Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

Avimimus said:
I'm honestly not sure. The complexity of avionics and engines is very high (almost all of the 'moving parts'). The ability to engineer an airframe and new aerodynamics is getting easier over time.

If the airframe is holding back a willingness to update avionics, weapons, or engine then offering an improved airframe could be a relatively easy and necessary step for opening up the possibility of further investments in the program.

The question is the cost/capability calculation regarding avionics, weapons, engines... what to add, what level of capability, and what alternatives.
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This is certainly true. It seems to me the path to a truly competent sixth generation air dominance fighter would be a new fuselage for the F-35. The Navy did this with the FA-18 family and got the very competent E/F/G (Although they didn't cure the range issues the way they should have).
How difficult would it be to create the fifth generation fighter we should have had with the F-35 if it hadn't had to be spread across three different versions for three different services?
Having said that I suspect the F-35, exactly as it is, is the fifth generation fighter that India wishes they had right now. F-35 Pilots, almost all of them, insist it's an amazing aircraft.
 
FighterJock said:
I think that it is time to order more F-35Bs then see about ordering some F-35As.
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Assuming the UK doesn't have any F-35As on hand no doubt having a squadron or two would be handy as they have a much greater payload capacity than the F-35B.
 
FighterJock said:
One solution would be is to lock the workers in a room until they can agree.
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I think those types of work practises passed away with the last century, at least in the US...

NMaude said:
Assuming the UK doesn't have any F-35As on hand no doubt having a squadron or two would be handy as they have a much greater payload capacity than the F-35B.
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Zero chance of an F-35A order from the UK and I'm not sure why people keep suggesting it.
 
NMaude said:
Assuming the UK doesn't have any F-35As on hand no doubt having a squadron or two would be handy as they have a much greater payload capacity than the F-35B.
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We'll be getting another 27 in Tranche 2...then that should be it. All monies go to Typhoon MLU, Unmanned, GCAP and F-35 upgrades post that point...and that accounts for the next 15 years..

Adding another type, which F-35A is, would vastly increase operating costs....if ordered now they wouldn't arrive and actually be operational until the early 2030's...and remember the vastly more capable GCAP arrives from 2035, which will consume funds, and crucially personnel...not just pilots and maintainers, but doctrine, training, tactics, project etc etc.
 
starviking said:
I think the RN might see this as the thin end of the wedge for an eventual RAF divestment of Bs - leaving the RN high and dry.
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I think it would be the other way around....RAF are scared if they went down that route, or remove focus from the B, that the RN could make the logical case that F-35B, with its associated budget, should be assigned totally to them....particularly as the likely total buy of 74, opposed to the still touted (but utterly untrue) 138 means that Carrier Strike and a limited land based Expeditionary Capability inevitably becomes the main focus of the fleet....one of which is definitely the RN's area, and the other could reasonably be as well alongside the RM, ship based long ranged fires etc...and with the RAF's investment in heavyweight AAR in the form of Voyager, future unmanned capabilities and GCAP's emphasis on extreme range (allied with increased range air launched stand off munitions on the way) its a fairly reasonable position....as the RAF appears to be pivoting to a force that (sensibly) will launch from increasing distances from the enemy on main bases.
 
timmymagic said:
I think it would be the other way around....RAF are scared if they went down that route, or remove focus from the B, that the RN could make the logical case that F-35B, with its associated budget, should be assigned totally to them....particularly as the likely total buy of 74, opposed to the still touted (but utterly untrue) 138 means that Carrier Strike and a limited land based Expeditionary Capability inevitably becomes the main focus of the fleet....one of which is definitely the RN's area, and the other could reasonably be as well alongside the RM, ship based long ranged fires etc...and with the RAF's investment in heavyweight AAR in the form of Voyager, future unmanned capabilities and GCAP's emphasis on extreme range (allied with increased range air launched stand off munitions on the way) its a fairly reasonable position....as the RAF appears to be pivoting to a force that (sensibly) will launch from increasing distances from the enemy on main bases.
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138 is the UK Government's official committed number so not "touted" and not "utterly untrue".
 
