Loral (Ford Aeronutronics) "HAVE DASH II"

I took the missile image right off the Have Slick page among multiple other photos of the same and similar missiles. The one shot of the drop test flight vehicle, suspended beneath an F-111 centerline is admittedly more dubious. But the concept is still there. This: \```/ is the Have Slick shape. It is also the LTDP shape. Why.

I do not see any resemblance between HAVE SLICK and the tanks or pods depicted in that artwork. Perhaps you can elaborate.

Sir, I provided pictures. It was from this sites' Have Slick page. The shapes mimicked other pictures, also from this sites' Have Slick page which showed the missiles mounted to an F-117 wind tunnel model.

Look at the rear F-22. Can you see the way the back side of the tank is cut off at an angle? Why choose that lighting angle if not to 'highlight' this since the other tank/side is fully shadowed? Does not the extremely perspective reduced lower side of the tank on the lead jet not suggest that this is a sloping/faceted face? Or do you believe the USAF have chosen a surfboard for their next EFT? Why, if a constant radius curve is also a great way to build up an edge diffraction return, does that tank have a saber-radius tip, like a pointed curve? Could it be that they wanted to maintain maximum diameter, as far forward as possible, to house an internal missile? Or is it perhaps some kind of an area-rule effect to retain supersonic capability like the French Rafale/Mirage 2000l tanks use?

Using the imagery which I provided from this site, can you not see the similarity in shaping as a 'low drag tank pylon' which the Aviationist and Drive commented upon as being a reduced signature solution because the standard, 600 gallon, wing tanks are not stealthy? Does it not make sense that this is because their cylindrical shape is subject to creeping or traveling wave wraparound and backscatter which causes the radar to see the jet?

Or are you trying to say that Have Slick had nothing to do with the shapes on display and their similarity of outline, despite a vast gulf in period 1980s and period 2020's technical VLO engineering is purely coincidental?

Because if that's what you're saying, then you're saying that shape doesn't matter.

At one point, the Have Slick was scoffed at because it interrupted the stealthy lines of the jet and 'everyone knew' external carriage of stores, let alone pyloned stores would render signature reduction pointless. Except now we have an F-22 testbed with what looks like external jammer or IRST systems containers and tanks which look almost exactly like 1980s conformal carriage 'stealth' cruise missile shapes.

No, it has never been the case that anyone who understood the technology thought that external stores would render signature reduction pointless. In fact there were multiple efforts to create external stores that had little negative effect on the signature of aircraft, and some that had positive effects. Those designs were specific to the aircraft carrying the store.

I am not certain that HAVE SLICK was ever intended to affect the RCS of the carrying aircraft. Rather, like many other conformal stealthy weapons it was to reduce the negative aerodynamic effects. Stealthy shapes in the 1980s were often high drag. Carrying conformally and removing the need for a draggy pylon reduced the negative effects of the munition.

That's an interesting opinion.

I would suggest this provides all manner of potential problems inherent to safe release and high ejector impulse flash back (pyro) or bounce back/ripple (pneumatic) effects on the stealth treated skin as airflow reasserts itself between the munition and airframe.

But if you were to do such a thing, how does this resolve drag issues on a tank which does have a separate pylon and indeed has to, to clear the LEF?

If it's a signature issue and you nest the pylon into the tank, as with say the F-14, what happens when the tank has to come off to meet acceleration profile requirements and now all the hardware (piping, sway braces, rams) is just hanging out there in the breeze?

On the F-117 wind tunnel model, from which your images were taken, the munitions are a considerable distance apart. Therefore, there is neither supersonic flow, nor radar lobe resonant cavity interactions, as USAF 'Raptor Update' most certainly suggests.

Are these fixed stores? Are you powering through on the strength of the F119 burner? Doesn't this form significant signature + persistence compromise to the /very idea/ of both 'super cruise' and what an EFT should be doing?

Or is that tank not a tank but a strong back for an ALHTK as BPI/API ballistic missile defense capability for forces fighting 'somewhere east of Cherkasy'?

Frankly, two shots worth of BMD is somewhat laughable, unless you are trying to get fall back of nuclear munitions, back onto the shooter.


Stealth is not what we were told it is. It is not shape-shape-shape-materials. It is materials only. Or materials with a very minor modifier in edge diffraction alignments. Because the F-35 is a conventional airframe shape with bulges and discontinuities all over it. And wings that have more in common with an F-5E than an F-117 or A-12.

