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Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich

elmayerle

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gatoraptor said:
This publication is now available at the Barnes & Nobles in the Atlanta area, one week later than Huntsville. As with the prior issues in this series, more "book" than "zine".
Showed up 'bout the same time in Fort Worth. Since I had already received and read my copy direct from Morton's, I've been hesitant to buy a second copy; I really should, though, just to encourage them.

7-14 Update: I did buy one last night and I will be leaving feedback with B&N, apparently a new feature, conveying my displeasure with their magazine supplier only carrying two of Dan's five (I did get the count right, didn't I?) bookazines for Morton's.
 

moin1900

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About the DVL jet fighter on Page 52-53.
Is there someone who could read / translate the handwritten additions?
Maybe these additions could help to understand the different drawings. Especially the third design looks interesting (swept-forward wing first stage and swept-back second stage).

Maybe Günther Bock was involved?
DVL sketches
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18201.0.html
Günther Bock
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCnther_Bock_(Aeronautiker)
 

steelpillow

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Pasoleati said:
Why did the crews hate the BV 138?
80% because its engines were rubbish. It was underpowered and consequently both speed and handling were poor. They also vibrated a lot, giving rise to endless panel rattling and metal fatigue problems. And their reliability was also poor, with various maintenance difficulties adding to the mess. B&V were allowed to change to a different engine at one point but it was little improvement. Other, better engines were proposed, but were in such demand for more important front-line types that the change was refused.
20% because this was B&V's first real warplane and it had a highly innovative structure. Quite a few teething troubles had to be ironed out, and quite a few others never were. The first prototype was so awful it had to be almost completely redesigned. The first batch were barely serviceable and the second not much better. Any further design iteration was again refused.
Most of its operational activities were actually carried out while officially unfit for service. The planes spent most of their lives queueing up for one retrospective modification after another.
 

Pasoleati

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Underpowered yes, but afaik those Jumo 205s worked ok in the Do 18 and BV 222. What was Junkers's response to criticism on the engines? Any, for some reason I don't know a single English source that would go into appropriately indepth detail onthese issues.
 

steelpillow

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The engines on earlier variants were the Jumo 205C, later variants had the 205D. The 205 demanded skilled specialist maintenance and so I suspect Junkers' response would have been, "Train your engineers properly and RTFM!" And as an afterthought, "The installation could have been done better."
One useful source is William Green's "Warplanes of the Third Reich". There are also some booklets on the BV 138 available.
 

Pasoleati

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I have read (years ago) Green's chapter on it. The only single volune devoted to the 138 that I know of is old Heinz Nowarra booklet from Podzun Pallas (German)/Schiffer (English). The text is very superficial in it.

There's also a chapter on it in Eric Brown's original Wings of the Weird and Wonderful. He did not like its handling.
 

newsdeskdan

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Pasoleati said:
I have read (years ago) Green's chapter on it. The only single volune devoted to the 138 that I know of is old Heinz Nowarra booklet from Podzun Pallas (German)/Schiffer (English). The text is very superficial in it.

There's also a chapter on it in Eric Brown's original Wings of the Weird and Wonderful. He did not like its handling.
p32-33 of Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich explains. In fact, that whole chapter is based on the August 1943 E-Stelle Travemunde report 'Chronik des See-Fernaufklarers von 1933 bis zum heutigen Tage'. And the report itself is largely devoted to the BV 138's problems and shortcomings in great detail. I had assumed that crews loved their BV 138s. Nowarra says so (p46 of his BV 138 book): "Even in the most difficult of circumstances they [the BV 138] never failed their crews and served faithfully up until the last day of the war."
But the contemporary Travemunde report paints a rather different picture. It says (forgive my translation): "Of course, due to all the shortcomings and their consequences, the crews' confidence in their aircraft sank again and again. The difficult power setting of the engines in the flight is among the other deficiencies. Flight on two engines was criticised and added to this were new demands for a heating and de-icing system for winter use."
Manufacturing defects were blamed for cracks discovered in the wing spars of BV 138 Bs and Cs and the report says crews only "reluctantly" flew their BV 138s, hoping for a new aircraft to replace them.
And the report actually defends the BV 138 against all the criticism coming from the crews (as well as saying that had a proper competitive tendering process been followed, it would probably never have been built). It says: "Despite the fact that it was so much criticised for its appearance and its flaws, it should not be forgotten that the look of the aircraft itself benefited from excellent weapon design and the shortcomings were due to the fact that it was the first aircraft model to go into production at B&V. In a sharp competitive development, this pattern might never have been built.
"Despite being rejected by the crews as a result of its inherent limitations, the BV 138 is used time and time again and has been instrumental in fighting convoys in the North Sea and defending submarines in the Black Sea and is one of the most dependable due to its operating hours template."
I recommend reading the full chapter to get an idea of the many problems encountered during the development of the BV 138. 'Chronik des See-Fernaufklarers von 1933 bis zum heutigen Tage' really is the best account of the BV 138's development I have seen anywhere and if I get around to it I might consider publishing it in full at some point.
 

