Long road to the F-111: TAC, SOR.183, SDR 17, WS-324A, TFX

devi

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" F-111A"----------------------------------------------------"F-111B"
1) Boeing Model 818-----------------------------------------------------Model 818N
2) General Dynamics/Convair-Grumman: GD/C Model ?--------Grumman Model 310------F-111A/B
3) Lockheed Model CL-?-------------------------------------------------Model CL-?
4) McDonnell (Together with Douglas) Model ?-----------------Model ?
5) North American Model NA-? (or ?)--------------------------------Model NA-/ (or ?)
6) Republic (Together with Vought) Model AP-?----------------Model AP-?

Please show figures, 3-view drawings and design specifications of following projects:
Lockheed TFX
McDonnell TFX
North American TFX
Republic TFX
 

Pioneer

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Great pictures that I have not seen before of the Republic submission for TFX (its always been the Fokker-Republic D-24 design). What are the pictures from? Is there any interesting info with the pics???

Also where are the pics for the General Dynamics models from???
Any more info in this book about the Model 1000 or the GD/Grumman design ?????

Regards
Pioneer
 

Sundog

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Also, do you have any info on a design that Scott (Orionblamblam) had at his site of a plane that looks like a single seat small F-111?
 

overscan

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More Boeing 818.

The Boeing design was the preferred design, for the air force at least, but the naval and air force designs were very different and this didn't suit the "single design" TFX program that McNamara was intent on.
 

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Matej

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Pioneer said:
What are the pictures from? Is there any interesting info with the pics???
Its always problem for me to mention the source, because almost all my archive is in electronic form and in the past I didnt take care, from where is this and this. In fact I dont use my physicaly existing books at all. There is information generally about TFX development, but nothing special about Republic proposal.
 

lark

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Pictures are the same as in "General Dynamics F-111"
by Jay Miller. Aero Series No 29 - AeroPublishers Inc.1981
The pic of the Republic contender is also in this book
(and in Aerofiles...)
 

Orionblamblam

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Matej said:
Pioneer said:
What are the pictures from? Is there any interesting info with the pics???
Its always problem for me to mention the source, because almost all my archive is in electronic form and in the past I didnt take care, from where is this and this.
The Republic designs are from my article in APR.
 

Skybolt

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The TFX competition is one of those examples of apparently very well known events and actually much misunderstood ones. Just to give you a few examples: we haven't a single three-view draft of the McDonnell proposals; there is no known illustration of the Navy version of either the Republic (the mock-up is clearly the Air Force one) and the McDonnell proposals; both the GD and the Boeing illustrated proposals are related to the second design iteration, the first saw all the proposals rejected; nothing is known regarding the studies leading up to the TFX, in particular what the companies did for the original concept drafted by the Air Force, i.e. a follow-on of the Thud with a larg(er) internal store, mach 1.2 at sea level and short take off (and no compatibility with carriers). For what I mean of the last, take a look in the Jay Miller's magnificent B-58 book (second edition) at what GD thought in circa 1959 for a follow-on of the Hustler...
We all hope that Tony Butler will uncover something, but as he is asking this forum for help I think that this will remain a wish. To all American members: is it so difficult to ask for the release of the competion official documents? We have to refer only to disappearing (disappeared) company archives? Did Scott uncover something re the McDonnell submission when he visited the Boeing archives?
End of the rumblings. Good night :(
 

devi

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Hallo Matej!
Show us please APR V2N2:
Republic TFX and Republic-Fokker D-24 Alliance.
 

overscan

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Matej has posted drawings already. If you want the whole APR issue, I'd contact Orionblamblam aka Scott Lowther, as he wrote and published APR.

Please see Forum Rules No. 2):
Don't post whole articles- aviation writers need to make a living.
 

Orionblamblam

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Skybolt said:
To all American members: is it so difficult to ask for the release of the competion official documents?
It's easy to ask. You can ask all you want. But most documentation has been burned, shredded, thrown away. Sometimes you can get lucky with a FOIA request to the DTIC.

Did Scott uncover something re the McDonnell submission when he visited the Boeing archives?
No. Boeing has scads of stuff on their Model 818 submission, of which I only got a tiny bit (had other priorities). I think somewhere I have a NASA wind tunnel report on the McD design.
 

elmayerle

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I do know where the Boeing low-speed tunnel model ended up after they lost. However, it's been some 34-35 years since I saw it and I've no idea if it's still there.
 

