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Loral (Ford Aeronutronics) "HAVE DASH II"

vulture

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Just wondering if anyone here has images of a futuristic stealth fighter launching a Have Dash II tri-mode seeker AAM concept.
 

overscan

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Only Have Dash images I've seen are on Andreas' website:

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/have-dash.html
 

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sferrin

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vulture said:
Hi all;

I honored and humble to be among you guys - this bunch has got to be the world's foremost aircraft experts. Just wondering if anyone here has images of the following? I've searched through the back pages of this forum and have not found them - any help you guys?

1. still images of a cone shaped (of course with wings) USAF CGI TAV that followed the SR-71.
It was featured in a video in late 1990 by the USAF as a public service T.V. ad - name of the video was "Blackbird."

2. Image of a futuristic stealth fighter launching a Have Dash II tri-mode seeker AAM concept.

3. Images of the beautiful American Jet Industries Perigrin two seat (side by side) jet trainer.

Any help on this request for images will be most appriciated by me - in advance thanks


Vulture
Different program but this sounds like #2

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3376.0/highlight,lraam.html
 

overscan

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http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_6712/is_n15_v175/ai_n28613000/

HAVE DASH II BANK-TO-TURN TECHNOLOGY MAY BE VALUABLE FOR AMRAAM
The Air Force plans to conduct four to six free flight tests of its Have Dash 11 missile starting this spring to collect data on the performance of an advanced bank-to-turn autopilot capability, which could be used as a future AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-air Missile (AMRAAM) upgrade, service officials reported.
While no stated requirement currently exists for a new air-to-air missile such as Have Dash, the program is being carried out to demonstrate a broad spectrum of technologies that could be incorporated into next generation air-to-air missiles or used as pre-planned product improvements (P31) to existing missiles, Richard Mook, chief of the service's Air-to-air Technology Integration Section at Eglin AFB, told Defense Daily in a written response to questions. The Air Force's Wright Laboratory Armament Directorate is conducting the program with Loral Aeronutronic, Newport Beach, Calif.
Have Dash's bank-to-turn capability could find its way into the AMRAAM if a variable flow ducted rocket engine is selected for AMRAAM during phase two of the P31 effort, an Air Force spokeswoman told Defense Daily. The special rocket engine, to be considered as an upgrade to AMRAAM for Lot 10 production, would use atmospheric oxygen to burn fuel, eliminating the need for AMRAAM to carry a solid oxygen source, she said.
If the variable-flow rocket engine is chosen, however, AMRAAM--a skid-to-turn missile-- would have to be converted to a bank-to-turn missile during phase three of P31, she explained.
AMRAAM program officials are watching Have Dash carefully to see if all tests are positive and if such technology can be perfected, she added.
"The key technology to be demonstrated (with Have Dash) is the modern control multivariable bank-to-turn autopilot," Mook said. "Bank-to-turn autopilot technology is required to maximize performance of future air-to-air missiles if they are asymmetric in shape due to aircraft integration considerations or because they have airbreathing propulsion."
The program also will test the missile's advanced processor, fin and lug folding ability, advanced control actuator and composite airframe, Mook said. Extensive Have Dash wind tunnel and required flight qualification testing has been carried out, as well as captive carriage compatibility flight testing to demonstrate the missile's structural integrity, aircraft electrical compatibility and aircraft handling qualities, Mook added.
Have Dash II is comprised of an ALM-7E rocket motor, advanced guidance navigation and control computer, AIM-120 inertial measurement unit, fin and launch lug folding mechanisms, high performance electro-mechanical control actuation system and advanced bank-to-turn autopilot. The basic missile airframe was developed during the Have Dash I program conducted by the laboratory in 1985-88.
"The Have Dash missile concept was developed with a heavy emphasis on efficient integration with advanced launch aircraft," Mook said. "This means that carriage of the weapons must not impact the aircraft's flight performance or survivability. Therefore, the Have Dash airframe is designed for low-drag conformal external carriage and also combat internal carriage ... also compatible with more conventional pylon carriage arrangements."
In addition, Mook said a series of projects currently are being considered to enhance Have Dash's electronics assemblies to make the weapon more state-of-the-art. This would reduce the number of parts in the weapon and inherently improve producibility and reliability, he said, noting that contracts have not yet been awarded for these projects.
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/have-dash.html
 

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CJGibson

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Am I correct in thinking that "bank-to-turn" is similar to "twist-and-steer" and "polar control" or am I thick?