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steelpillow

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Thanks, Dan, I was struggling to remember where I had read all that material.

I doubt there is a more authoritative account than this, compiled from actual period documents. And it's still available in the magazine section of many branches of WH Smith if you check round.
 

Pasoleati

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Thanks Dan! I will be buying this asap! While at it, have you at Morton's considered shrinkwrapping these bookazines to protect them on the sellers' shelves? I was going to buy this one at a local seller, but then noted that only available copy clear signs of wear and tear induced by careless handling by either the staff or browsing customers.
 

newsdeskdan

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Pasoleati said:
Thanks Dan! I will be buying this asap! While at it, have you at Morton's considered shrinkwrapping these bookazines to protect them on the sellers' shelves? I was going to buy this one at a local seller, but then noted that only available copy clear signs of wear and tear induced by careless handling by either the staff or browsing customers.
Unfortunately, I've no involvement in point of sale. The best option might be to order it direct via the web - then it should be pristine.
 

gatoraptor

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newsdeskdan said:
The best option might be to order it direct via the web - then it should be pristine.
.....Unless the postal service mangles it during shipping!
 

newsdeskdan

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gatoraptor said:
newsdeskdan said:
The best option might be to order it direct via the web - then it should be pristine.
.....Unless the postal service mangles it during shipping!
Always a concern but I've found that more often than not things come through fine.
 

newsdeskdan

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elmayerle said:
gatoraptor said:
This publication is now available at the Barnes & Nobles in the Atlanta area, one week later than Huntsville. As with the prior issues in this series, more "book" than "zine".
Showed up 'bout the same time in Fort Worth. Since I had already received and read my copy direct from Morton's, I've been hesitant to buy a second copy; I really should, though, just to encourage them.

7-14 Update: I did buy one last night and I will be leaving feedback with B&N, apparently a new feature, conveying my displeasure with their magazine supplier only carrying two of Dan's five (I did get the count right, didn't I?) bookazines for Morton's.
Sorry, didn't notice the update! There are, or have been, four Luftwaffe bookazines so far (I can only manage about one a year owing the amount of time it takes to research them):

Luftwaffe: Secret Jets of the Third Reich (2015 and sadly long out of print)
Luftwaffe: Secret Bombers of the Third Reich (2016)
Luftwaffe: Secret Wings of the Third Reich (2017)
Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich (2018)

But if we're talking bookazine for Mortons in general, it's those four plus:

Cold War: Sex, Spies and Nuclear Missiles (2013)
Concorde: Supersonic Speedbird - The Full Story (2013, with Bernard Bale. Just reissued as a revised and updated edition with a new cover)
D-Day: Operation Overlord (2014)
Duelling Above the Trenches: Sopwith Aircraft of the Great War (2014)
Aviation Classics 26: Focke-Wulf Fw 190 (2014, Mortons generally counts issues of AC as bookazines)
Spitfires Over Berlin: The Air War in Europe 1945 (2015)
British Dinosaurs (2015, with Chris Wardle and Tony Carter)
Luftwaffe Fighters (2016, with Claes Sundin)
Allied Fighters (2017, with Claes Sundin)
RAF: Secret Jets of Cold War Britain (2017)

And there's a couple more due out later this year. The only actual hardback book I've done is British Secret Projects 5: Britain's Space Shuttle for Crecy.
 

steelpillow

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Is RAF: Secret Jets of Cold War Britain (2017) still in the newsagents? I'd love to get hold of that one.
 

newsdeskdan

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steelpillow said:
Is RAF: Secret Jets of Cold War Britain (2017) still in the newsagents? I'd love to get hold of that one.
Should be, although I've no idea of availability at individual outlets.
 

steelpillow

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newsdeskdan said:
steelpillow said:
Is RAF: Secret Jets of Cold War Britain (2017) still in the newsagents? I'd love to get hold of that one.
Should be, although I've no idea of availability at individual outlets.
Can't find it locally. Amazon? Good grief! forty-something quid! Less than one-sixth of that, post-free, from Mortons web site. On its way.
 