No, because physics.
RF signature reduction is primarily shaping, There is no way around that. You can always reflect away far more energy than you can ever possibly absorb. Applying shaping to reflect radar away was the major breakthrough in the 1970s that made -20dbsm signatures no longer state of the art. This is well documented. The underlying physics is well understood.

Sigh. Lies and Truths.

When the Apollo 11 went to the Moon, them NASA boys were counting stitches in space suits. When they went back, wanna say it was...15?, weight was so inconsequential that they managed not only to bring a 460lb curb weight rover down with them but they put it's garage into the space where the nitrogen bottles had been, to supply the Aerozine 50 and N204 fuel/oxidizer, to the DPS rocket motor. Anything you can walk away from?

When stealth was new, we were told that material transition changes of a few microvolt impedance load difference between materials and levels/tolerance spacing of a millimeter or two on things like weapons bay doors could completely give the game away.

Now I am told, on a forum, by an F-35 pilot, that an AIM-9X on an external rail is 'really not much of a contributor to RCS'. This despite a 5" hole into a Cassegrain telescope like a cat's eye. And stabilization canards and tail controls with 90` angles on a round body the dimensions of which are at ideal dipole length for an X-Band resonant return. All while mounted on a LAU-151 with more gap than seal.


I do wish you fine folks would get together and get your stories straight. Stealth does not work the way you tell us. That's a lie I can accept, truthfully. Stealth doesn't work at all, now that's Pierre Sprey level lala land and it just disrupts my whole gestalt. Y'know?
 
Sir, I provided pictures. It was from this sites' Have Slick page. The shapes mimicked other pictures, also from this sites' Have Slick page which showed the missiles mounted to an F-117 wind tunnel model.

The pictures you are focusing on are not of HAVE SLICK. They are of a generic conformal weapon used for wind tunnel tests years after HAVE SLICK ended. There is no known connection between that shape and HAVE SLICK.

Or is it perhaps some kind of an area-rule effect to retain supersonic capability like the French Rafale/Mirage 2000l tanks use?

There is a program of record for an F-22 *Low Drag* Tank and Pylon. Unlike the tanks currently in use, the new tanks have lower drag and are specifically for the F-22. There is no program of record for a Low Observable Tank and Pylon. If you have public information that indicates the tanks are intended to be low observable it would be helpful to share it (in the appropriate thread)

Using the imagery which I provided from this site, can you not see the similarity in shaping as a 'low drag tank pylon' which the Aviationist and Drive commented upon as being a reduced signature solution because the standard, 600 gallon, wing tanks are not stealthy?

The Drive likes to speculate. They also like to use this forum as a source without attribution.
The Aviationist (and other sites) often use The Drive in turn as a source. The idea that the low drag tank is designed for reduced observables is speculation on their part.

This discussion is now very far off topic. If you wish to discuss the Low Drag Tank and Pylon, the F-22 thread would be more appropriate. If you wish to discuss the missile depicted in that F-22 artwork the F-22 thread, AIM-260 thread, or a new thread would be more appropriate.
 
I think you guys should set up a no holds barred discussion on any topic. I reckon you would actually get on well, better over a cup of coffee and a bun but well enough here. I believe we woukld all learn a lot.
 
To get back on topic, the book "Golden Arms" has some information and excellent photos of HAVE DASH II

 
Sorry to off topic again but:
Now I am told, on a forum, by an F-35 pilot, that an AIM-9X on an external rail is 'really not much of a contributor to RCS'. This despite a 5" hole into a Cassegrain telescope like a cat's eye. And stabilization canards and tail controls with 90` angles on a round body the dimensions of which are at ideal dipole length for an X-Band resonant return. All while mounted on a LAU-151 with more gap than seal.


I do wish you fine folks would get together and get your stories straight. Stealth does not work the way you tell us. That's a lie I can accept, truthfully. Stealth doesn't work at all, now that's Pierre Sprey level lala land and it just disrupts my whole gestalt. Y'know?

This is probably relevant:

The AIM-9X Block II-plus features specialized external materials to enhance aircraft survivability for the F-35. Until another version of the AIM-9X is developed that will fit inside the F-35's enclosed weapons bay, the AIM-9X Block II-plus has stealthy coatings and structures to help reduce the missile's radar cross-section when the F-35 carries these missiles externally.

 

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