138 is also quoted for the number of F-35s ordered on the official F-35 website timmimagic, then that is the number that I am going to go with until it is set in stone.
 
That’s nice, but a lot of that is for forsakes and that probably just equals J20 production in the same time frame. That’s why I think the CCA program is critical: the U.S. needs to be producing a lot more platforms that can still present a credible threat, even if they are not cutting edge.
 
Josh_TN said:
hat’s nice, but a lot of that is for forsakes and that probably just equals J20 production in the same time frame.
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What is the J-20 production rate. How has it trended over the last 5-10 years. How do I establish it with high confidence? And if indeed you can verify J-20 production at 200+ a year, why do you then think they won't be able to beat the US CCA production per year by a similar factor to maintain a 2-1 or 3-1 numerical edge over US's annual buy rate? Or worst?
 
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bring_it_on said:
What is the J-20 production rate. How has it trended over the last 5-10 years. How do I establish it with high confidence? And if indeed you can verify J-20 production at 200+ a year, why do you then think they won't be able to beat the US CCA production per year by a similar factor to maintain a 2-1 or 3-1 numerical edge over US's annual buy rate? Or worst?
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To the first part, I think most anyone agrees j-20 production is over a hundred. It is hard to verify such numbers, but i doubt anyone on this forum thinks j-20 production is less than a hundred, and I suspect my number is closer.

To your second point: because CCA production would be on top of manned fighter production, and because I there is an obvious potential, if not intent, of producing multiple types from multiple production lines and manufacturers, I think the U.S. can achieve economy of scale with CCA that it cannot with manned aircraft. And moreover that this expansion of airframes do not require an expansion of pilots and the associated time and money costs, or even tactics associated with a manned aircraft.
 
Josh_TN said:
I think most anyone agrees j-20 production is over a hundred. It is hard to verify such numbers
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Sorry, I did not ask what others thought about production numbers but for some specific evidence and the confidence level in that assessment. I assumed given your prior post you actually had a fairly good idea with high degree of confidence level rather than "ask anybody what it is and they will tell you the same".. I have not yet seen GOTUS assessment of it. Nor have any other assessments conclusively established a number with a high degree of confidence. It is not something that is easy to do especially if there are active measures at making this hard But that clearly doesn't stop folks from throwing numbers out there. In the very recent media articles, I have seen 60 / year and 150 or so per year on forums and from so called OSINT experts. Are these accurate? Are these off? Is the true number 300 a year ? Perhaps. I don't know and cannot conclusively establish it. But neither can most even those who speak as if they are confident that they know it.

Josh_TN said:
I there is an obvious potential, if not intent, of producing multiple types from multiple production lines and manufacturers, I think the U.S. can achieve economy of scale with CCA that it cannot with manned aircraft
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You claimed that J-20 is sitting at 220 / year. What's stopping China from also doing multiple production lines of CCA and out producing US by 3 to one? If they are out buying the US 2-3 to one when it comes to fifth gen aircraft they can do even better on CCA. Of course their build and buy rates cannot be substantiated conclusively though I'm sure others here and on social media and other 'forums' have strong opinions..you say that US can have CCA's be built by multiple OEM's to maximize production volumes. Why can't China do the same? If the argument is that CCA shift will allow US to narrow the numerical gap between annual production and intake to China, assuming the latter is building 150-220 J-20's a year as is being claimed, then the gap will only grow with a much cheaper and simpler to design and produce CCA class shift.
 
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NMaude said:
True but Aussie politicians might decide otherwise.
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Did you read the article I linked? Aussie politicians made that decision and the current govt was just re-elected. They have at most three years to continue their stated direction. The opposition wanted to acquire the additional 28 aircraft to get to 100 but they were soundly beaten and unlikely to form a winning Govt at the next election.
 