TsrJoe

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WH. Smith newsagents (Glasgow, Sauchiehall St. and Central Station) have copies still avaliable on the shelf
 

newsdeskdan

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steelpillow said:
That must depend on your local WHS. Neither of the two nearest me do.
Hard to believe it's been 10 months now since RAF: Secret Jets came out. Given the timeframe, it's surprising that any WHS stores are still carrying it - they can just return it unsold if they want - but my understanding is, as Joe says, that some still have it in stock. Bookazines seldom remain at WHS longer than a year though.
 

athpilot

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Hi Dan!

Surfing through the internet, suddenly this image appeared ... and ... wow :eek: B)
Is this real? Is it already published? Wanna have!
Dear mods and Dan if it is not or its leaked or copyrighted or fake, please feel free to delete.

Thanx and Greetings
 

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Geist

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athpilot said:
Hi Dan!

Surfing through the internet, suddenly this image appeared ... and ... wow :eek: B)
Is this real? Is it already published? Wanna have!
Dear mods and Dan if it is not or its leaked or copyrighted or fake, please feel free to delete.

Thanx and Greetings
Yes, it is real :)
 

robertino

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greeting

we have this
1. Luftwaffe: Secret Jets of the Third Reich (2015)
2. Luftwaffe: Secret Bombers of the Third Reich (2016)
3. Luftwaffe: Secret Wings of the Third Reich (2017)
4. Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich (2018)
5. Luftwaffe: Secret Project Profiles (with Daniel Uhr) (2018)
6. Luftwaffe: Secret Projects of the Third Reich (2019)

whether it will be in the plan one big book??
 

newsdeskdan

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robertino said:
greeting

we have this
1. Luftwaffe: Secret Jets of the Third Reich (2015)
2. Luftwaffe: Secret Bombers of the Third Reich (2016)
3. Luftwaffe: Secret Wings of the Third Reich (2017)
4. Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich (2018)
5. Luftwaffe: Secret Project Profiles (with Daniel Uhr) (2018)
6. Luftwaffe: Secret Projects of the Third Reich (2019)

whether it will be in the plan one big book??
Not in one big book, no. My only hardback book to date, British Secret Projects 5: Britain's Space Shuttle, was about 90,000 words and maybe 250 images. It ran to about 260 pages and was 2.4cm thick including the covers.
In comparison, Luftwaffe: Secret Wings was only 132 pages and 7mm thick, including the covers, but with smaller text, smaller images and thinner paper (though still with glossy magazine quality full colour pages throughout) it was able to swallow about 87,000 words and 300 images.
In my view the bookazine format offers the opportunity to include the same quantity of content you would expect to find in a premium hardback edition but for rather less than half the price. Putting them all together into a single book might be possible but only if all the images were shrunk right down and the text was tiny. And I would rather that didn't happen. I dread to think how much the publisher would have to charge for such a monstrous tome!
 

steelpillow

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To be honest, I think that if the material were republished in any other format it should be edited together with a more coherent structure.
I think that if anything, the drawings and text should be bigger: anybody wanting a budget buy should be able to seek out a second-hand bookazine edition (but see below). School text books are often printed as large-size paperbacks, which helps to keep the cost down. For example I have an A4 size, 340 page job of good quality paper and robust binding that comes in at 18 mm ( 3/4 in) thick. The heavier weight cover is also a lot more robust than the thin paper of a bookazine, which is my main gripe with those. I think it's nudging the heavy side, maybe 280-300 pages would be better. That should allow the series to fit in perhaps three volumes, each on a different broad theme.
But when would you ever feel that a given theme was complete enough to warrant such treatment? Until then, keep them bookazines a-comin'!
And I still think that the very first one deserves a second print run, just as it is. It is as impossible to find on the secondhand market as hen's teeth. One recently sold on eBay for £56! This absolutely has to be a time when ethics and profit would go hand-in-hand for Mortons.
 