Antonio

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Hallo Devi,

You'll find Scott Lowther's work here

http://www.up-ship.com/apr/aprorder.htm

I'll hope you'll agree with me that it's a wonderful work... So, please support writers ;)
 

Skybolt

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No evidence, that Lockheed and North American submitted proposals.
That's the same I thought until 15 minutes ago. Pruning my Windows desktop (some 400 files displayed there...) I found an interesting RAND study I downloaded a couple of months ago. Its title is " Bomber R&D. The role of experience" and covers the influence that perceived (by politcians, USAF officers and decision makers at large) experience in specific aircraft-engineering fields has had on the results of procurement contests in the US. Much focus is on the bombers field, but some coverage is devoted to fighters too. Contents are not extremely interesting (sources are all public, expecially works by the likes of Jay Miller, Bill Gunston, Sweetman, etc.) BUT there are some snippets of very interesting, even intriguing information. One is that the TFX RFP was answered by General Dynamics, Boeing, McDonnel, Republic (and all goes well till now), Chance-Vought, Grumman, Douglas (these were coupled with Republic, GD and McDonnel respectively) AND Lockeed AND North American. The info comes from "Post World-War II fighter", by Marcelle Size Knaack,, published in 1978 by the Office of Air Force History. Intrigued, I did some googleing around, and found here http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmcnarmara.htm (it's a not much sympathetic biography of McNamara) the same, specifying that both NA and Lockeed (and Boeing) submitted individual proposals. So, the TFX history complicates a bit...
 

Skybolt

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Searched the NA Model Number list in Vol.2 of North American Aircraft by Kevin Thompson. No number available in the 1961-62 time frame, except a number that is said to have been assigned to missile projects is really the NA TFX submission (must be before the NA-295, which is the NA VAL program submission, a version of the T-2 Buckeye???)
 

devi

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I do not know purpose of project NA-289, and there can be it was North American TFX.
 

Skybolt

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Confusion calls confusion, but that's the exciting of the thing... Reading the much maligned Docavia "Les Avions Grumman 1929-1989" (actually looking for something else) I encountered another snippet of information: is seems that BEFORE entering in agreement with GD on the TFX submission (Grumman model G-310), Grumman had offered his own proposal to SOR-183 (USAF-only replacement of F-105) and, behold, we have a model number! It's G-283, submitted May 1960. So the citation from the RAND study refers perhaps to this proposal. Ther Lockeed-TSR-2 linkage is REALLY intriguing, BTW. There was a lot of collaboration between USA and UK at the end of the '50s regarding variable geometry (e.g. NASA tunnel tested the Swallow), so it makes a lot of sense.
 

devi

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Hi Skybolt.
If is in the book " Les Avions Grumman 1929-1989 " full list of projects numbers, please show us.
 

Skybolt

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No list of projects in the Grumman book, sorry. Moreover, the Grumman nomenclature is very different from, e.g. the Vought's one. In the Grumman system projects are grouped in a single Model Number cosidering the technical/specification links. For example, the G-98 and G-128 model number comprise more that 40 different aircraft.
 

devi

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Hi Skybolt.
If there are in the book " Les Avions Grumman 1929-1989 " projects Grumman G-86 and G-92, please show us their 3-view drawings, figure and specifications.
 

Skybolt

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Nothing, null, niente, nihil, pas de.... (not a really exciting book, indeed...)
 

TinWing

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Skybolt said:
No number available in the 1961-62 time frame, except a number that is said to have been assigned to missile projects is really the NA TFX submission (must be before the NA-295, which is the NA VAL program submission, a version of the T-2 Buckeye???)
I though the North American VAL proposal was based on the yet another version of the FJ-4 Fury?
 

Skybolt

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Yes, so it is said, but any image of it? My was an alternative hypotheses :D
 

Matej

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devi said:
unidentified TFX/F-111
Seems to me more like concept drawing from some magazine, how variable geometry wing aircraft should look like. If not, than see the arrangement of wing - it is delta with movable parts, that are folding above delta wing. Someting like on proposal from Republic.
 

Hood

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Hello my first post here.

I've been trying to find information of these TFX contenders for some time. Any chance anyone could post some limited data on some of these types? Dimensions, engines, armament and estimated speed and ranges so I can make a comparison.

Thanks in advance.
 

Skybolt

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We were hoping YOU could provide something !!! :D Fun apart, this is the great catch in the secret projects research business... dimensional, engine type, etc etc etc. As for the TFX, some data are available fro the Boeing and Republic ones. Engine were almost always TF30s (except Boeing, AFAIK).
 

devi

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Hi TsrJoe.

This drawing from old Soviet magazine: Aviatsia i kosmonavtika ( Number and year I do not remember ) and about TFX/F-111 only the drawing.

I think this project (If existed) of firm North American ( or firms Boeing ).
 

devi

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Hi Skybolt

You have told, that: "It's G-283, submitted May 1960."

and there it is told( http://prototypes.free.fr/f111b/f111b-1.htm ) :"Les constructeurs qui travaillaient depuis plus d'un an sur le programme furent contraints de se réorganiser. Grumman, qui avait proposé le G-273 en mai 1960 dans le cadre du TFX, fut contacté par General Dynamics (anciennement Convair/Consolidated Vultee) qui n'avait qu'une expérience très limitée avec le Bureau of Weapons de l'US Navy (BuWeps)."

What of them correct?---- G-273 or G-283 ?
 

Skybolt

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Good question.... I'd bet 283, since I think Prototypes has copied from Docavia, mistyping...
 

devi

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Hi Skybolt

Many thanks for the information.
 

Akaikaze

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:mad:
Boeing got SOOO screwed in that deal. Robert McNamara and GD should have seen jail time for pulling that one.
 
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