilometres specifically mentioned?


(Edited to fix a typo)
 

RanulfC

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viro said:
Its a shame this topic died. Is there enyone who have some more documentation, and am i the only one who cant see the picture posted?
I suspect the pictures are no longer available since the last post was a bit over a year ago.

From skimming the thread and actually reading some of the various "sources" on the subject, (hell Scott, SOMEONE has to read this drek to see if anything "interesting" is actually in there :) I'm of the opinion that the whole "coal" fuel-air bomb is a serious case of mistaken numbers and rationilizations. I happen to have worked with/on the FAE during my stint in the AF and nothing I learned about how explosives, (and explosions) leads me to believe the effects could have been anywhere near what was "described" given the technices used. FAEs require certain factors to work properly and just releasing a "cloud" and igniting it simply ain't going to work.

pathology_doc said:
Any chance that someone misunderstood the European use of a comma as a decimal point and turned metres into kilometres? Or are kilometres specifically mentioned?
Most materials I've seen "quote" Kilometers but the source material is cited to be recorded (written) reports so I highly suspect that's possible.

Randy
 

viro

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The thing is, I have "seen" the pics he posted, and while the numbers are absolutely ridiculous, this "rumor" was investigated by both BIOS and CIOS and i would love to get the pics back.

And it is possible to make such an explosion. When there is enough oxygen around dust, it will ignite. It have happened in some mils in USA, but with flour instead of coal dust. In Otto Skorzenys book you can read about how they destroyed a Russian city with liquid air rocket for their rocket artillery. A funny read, but not possible:)
 

Orionblamblam

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viro said:
And it is possible to make such an explosion. When there is enough oxygen around dust, it will ignite. It have happened in some mils in USA, but with flour instead of coal dust.
It's easy to make a coal or flour-dust fire. What's needed is to make a coal-dust *detonation.* Short physics lesson: if you throw a handfull of flamable powder into the air towards a lit flame, you will get a nice impressive fireball. This is - or at least was, before society turned completely cowardly - done in many a middle-school chemistry lab. While the fireball is impressive, and might set some stuff on fire, its usefulness as a weapon is *seriously* limited. It is not an "explosion" in any meaningful sense... the flamefront propagation rate is well below the speed of sound. There is no damaging shockwave. And while there's fire, most of the fire it "up there" away from the target, and the bulk of the heat would be transmitted to the target via radiation. In contrast, a napalm attack would spread the fire directly *on* the target, transmitting heat via conduction. This is *vastly* more effective. The same amount of thermal energy in a napalm attack that may convert a human target into a charcoal briquette might, in a coal-dust fire, simply burn off his eyebrows and set his shirt on fire.

Where grain silos become interesting is that they are enclosed volumes that can, however briefly, contain pressure. This means that when the fire starts, the increased air temperature causes the air pressure to increase, and with nowhere for the hot air to go, the air pressure spikes. And as air pressure goes up, the burning rate also goes up, which drives air pressure up... a nice circular death spiral of increasing pressure and burn rate, until the grain silo explodes. This is the same basic process that turns a non-explosive pile of burning black powder into a pipe bomb.

Now if you want to weaponize coal dust, you have to do more than release a cloud and set fire to it. You have to release a cloud and cause it to *detonate.* This can be done, but it takes effort. Basicaly, you need to set off not a match, but a series of initiating high explosives. A *true* high explosive (RDX, frex) will, deployed properly, set up a sharp shock wave that passes through the unburnt cloud of coal. At the shock wave boundary, air pressure can be incredibly high (thousands to millions of psi); this increased air pressure will, as in the case described above, cause the burn rate to be incredibly high. If the air pressure is high enough to drive the coal dust fire burn rate high enough to be supersonic, then the coal dust can be said to be truly detonating, and will add its own energy to the shock wave, and it becomes self-propagating.

To get *really* nasty, your weaponized coal dust bomb needs to set off not one high explosive initiator, but a series of them. Preferably a ring of small bombs around the cloud of dust. Done properly, they will cause the cloud to detonate from the outside inward; in the center where the shockwaves meet you can get some truly astonishing temperatures and pressures. The sort that cause lungs to be ripped out through the mouth and turned inside out and then set on fire.

Gettign the initiator right is, I think, the big challenge with fuel-air explosives.

This sort of weapon is great for "soft" targets - buildings, aircraft, people. Not really very effective against hardened targets like bunkers or tanks.
 

viro

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Thx for that!

But all I want is those pics and some extra info if you got some... But that description was awesome thx
 

lippischh

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Hi folks, here is my artwork about the Pfeil Flugzeug : http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,16995.0/all.html

hope you enjoy

Regards
 

bluedonkey99

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Re: Zippermayr Pfeil (Arrow)

Orionblamblam said:
OK, here's the scan from the Simon book, along with my own attempt at reconstruction. Feel free to point and laugh... there's every reason to see this attempt as crap, especially the top view. There may be some sweepback on the leading edge, but it's hard to be sure.

Obviously the tail is missing, because it's not shown in the available photo.
As much as I'm a sucker for secret German projects - Its not that convincing as a secret jet plane is it - when viewing the clearer image?

The truss work looks more akin to a WWI box frame fuselage (with wire diagonal bracing to be added?) than even a WWII era approach with diagonal truss bracing ?

The "jet pipe" looks more like a section of rounded/feared fuselage - there inst any obvious place for an engine (if the cockpit is to the right of the object)? - which *may* continue forward, but is obscured by the jig.
 

riggerrob

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Fig. 67 looks more like a ground mock-up. As for diagonal bracing ..... the skin carries those loads in a semi-monocoque structure.

That airframe might reach supersonic speeds ..... straight down.

OTOH I highly doubt that that ultra low aspect ratio wing could land at a high angle of attack. Many people have experimented with low aspect ratio wings, but few succeeded. The closest are sharply-swept delta wings on supersonic airplanes. (e.g. Concorde airliner). At high angles of attack, the entire leading edge acts like a huge wing tip generating massive, conical vortexes. Those votexes generate plenty of lift, but also massive amounts of drag. Concorde has to be flown at precise air speeds to avoid getting too deep into the “drag bucket.” .... because it could not power its way out of the drag bucket.
OTOH delta-winged fighters can use after-burners to power their way out of the drag bucket.

Pfeil’s ultra low aspect ratio wing would generate massive amounts of drag, but little lift at high angles of attack.
 

moin1900

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Seems that Zippermayr was not the only one who worked on coal dust / fuel-air / FAE bombs.
Patent Nr / Veröffentlichungsnummer: DE680483
Title: Fliegerbombe für Kohlenstaubexplosionen
Inventor: Kurt von Haken
Year: 06.04.1933
The patent shows a sketch of a coal dust parachute bomb.

https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet?action=einsteiger

https://patents.google.com/patent/DE680483C
 

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