newsdeskdan

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steelpillow said:
To be honest, I think that if the material were republished in any other format it should be edited together with a more coherent structure.
I think that if anything, the drawings and text should be bigger: anybody wanting a budget buy should be able to seek out a second-hand bookazine edition (but see below). School text books are often printed as large-size paperbacks, which helps to keep the cost down. For example I have an A4 size, 340 page job of good quality paper and robust binding that comes in at 18 mm ( 3/4 in) thick. The heavier weight cover is also a lot more robust than the thin paper of a bookazine, which is my main gripe with those. I think it's nudging the heavy side, maybe 280-300 pages would be better. That should allow the series to fit in perhaps three volumes, each on a different broad theme.
But when would you ever feel that a given theme was complete enough to warrant such treatment? Until then, keep them bookazines a-comin'!
And I still think that the very first one deserves a second print run, just as it is. It is as impossible to find on the secondhand market as hen's teeth. One recently sold on eBay for £56! This absolutely has to be a time when ethics and profit would go hand-in-hand for Mortons.
The record currently stands at £98.70 for a single copy of Luftwaffe: Secret Jets on September 13 last year https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LUFTWAFFE-SECRET-JETS-OF-THE-THIRD-REICH-HITLERS-WONDER-WEAPON-FIGHTER-PROJECTS-/232915113329?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l10137.
That £56 copy seems to have a sticker on it proclaiming 'special edition' but there was only ever one edition, so that's a bit odd. The only really 'rare' one is the single copy I signed, which Mortons sold on eBay.
Again, I don't think a straight reprint of Luftwaffe: Secret Jets is on the cards. I wrote it back in 2014/15 and I've discovered a lot more about German WW2 jet projects since then so some of it is now woefully out of date - like the Flitzer and Huckebein nicknames. At the time I thought they were unlikely to be genuine since they don't appear on the published company project descriptions, but I later found that they DO appear in memos and other documents not meant for anyone outside Focke-Wulf.
I've also subsequently seen the hard copy original drawings of the Heinkel Lerche and Wespe, as opposed to the poor quality microfilm-derived images you see in Luftwaffe: Secret Jets and found out much more about the 1-TL-Jaeger competition, the 2-TL-Jaeger night fighters and various other projects. There's a whole host of things I would change and it would be nice to bring together all the information about jet fighters which subsequently appeared in the other volumes of the series over the years.
 

robertino

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interesting

If you look at it, it is better to treat each topic separately, as it is now

thank you for your reply ;)

P.S. whether it will be "saucers" in the plan ;D B)
 

newsdeskdan

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robertino said:
interesting

If you look at it, it is better to treat each topic separately, as it is now

thank you for your reply ;)

P.S. whether it will be "saucers" in the plan ;D B)
I've looked at, I think, about half a million pages of German aircraft manufacturer, air ministry and experimental/scientific institution documents from WW2 Germany to date and I've chased up every lead I've found about anything even remotely odd or interesting-sounding (as you will have seen from my bookazines). But I've never found any evidence of flying saucers. If I ever did find any genuine evidence, even the merest hint or tiniest scrap, I would certainly include a discussion on it at least. So far - nothing.
 

steelpillow

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The Sack SS-6 was seemingly a private venture light aircraft with circular wing and central fuselage, that failed to fly.

I have also come across a tale of one mad inventor with a project for a true flying saucer with the usual ridiculous performance estimates, that is said to have gained some interest from the odd equally mad high-ranking Nazi but was never taken up. I think it may have been someone's take on Schriever. It was accompanied by mildly degraded copies of some apparently authentic layout drawings. This does at least have an air of plausibility about it - I am prepared to believe that mad inventors existed then, as now - but sadly I cannot recall where I saw it.