Chris
 

RP1

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Kind of. B2T uses lift generated by the missile shape. Banking changes the direction of the lift and thus turns the missile. It is polar in concept.

RP1
 

CJGibson

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Kind of thick or kind of similar? Just sounds like Brakemine and Bloodhound to me.

Chris
 

overscan

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Bank to turn means an aeroplane-like configuration missile with wings (or lifting body) configured to give lift strongly in one plane, the control surfaces generally tail mounted but are not necessarily cruciform. It was mostly associated with ramjet engines which have intakes with low tolerance for sideslip - essentially it needs to turn like a plane to keep air going in the intake. Control is generally harder to do than with a normal cruciform missile arrangement.


Examples - ASALM, Hughes AAAM.


Twist and steer is essentially the same thing, but specifically uses differential wing movement to bank and synchronized wing movement to turn. Bank to turn can use other control surfaces to achieve the banking and turning, not the wings. So twist and steer is one type of bank to turn design.


Examples: Bloodhound, Bomarc.
 

aim9xray

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Some Have Dash II images are attached. The Have Dash I effort included conceptual studies (building on ERMAAT studies, but stepping back from the longer range EMRAAT flight profiles), wind tunnel testing and RCS testing, and ground qualification testing. The period of performance was 1985-88. The follow-on Have Dash II project started in 1989 and culminated in the construction of three Fight Test Vehicles (FTV). The test missiles were originally planned to be launched from the F-111; retirement of the aircraft after Desert Storm required the transition to an F-16 test asset with a modified stores pylon (replicating the originally planned F-111 interface). Although the FTVs were all intended to be recoverable, all three were expended for different causes, after one flight each. The program concluded in late 1992 with the loss of the last FTV.
 

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pathology_doc

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Why not just turn out Have Dash II as a service weapon, rather than waste extra time and $$$$ incorporating its technology into next-gen AMRAAM?
 

TomS

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Because it probably wasn't designed as a production missile. Hand-made tech demonstrators don't always translate neatly into productionized operational systems.

Moving the autopilot tech into an existing missile design would likely be a lot less expensive than fielding an entirely new missile.

Also, there wasn't really a platform that needed a stealthy AAM for external carriage, so there wasn't much benefit to be gained from the trapezoidal fuselage shape, which was surely more expensive than a simple cylinder like AMRAAM.
 

bring_it_on

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Sliding mode control of HAVE DASH II missile systems


https://www.scribd.com/doc/259436951/Have-Dash-II?secret_password=MMoiI7gnoTxUbdzs4bvg

MODERN CONTROL BANK-T0-TURN AUTOPILOT FOR HAVE DASH II MISSILE

https://www.scribd.com/doc/259437222/Bank-HaveDashII?secret_password=O2D879QjPAKxJpbgBWhg

Missile Endgame Analysis

https://www.scribd.com/doc/259437372/Missile-Endgame-Analysis?secret_password=YIMBsqlZmCuhh7vJ4YEH
 

Empire

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Would have been a good missile for a stealthified F-15 MDD was rumored to have worked on in the late 80's or early 90's. Just in case the f-22 did not work out.
 

quellish

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Empire said:
Would have been a good missile for a stealthified F-15 MDD was rumored to have worked on in the late 80's or early 90's. Just in case the f-22 did not work out.

Why do you say that?
 

Empire

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Well the composite body and trapezoidal shape reduced the missile's RCS.