bring_it_on said:
You claimed that J-20 is sitting at 220 / year. What's stopping China from also doing multiple production lines of CCA and out producing US by 3 to one? If they are out buying the US 2-3 to one when it comes to fifth gen aircraft they can do even better on CCA. Of course their build and buy rates cannot be substantiated conclusively though I'm sure others here and on social media and other 'forums' have strong opinions..you say that US can have CCA's be built by multiple OEM's to maximize production volumes. Why can't China do the same? If the argument is that CCA shift will allow US to narrow the numerical gap between annual production and intake to China, assuming the latter is building 150-220 J-20's a year as is being claimed, then the gap will only grow with a much cheaper and simpler to design and produce CCA class shift.
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I think the U.S. is ahead of China with regards to airframes at ~10,000 lb MTOW that can carry a useful warload and avionics fit. There are almost a half dozen articles flying in this class, and notably they all use an off the shelf engine, something China still seems to struggle with comparatively. I also get the impression the U.S. is in front of China in terms of software and control, though this could just be due to the opacity of PRC UAV programs.

In any case I think it would be more accurate to say not that the US will take the lead but that it is likely the only way it might.
 
Forest Green said:
Be interesting to know if it was carrying an external load.

www.twz.com

F-35 Had To Maneuver To Evade Houthi Surface-To-Air Missile: U.S. Official

The incident took place during Operation Rough Rider, the enhanced bombing campaign against the Houthis launched by Trump on March 15.
www.twz.com www.twz.com
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Or even what the whole Situation was.
Shot by larger Klub like Sams or more in line with Manpads. External Loads or maybe other non stealth jet in formation? Did they pilot make mistakes to create the solution or do we have a problem in the comand structure which where planing the strike? So many question but no real answers
 
kqcke for you said:
Or even what the whole Situation was.
Shot by larger Klub like Sams or more in line with Manpads. External Loads or maybe other non stealth jet in formation? Did they pilot make mistakes to create the solution or do we have a problem in the comand structure which where planing the strike? So many question but no real answers
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Houthis are certain to operate either Raad(that one is essentially certain) or even Sevom Khordad, we saw Sayaad and Taer missiles(under local names).
Raad is outright IR/vis only, pure non emitting guerilla ambush SAM.

Plus of course the famous photo of growler loaded with AARGMs.
 
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Lockheed-Martin has just released another short F-35 ad:


You’re an F-35 pilot patrolling on the outskirts of a sprawling coastal city. A hostile force is closing in on the coastline. That's where the F-35 comes in. The F-35 is a command center in the sky. It provides a clear tactical picture of enemy positions, relayed real time to your team on the ground.
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NMaude said:
Lockheed-Martin has just released another short F-35 ad:

You’re an F-35 pilot patrolling on the outskirts of a sprawling coastal city. A hostile force is closing in on the coastline. That's where the F-35 comes in. The F-35 is a command center in the sky. It provides a clear tactical picture of enemy positions, relayed real time to your team on the ground.
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Does Lockheed Martin know that when a hostile force closes on your coastline many things went very wrong? I'd like to know what their marketing/PR people get paid to come up with the clear pinnacle of advertisement.
 
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EmoBirb said:
Does Lockheed Martin that when a hostile force closes on your coastline many things went very wrong? I'd like to know what their marketing/PR people get paid to come up with the clear pinnacle of advertisement.
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That's a very good question but unfortunately I don't have the answer.
 
EmoBirb said:
Does Lockheed Martin know that when a hostile force closes on your coastline many things went very wrong? I'd like to know what their marketing/PR people get paid to come up with the clear pinnacle of advertisement.
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Sort of obvious...
But there's also places where the coastline of a potential enemy is right next to your coastline. Or there might not be any significant water areas in between.
 
Forest Green said:
www.twz.com

How The Houthis' Rickety Air Defenses Threaten Even The F-35

Highly mobile Houthi SAM systems and ones that use passive infrared sensors present a vexing problem for even advanced U.S. combat aircraft.
www.twz.com www.twz.com
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I don't think "had to maneuver" means almost shot down which seems to be implied here. It seems to me like some maneuvering is a good call even if the SAM is at the edge of its flight envelope or likely to be defeated by countermeasures.

I guess I'm simply doubting that the F-35 was having to pull Gs like the pilot was doing a Wild Weasel mission back in 1972.
 

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