Neither of these projects is said to have attracted official military development interest and so would be unlikely to appear in such archives. But then, they would not appear if they were pure fiction either.
 

robertino

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newsdeskdan said:
robertino said:
interesting

If you look at it, it is better to treat each topic separately, as it is now

thank you for your reply ;)

P.S. whether it will be "saucers" in the plan ;D B)
I've looked at, I think, about half a million pages of German aircraft manufacturer, air ministry and experimental/scientific institution documents from WW2 Germany to date and I've chased up every lead I've found about anything even remotely odd or interesting-sounding (as you will have seen from my bookazines). But I've never found any evidence of flying saucers. If I ever did find any genuine evidence, even the merest hint or tiniest scrap, I would certainly include a discussion on it at least. So far - nothing.
;D ;D

means there is no evidence for the existence of the Haunebu program or the program existed but as a draft or an idea
based on which some claim that there was a program??
 

newsdeskdan

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robertino said:
newsdeskdan said:
robertino said:
interesting

If you look at it, it is better to treat each topic separately, as it is now

thank you for your reply ;)

P.S. whether it will be "saucers" in the plan ;D B)
I've looked at, I think, about half a million pages of German aircraft manufacturer, air ministry and experimental/scientific institution documents from WW2 Germany to date and I've chased up every lead I've found about anything even remotely odd or interesting-sounding (as you will have seen from my bookazines). But I've never found any evidence of flying saucers. If I ever did find any genuine evidence, even the merest hint or tiniest scrap, I would certainly include a discussion on it at least. So far - nothing.
;D ;D

means there is no evidence for the existence of the Haunebu program or the program existed but as a draft or an idea
based on which some claim that there was a program??
No evidence that it existed at all.
 

robertino

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newsdeskdan said:
robertino said:
newsdeskdan said:
robertino said:
interesting

If you look at it, it is better to treat each topic separately, as it is now

thank you for your reply ;)

P.S. whether it will be "saucers" in the plan ;D B)
I've looked at, I think, about half a million pages of German aircraft manufacturer, air ministry and experimental/scientific institution documents from WW2 Germany to date and I've chased up every lead I've found about anything even remotely odd or interesting-sounding (as you will have seen from my bookazines). But I've never found any evidence of flying saucers. If I ever did find any genuine evidence, even the merest hint or tiniest scrap, I would certainly include a discussion on it at least. So far - nothing.
;D ;D

means there is no evidence for the existence of the Haunebu program or the program existed but as a draft or an idea
based on which some claim that there was a program??
No evidence that it existed at all.
Thanks a lot for the information
 

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Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment, assuming there was any basis in fact for the Haunebu, it might have been one of the crazier projects (or would-be project) of the SS-Waffenakademie, Brünn. Unfortunately, any surviving records that could prove or disprove this are likely in some forgotten Soviet era archive (or warehouse ;) ) in Russia.
 

newsdeskdan

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Grey Havoc said:
Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment, assuming there was any basis in fact for the Haunebu, it might have been one of the crazier projects (or would-be project) of the SS-Waffenakademie, Brünn. Unfortunately, any surviving records that could prove or disprove this are likely in some forgotten Soviet era archive (or warehouse ;) ) in Russia.
You might argue that the project papers have simply never been seen but that the project existed nevertheless. However, with a lot of projects for which the project papers themselves have disappeared there is evidence elsewhere. For example, among the papers of experimental institutions or those of the RLM - or even verbal testimony during interrogation. But there's nothing. No mention of anything like that even in passing. Without any contemporary evidence at all, it's really impossible to build any sort of convincing case for the existence of Nazi flying saucers.
 
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newsdeskdan said:
Grey Havoc said:
Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment, assuming there was any basis in fact for the Haunebu, it might have been one of the crazier projects (or would-be project) of the SS-Waffenakademie, Brünn. Unfortunately, any surviving records that could prove or disprove this are likely in some forgotten Soviet era archive (or warehouse ;) ) in Russia.
You might argue that the project papers have simply never been seen but that the project existed nevertheless. However, with a lot of projects for which the project papers themselves have disappeared there is evidence elsewhere. For example, among the papers of experimental institutions or those of the RLM - or even verbal testimony during interrogation. But there's nothing. No mention of anything like that even in passing. Without any contemporary evidence at all, it's really impossible to build any sort of convincing case for the existence of Nazi flying saucers.
Not to mention the lack of *any* credible underlying physics theories.
 
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Pasoleati

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Anyone willing to sell a copy for a fair price? It seems to be out of stock now...
 
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