As for the low observable F-15 in the Aerospace section under the post Boeing bullish over F-18 and future programs in the article Not quite invisible a Boeing engineer told aviation week that the company (probably the Phantom works when they where owned by MDD. Boeing just took credit like they did with BOP after the merger) modified an F-15 during the late 80's or early 90's to reduce RCS. Its RCS the engineer claimed was close to the F-22.

I would think that RCS claim would be from the front quadrant with heavy modifications. Maybe (and this is just me speculating) a new wing with edge alignment like on the F-15U, radar blockers in the air intakes like on the B-1B, canted vertical stabilizers, redesigned radome, and RAM. Fire Eagle.
Could the mystery YF-24 be this aircraft as it fell between ATF and JSF.


So the Have Dash missile would have allowed flush external carriage on such a modified design. Who knows???
 

quellish

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Empire said:
Well the composite body and trapezoidal shape reduced the missile's RCS.



Shaping may have reduced the *missiles* RCS, but it is unlikely that it was a good thing for the aircraft RCS. Carrying a "stealthy" weapon conformally (or not) on an aircraft will rarely lower the RCS of the aircraft+weapon, and more often than not increases it. Imagine HAVE DASH II carried externally on an F-117. The edges of the missile and the aircraft would not align - which would create additional spikes in the radar return. For an external store to mitigate the impact on the overall RCS of aircraft+store it would need to be optimized for the particular aircraft carrying it. This is one of the reasons the conformal weapons programs of the 80s and 90s did not result in production, and why solutions like the Boeing F-18E weapons pod are favorable. The Boeing pod is optimized for that aircraft, and does not require specialized weapons.
 

Empire

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quellish said:
Empire said:
Well the composite body and trapezoidal shape reduced the missile's RCS.



Shaping may have reduced the *missiles* RCS, but it is unlikely that it was a good thing for the aircraft RCS. Carrying a "stealthy" weapon conformally (or not) on an aircraft will rarely lower the RCS of the aircraft+weapon, and more often than not increases it. Imagine HAVE DASH II carried externally on an F-117. The edges of the missile and the aircraft would not align - which would create additional spikes in the radar return. For an external store to mitigate the impact on the overall RCS of aircraft+store it would need to be optimized for the particular aircraft carrying it. This is one of the reasons the conformal weapons programs of the 80s and 90s did not result in production, and why solutions like the Boeing F-18E weapons pod are favorable. The Boeing pod is optimized for that aircraft, and does not require specialized weapons.



Good point quellish probably wouldn't have worked. On another note do you have any info or is there a post in this forum on this supposed stealthy F-15. If not it maybe a good post to start?
 

dumpster4

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According to:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/261556288/ramjet-bvraam-used-in-gulf-war-combat

Some of the "Have Dash" technology may have been used in combat:

"Under a "black" programme the US Department of Defense has developed a ramjet‐powered beyond‐visual range air‐to‐air missile (BVRAAM). The weapon was
deployed to the Gulf in 1990‐91 for use by a single USAF F‐15 squadron, Jane's Missiles & Rockets has been told. It was used in combat, downing at least one Iraqi
aircraft whose destruction was officially credited to another type of missile."

"The concept of applying air‐breathing propulsion to an AMRAAM‐class weapon was also investigated in the late 1980s and early 1990s under two USAF "black"
programmes code named "Have Dash 1" and "Have Dash 2"."


But if a weapon like this existed, wouldn't we have heard more about it by now? Is this missile just a military urban legend?
 

flateric

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USAF Have Dash II Missile Desktop Model

Description:
This Have Dash II model was produced by Loral's Aeronutronic Division for award to USAF program personnel and flight test team members. The composition of the model is unknown, but likely the fuselage is wood and the fins are plastic or aluminum. The base is solid hardwood and the support arm is acrylic. The missile is detachable from the base.
Please see my other listings for additional Have Dash II and other missile memorabilia.
Included in Sale:
One (1) Missile Model with Stand
One (1) Sew-On Patch
One (1) Large Sticker
Model Dimensions (excluding base) :
Length: 14-1/8"
Width: 2-1/4"
Height: 2"
Sew-On Patch Dimensions
Length: 4-1/2"
Width: 3-1/2"
Large Sticker Patch Dimensions
Length: 4-1/2"
Width: 3-1/2"
Condition:
The missile model is in excellent condition, with no scratches or fading. Missile model was never issued, but the original box was damaged.The sticker and patch are new.
Have Dash Program Summary:
Have Dash I was a classified project to develop an air-to-air missile for use by stealth aircraft. The concept, developed by the USAF Armament Laboratory at Eglin AFB between 1985 and 1988. Have Dash II, initiated in 1990, was a renewed effort to develop a stealthy air-to-air missile, intended to be used by the Advanced Tactical Fighter - the YF-22 and YF-23 - and to replace the AIM-120 AMRAAM in service.
Have Dash II was designed with a composite body, trapezoidal in shape. This was intended both to reduce the missile's radar-cross-section and to resist heat at hypersonic speeds, as the missile was intended to operate at Mach 5. The body shape also allowed flush external carriage aboard the launching aircraft, and provided aerodynamic lift, making the missile more maneuverable.
The prototype Have Dash II missiles were recoverable, and utilized Rocketdyne Mk 58 solid-fueled rocket motors of the same type used by the AIM-7 Sparrow. Production missiles were expected to be powered by a ramjet engine, and would use inertial navigation during the cruise phase of flight, with a dual-mode infrared/active radar seeker head for terminal guidance.
Flight testing of the prototype Have Dash II missiles was expected to begin in 1992; testing was conducted with the missile being considered for further testing of advanced air-to-air missile concepts.
Length 3.6 m (12 ft)
Weight 180 kg (400 lb.)
Speed Mach 4
Range 50 km (30 miles)
Propulsion MK 58 MOD 5 solid-fueled rocket
 

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elmayerle

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vulture said:
Just wondering if anyone here has images of a futuristic stealth fighter launching a Have Dash II tri-mode seeker AAM concept.
is this referring to the two-page spread that was used in ad in an old AW&ST issue? Somewhere I think I have some lithographs of that, and the companion cutaway illustration, that I got from Loral at the time.
 

Maury Markowitz

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CJGibson said:
Kind of thick or kind of similar? Just sounds like Brakemine and Bloodhound to me.
twist-n-steer uses the missile's wings for lift and generally has a cylindrical fuselage that adds little or no lift

bank-to-turn has no wings and uses the asymmetric shape of the missile fuselage for lift

They are similar only in that both require the missile to rotate to a given angle before they can maneuver.

Bloodhound was unique in that the wings rotated independently, in contrast to most missiles where the wings are fixed to the fuselage and the entire missile has to rotate into the apparent wind in order to generate lift. This puts it in a sort of intermediate group of its own, perhaps relegating Brakemine to "twist-n-bank"?
 

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quellish said:
Empire said:
Well the composite body and trapezoidal shape reduced the missile's RCS.
Shaping may have reduced the *missiles* RCS, but it is unlikely that it was a good thing for the aircraft RCS. Carrying a "stealthy" weapon conformally (or not) on an aircraft will rarely lower the RCS of the aircraft+weapon, and more often than not increases it. Imagine HAVE DASH II carried externally on an F-117. The edges of the missile and the aircraft would not align - which would create additional spikes in the radar return. For an external store to mitigate the impact on the overall RCS of aircraft+store it would need to be optimized for the particular aircraft carrying it. This is one of the reasons the conformal weapons programs of the 80s and 90s did not result in production, and why solutions like the Boeing F-18E weapons pod are favorable. The Boeing pod is optimized for that aircraft, and does not require specialized weapons.
Conformal missiles really belong to the "supercruise with reduced RCS" era. Its a lower drag solution to weapons carriage without the space and weight penalty of an internal bay. With the advent of stealth, the RCS penalty of conformal missiles became unacceptable.
 
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